Differences between CoH and CoV missions?

[Hardboiled Hero]

  So I recall hero a long time ago (probably shortly after CoV released) that the missions for CoH and CoV were designed slightly differently.  Specifically I recall some mention that the numbers and levels of mobs were typically different.  I don't remember which way it went, but for example the discussion would have been that CoH typically has more mobs in each mission, while CoV typically has high level mobs.  Of course there was also the thing where CoV missions got a slight change to turn most of the "defeat archvillian" missions into "defeat archvillian and guards" in order to deal with the stalker.  Does anyone know what I'm talking about?  Are the missions on each side still different (not just liking the story of one side better or worse)? were they ever?

[Lunar Ronin]

Mob spawns are (and have been), the same on both sides.  Just the mobs on red side tend to be a little more difficult.  Longbow, Arachnos, and Snakes, oh my!

[FFFF]

I don't think there's a difference in mob density. As @Lunar Ronin mentioned, the red side mobs are more difficult. CoV came out a year after CoH and the devs definitely learned a lot. The missions are honestly richer. The stories are better (yes, even though you are often times an evil minion of someone more powerful). Even the contacts are more flavorful. Compare Doc Buzzsaw or Television with a contact like Steven Sheridan or Cadao Kestrel. CoV, if I'm not mistaken, introduced elements like ambushes, cut scenes and more varied mission objectives. You also have less free 13 lawyers from the Devouring Earth or find 11 relics in Oranbega type missions.

 

I think CoV's unpopularity simply boils down to the fact that most players (me included) like playing the good guys in a superhero MMO. Mercy Island is rather depressing compared with Atlas Park which is not only buzzing with player activity, but gives off an uplifting feeling.

[Crysis]

Long before Null the Gull….

 

I can still remember my first time having to go hero>vigilante>rogue>villain and back again over a couple of weeks just to earn an unlock of Patron Pools and get Shadow Meld on my nerfed Regen scrapper.  The missions were MUCH darker compared to blue side and actually required me to kill/assassinate certain targets rather than arresting them.

 

I felt very…..dirty.

 

 

[Sunsette]

15 hours ago, Hardboiled Hero said:

  So I recall hero a long time ago (probably shortly after CoV released) that the missions for CoH and CoV were designed slightly differently.  Specifically I recall some mention that the numbers and levels of mobs were typically different.  I don't remember which way it went, but for example the discussion would have been that CoH typically has more mobs in each mission, while CoV typically has high level mobs.  Of course there was also the thing where CoV missions got a slight change to turn most of the "defeat archvillian" missions into "defeat archvillian and guards" in order to deal with the stalker.  Does anyone know what I'm talking about?  Are the missions on each side still different (not just liking the story of one side better or worse)? were they ever?

 

There are slight differences in style. Old blueside maps are likely to be larger, more likely to be defeat alls, and more likely to only have one enemy group. Some groups in old redside have slightly different group composition, like the meat doctors in the Freaks, and are slightly more likely to have ambushes.

 

These differences are less noticeable than they used to be because newer missions on all content (including gold side) make these changes even more dramatically. 

[Worm_Kalpa]

Echoing what everyone else already said, plus adding a few of my own.  I played mainly red- and goldside when the game was live and only really explored blueside in the last year or so.

 

• Redside mission goal descriptions are more straightforward.  For example, it will be explicit if it is a defeat all or not.  Blueside mission goal descriptions can be ambiguous sometimes, such as it might be a defeat all without saying so
• Speaking of mission goals, redside rescue missions involve bringing the captive back to the mission exit whereas older blueside rescue missions do not and just require you to defeat their captors
• Much to my disappointment as a temporary power collector, some blueside missions that give you a temp power either remove it at the end of the mission or you have a time limit for how long you can keep it (different than how long you can have it active)
• In general, redside missions are more solo-friendly
• There seems to be a lot more hunt missions on older blueside content

While redside and newer content have contacts and story arcs with more personality, I like that older blueside contacts are often just normal people (and some magicians, mystics, etc.) who work with heroes.  It handles how are hazardous waste disposal, civil rights, corporate espionage, doing journalism, etc. handled in a setting with heroes, villains, and superpowers

Edited April 11 by Worm_Kalpa

[Sunsette]

I do miss the friendly neighborhood Spiderman vibe of old blue contacts. I just wish getting it back didn't mean I had to play old blue missions. 

[Lunar Ronin]

15 minutes ago, Sunsette said:

I do miss the friendly neighborhood Spiderman vibe of old blue contacts. I just wish getting it back didn't mean I had to play old blue missions. 

 

This.  It's not that I play red side and gold side exclusively because I prefer being the bad guy (although sometimes it is fun, especially when I'm secretly role-playing Lex Luthor), it's that most blue side content (especially the issues 0 and 1 content), are dry and boring.  Doing them is like watching paint dry.  I tried doing an all blue-side solo run in 2019... and I just couldn't finish.  Plus I'm biased as I much prefer what were originally the red side ATs, which is what drew me to red side back in October 2005.

[Sunsette]

3 minutes ago, Lunar Ronin said:

 

This.  It's not that I play red side and gold side exclusively because I prefer being the bad guy (although sometimes it is fun, especially when I'm secretly role-playing Lex Luthor), it's that most blue side content (especially the issues 0 and 1 content), are dry and boring.  Doing them is like watching paint dry.  I tried doing an all blue-side solo run in 2019... and I just couldn't finish.  Plus I'm biased as I much prefer what were originally the red side ATs, which is what drew me to red side back in October 2005.

 

It took me until this year to level red or do power in Praetoria as I really dislike being evil, but I'll still do it over old blue at this point. Portal Jockey and TF Commander are bad enough. 

 

Pretty with you on the ATs, too. I think Blaster with the newer powersets and its current inherent stands out from the hero ATs but Brute, Corr, MM, Stalker, Dom are really just so much more fun in basic design than their counterparts. 

[Lunar Ronin]

3 minutes ago, Sunsette said:

 

It took me until this year to level red or do power in Praetoria as I really dislike being evil, but I'll still do it over old blue at this point. Portal Jockey and TF Commander are bad enough. 

 

Pretty with you on the ATs, too. I think Blaster with the newer powersets and its current inherent stands out from the hero ATs but Brute, Corr, MM, Stalker, Dom are really just so much more fun in basic design than their counterparts. 

 

 

Actually, it's funny.  I consider the Resistance Crusader the true "evil" storyline in Praetoria, even though the game considers it technically a "hero" alignment.  Power is mostly just selfishness and glory hounding.  Blowing up hospitals, setting up bombs everywhere, and feeding people to Ghouls however...  Those are just evil.

 

Yeah, out of the blue side ATs, Blaster and Controller are my favorite.  Controller solely because of Darkness Affinity, which is so good.  I'd love it on Corruptors and Masterminds, although I realize that it will never happen.

[Sunsette]

Crusader is pretty evil, yeah. I rate it less so than power because I'm more sympathetic to its evil born out of desperation (though some are adrenaline junkies too) and I think it occasionally lands a point. But where all the other alignments have things you can be sympathetic about, Power is like, HELL YEAH I'LL KICK A PUPPY TO GET ON TV which is kind of hilariously self-absorbed. You are right that it mostly does less depraved things though. 

[Marshal_General]

CoV has the advantage of most mission chains are generally contained to the zone the contact is in.

 

CoV also has some stellar stories like Oh Wretched Man.

 

The downside is that the zones can be a PITA without flight.

[StarkWhite]

1 hour ago, Sunsette said:

Crusader is pretty evil, yeah. I rate it less so than power because I'm more sympathetic to its evil born out of desperation (though some are adrenaline junkies too) and I think it occasionally lands a point. But where all the other alignments have things you can be sympathetic about, Power is like, HELL YEAH I'LL KICK A PUPPY TO GET ON TV which is kind of hilariously self-absorbed. You are right that it mostly does less depraved things though. 

Back in the day, I mostly equated

Warden = Hero
Responsibility = Vigilante
Power = Rogue
Crusader = Villain

It's not an exact match and wasn't intended to be, of course.

[Lunar Ronin]

2 minutes ago, StarkWhite said:

Back in the day, I mostly equated

Warden = Hero
Responsibility = Vigilante
Power = Rogue
Crusader = Villain

It's not an exact match and wasn't intended to be, of course.

 

I would flip Responsibility to Hero and Warden to Vigilante personally (Wardens break laws for the greater good like Vigilantes), but yep.

[Sunsette]

I would probably split it up three ways.

 

Consequentially

Hero	Warden Resistance
Vigilante	Responsibility Loyalist
Rogue	Power Loyalist
Villain	Crusader Resistance

We know in the end that the Wardens and Loyalists both ended up being more key in bringing down Tyrants' reign and saving the remnants of Praetoria than the Crusaders, while the Crusaders' methods mostly led to them getting absorbed by the Council. Though this depends, by definition, on post-hoc reasoning and Power Loyalists like Reese of all people being beneficial to the survivors was really not foreseeable.

 

Intentionality

Hero	Warden Resistance
Vigilante	Responsibility Loyalist
Rogue	Crusader Resistance
Villain	Power Loyalist

Most (definitely not all) crusaders express some concerns for innocents, but they simply say that it must be accepted. Power Loyalists at most have the option to express concern at the end of one arc. Your character is written as nakedly power-hungry otherwise; even though you work alongside characters like Warrant who seem to be more "put myself in the spotlight without harming others", you are largely written as unconcerned with such.

 

Methodology

Hero	Responsibility Loyalist
Vigilante	Warden Resistance
Rogue	Power Loyalist
Villain	Crusader Resistance

Power Loyalists break the law left and right as long as they're out of sight from anyone who can catch them. Wardens never do anything even slightly shady iirc other than rebelling at all.

 

Edited March 5 by Sunsette

[Hardboiled Hero]

Ughh..  @Sunsette buddy, I love you, but I think we need to talk about your addiction to charts and graphs...

[Freefall357]

As someone that dislikes comic books and superheroes, blueside is sterile and dull. I do chuckle at the literal city of heroes that run past as people are mugged on every sidewalk in AP! The huge statues and empty roads (ffs, skyway...all that for 2 cars?!) to the cheese ball hero in spandex standing around who's backstory is probably "I got bitten by radioactive lightning bolts and now I have lightningbolt powers and call myself LIGHTNING MAN!!"....barf.

 

Reside had character and SOME of the villains have really rational reasons for doing evil and were not evil because "MUA HAHA, EEEVVIIIILL!". Also, mayhem missions...M I RITE‽

 

I don't like "evil", So I usually went rogue (the morality missions have some of the best writing for sure!) Also, as a longtime shadowrunner, the gritty and morally grey has always appealed to me.

 

 

For anyone wondering "you hate comics...but play CoH?"

Yeah...so, I was onboarded from some EvE Online friends that wanted to troll in CoH PvP and with most people being Hero we started Reside.

I am also a tabletopper and OMG CHARACTER CREATION THE GAME! So it drew me in.

ALSO ALSO, I am a sucker for collections...not badges or achievements, but a temp power that fits my character concept?!? I only have to do 290 various things to get it?!? ...I'm in...

 

 

E: oh, and macros and binds and slash command stuff blew my mind...WHY IS THIS NOT IN EVERYTHING‽

Edited April 10 by Freefall357
Edit

[ZemX]

On 3/4/2024 at 5:15 PM, FFFF said:

I think CoV's unpopularity simply boils down to the fact that most players (me included) like playing the good guys in a superhero MMO.

 

This is not a fact.  In fact, it's more likely the opposite.

 

Right as I type this:

Excelsior Hero-to-Villain ratio: 6.1.

Everlasting Hero-to-Villain ratio: 3.0

 

In other words, on the unofficial roleplaying server, where presumably people care MORE about the in-character motivations and storylines of their alter-egos, players are twice as likely to choose villains as they are on Excelsior.

 

This might be a superhero MMO and it's cool if this matters to you personally, but you are seriously then projecting if you think any significant number of people on Excelsior would lose sleep over being asked to deliver some innocent civilians for live vivisection by Vahzilok surgeons.  You'd first have to believe they even READ the mission text.  The much more simple explanation for the population imbalance is that it's always been imbalanced and there continues to be no incentive for it to be otherwise.  There's always been more content and more people blueside.  Why would that change when it's so much easier to get a team blueside and so much more convenient to play on one when you're a hero or vigilante?

 

Just look at server populations themselves.   HC devs just had to offer XP incentives for people to move.  The content is exactly the same on all the servers.  Literally the only difference is how many people are on each server.  Without something like that kind of incentive, nobody is gonna move.  And even with it, only SOME people have taken them up on that offer it looks like.   Large populations are a huge draw all by themselves.  

[Lunar Ronin]

People play on Excelsior because that's where most people are.  It will obviously have a strong hero to villain ratio imbalance compared to other shards because if the people are playing there because they want to be around the most people, they'll play blue side because "everyone plays blue side."

 

True story: It takes just as long to fill PUG red side teams on Indomitable as it does Excelsior.  Average of about 20 minutes on both shards.

[ZemX]

5 minutes ago, Lunar Ronin said:

People play on Excelsior because that's where most people are.  It will obviously have a strong hero to villain ratio imbalance compared to other shards because if the people are playing there because they want to be around the most people, they'll play blue side because "everyone plays blue side."

 

Not much different than the point I was making.   I was responding to the notion that most people play blueside because they like playing good guys.    A few do, I am sure.  Not most.   Most people play on Excelsior and if most people play on Excelsior because they want to play where the most people are then "most people" play blueside because of the population, not the imaginary morality.

 

Even if there were only one server in all of Homecoming, it'd still be weird to look at the side that is literally smaller and has less content and conclude the population imbalance must be due primarily to... roleplaying?

[SarahTheM1]

There actually are minor differences to be found in early (I0-I5~) hero content if you know where to look. The Hollows comes to mind where the level ranges of enemies are not always your typical 0 to +1. It's been a long time but Atta is usually a good example where it's more like -2 to +1 if I remember right.

 

There's also some other minor differences across the various map tiles and tilesets. For example, I believe only comparatively newer office maps will have mobs spawn in the corner meeting room of doom instead of out in the hall. There's also a very specific dead end "objective room" that was almost completely removed from the majority of office maps and replaced by a larger room.

 

I also feel like villain office maps are more likely to have redundant, looping hallways  - if you do lots of paper missions you should know exactly what I mean - which I don't think is anywhere near as common heroside.

 

Of course, it's hard to speak with 100% certainty because some stuff inevitably got ported over or reused or remixed down the road. You also have stuff that doesn't meaningfully affect gameplay at all, like redside offices get an alternate low-ceiling version of the -[]- hallway connector...but it's used infrequently compared to the standard one.

 

Edit: Also speaking to mission design, early heroside outdoor maps are all remixed areas created from existing zone themes. Like the Hydra dimension map that's basically just a slice of Perez Park, the coast that's just a chunk of Talos outskirts, two different Boomtown-dervied crapholes, etc. Story wise I think they're implied to be areas outside/in-between the war walls but regardless are just random extra neighborhoods and districts. Meanwhile, over on redside just about every outdoor map is taken from - and explicitly is stated to be - a concrete location in the zone that you can visit even outside of the mission.

Edited April 11 by SarahTheM1

[Go0gleplex]

Without going into minutia and mechanics...just a general impression as I play; I don't find much difference between red side and blue side at all. Just different verbage used for very similar missions. It's rare that I even feel like I'm playing a villain vs a hero...probably because I'm focused on playing and the objective not so much the fluff text. I also don't really see any difference in difficulty but then again, I am a much more casual player than most folks here on the boards. 😉 The rob bank missions with a side of total destruction and robbing/kidnapping/arson are about the only time I see the villainy. 

 

Though for a place supposedly ran by a powerful villainous organization and strong holds of others, there sure is a disproportionate amount of do-gooders (Longbow) wandering the streets in the Rogue Islands vs baddies all over Paragon if going by 'occupied foot print'. You'd think they'd be open season targets 24/7 when behind enemy lines. 

[Ukase]

On 3/5/2024 at 9:44 AM, Sunsette said:

Blaster with the newer powersets and its current inherent stands out from the hero ATs

Off topic - but in what way do you think they stand out? 

[Sunsette]

57 minutes ago, Ukase said:

Off topic - but in what way do you think they stand out? 

 

Blaster has an exciting inherent that works for their playstyle: limited ability to ignore mez, which means they're one of the very few ATs that cares about mez resistance stats without mez protection (which is basically immunity in most cases), and it makes handling mez more interesting than "mezzed, break free." I actually consider what my response to a mez will be on a case by case basis. It also adds unique value to what are usually three of the weakest powers they have and can make continuing to keep at least two of them feel valuable. An interesting inherent used to be true of all the red-side ATs; it is no longer true for Brutes. It is not true for any of blue-side AT inherents other than blasters, which are all passives which may constrain build choice but don't affect active play very much.

 

Blaster also has two active powersets that do similar but different things, so two blasters can look and play very differently based on how their primary and secondary synergize and compete with each other. Until you get to the hardest content in the game, this isn't really true for melee armorset ATs; most defensive sets are passive and in most content play will look the same. Even the most active defensive sets like bio are primarily toggles, and as you get higher level, you usually settle in a single adaptation mode with bio -- at most, two. And frankly, bio is only *slightly* weirder than a blaster secondary, blaster secondaries are extremely weird and have a wide variety of things they do.

 

Finally, Blasters are strong at soloing (what a sentence compared to launch) without doing anything weird. They're not the strongest, but you don't need to do trippy things to make them able to survive on their own under normal play in a limited circumstance -- and then if you DO trippy things, you get rewarded for it. They can scale up to content if you can build and play to that content; they are not always married to a team despite benefitting from one. This is a definite weakness on controller and defender when looked at over the whole game, despite the number of interesting interactions their powerset combos offer. Strong solo troller or defender builds are almost always the result of dedicated study and knowledge by a player, be that experience or instruction. They're anomalous rather than the default experience. Dom struggles in this respect out of the redside ATs for the first half of the leveling curve, but it makes up for it with a vengeance and I'd say it's much more part of the standard Dom experience.

Edited April 11 by Sunsette

[Luger]

I pretty much exclusively play redside.  I did some blue during live, but never really liked it.

 

One thing for the morality folks, there is a lot of ambiguity on the redside.  You may start of doing a bad guy plan and somehow end up with a good guy type outcome.  Or maybe the outcome is some weird neutral.  There is lots of content like that.  OI course, there are still the classic bad guy things like rob bank, defeat hero, destroy stuff.... badges for mowing down civilians, etc.