End Game Content

[Ukase]

Experiences with end game content for me have been ...well, limited. A few days ago, an in-game friend wanted to know if I wanted to run "Excalibonk", whatever that is. Turns it, while I'm still not sure what it is, they were referring to Advanced mode LGTF. Not sure why it has that nickname, though. I suspect it has to do with a reward or something at the end of it. 

In any event, since I still lack the "doesn't look at explosions" badge, I figured I'd give it a shot. I'd done this 1 star before, just once, and it wasn't a lot of fun, but I'm assuming my team wasn't very good. But, hearing of some of the failures, maybe it was good enough. 

In my discussion with my in-game friend, he suggested I make some changes to my build to maximize psionic and toxic resistances and defenses. 

What's this now? If we enter an advanced mode tf, I should do a respec, specifically for this task? Granted, nobody put a gun to my head and said I had to run this, nor is it very clear to me that a respec will be necessary to fare adequately enough to complete the task force and get the badge - which is the only reason I'm doing it. 

It just seems to me that there's something missing in this equation. I completely understand that easy equates to boredom for many folks. To a degree, I count myself in that mix. If it's too easy, then where's the fun, right? 

But this notion of preparing for a tf. This is not something I've ever done before. For ITF and Aeon, their hard modes - all we really did was stagger barrier for the most part. And there was more communication, using discord. Not sure I'd want to run those without discord. I already had t-4 barrier, so it wasn't a big deal. 

At this point, I'm not qualified to speak at what's specifically right or wrong with these hard modes. And it could just be my in-game friend is a little insane with the suggestions. That's possible. But I'm going to run one again soon, and I hope I'm going to experience something that's challenging, but not overly so. I hope I'm not in the midst of it, thinking, "we need a XXXX" or "We should have brought an XXXXX" 

The best part of teaming with CoH has been the idea that there was never a need to bring any specific AT or powerset. Any collection of 8 heroes would be sufficient. Obviously, an "advanced" mode might require some more thought. And I've no idea where the line should be drawn. 

But it would seem to me that the amount of X defense a character carries should be something a teammate's buffs or debuffs, or aggro management can overcome. 

Is this an unrealistic expectation? I guess I'll find out. 

[Glacier Peak]

I'd offer that Barrier staggers were a simple solution to a defined challenge that was the result of trial and error. It's the outcome of players looking to find the most efficient way to achieve their desired goal. When content is designed to counter that behavior, players will inevitably find another tactic to achieve similar results and it will become the norm. 

 

Whether the content can be "cheesed" or if it presents a modicum of difficulty for an average player all depends on the design goals of the development team. The Homecoming team has implemented both design goals across different content in game, challenging and easy. Whether the player ultimately enjoys the content is their subjective opinion.

[TomatoPhalanges]

20 hours ago, Ukase said:

Experiences with end game content for me have been ...well, limited. A few days ago, an in-game friend wanted to know if I wanted to run "Excalibonk", whatever that is. Turns it, while I'm still not sure what it is, they were referring to Advanced mode LGTF. Not sure why it has that nickname, though. I suspect it has to do with a reward or something at the end of it. 

Excalibonk is a special power you can earn for completing a bonus fight in HM4 LGTF. To clarify, it's a bonus extra-hard fight layered on top of the already-hardest version of the Advanced LGTF. Your friend was going a little crazy with minmaxing and comp-building because they were trying to chase earning that power- honestly they probably should've properly filled you in on what they were doing!

 

Beyond that, a few thoughts:

 

The Barrier cycling strats in ITF and ASF aren't really explicitly the intended way to tackle Advanced content, I don't think, so they were never guaranteed to be a universal trick for Hard Mode as new content came out with enemies featuring different powers and threats.

 

That aside, LGTF is an interesting one on its own, because it normally necessitates semi-balanced compositions to deal with the Hamidon fight, even without being in Advanced Mode. With the additional difficulties on top of that, and then stats being amped up all the way to 4*, things get complicated. You can still typically have pretty varied compositions, but you'll need to strategize around your composition to get through to the finish line, for sure. The Excalibonk fight forces that strategizing further simply by virtue of its difficulty.

 

 

 

Also! Since I feel like this doesn't get talked about enough, and a lot of people don't know: I'm pretty sure it's been said by Cobalt Arachne in the past that each tier of Advanced Mode difficulty is tuned to account for a full team with incarnates of its equivalent tier. So 1* expects everyone to have T1s across the board, 2* expects T2s, etc. Not sure how relevant that is right now, but it comes to mind, since we're kinda talking about expectations of difficulty.

[Glacier Peak]

My expectation for end game content is to be the hardest challenge in the game. Something a player has worked to maximize their character to the fullest extent to take on and even then, it requires teamwork and coordination to be successful. Anything short of that is not end game content in my opinion. 

[Ukase]

1 hour ago, Glacier Peak said:

My expectation for end game content is to be the hardest challenge in the game. Something a player has worked to maximize their character to the fullest extent to take on and even then, it requires teamwork and coordination to be successful. Anything short of that is not end game content in my opinion. 

So, my expectation is similar. Except for the part where a player has worked to maximize their character to the fullest extent. I'm all for teamwork and coordination, particularly since Discord seems fairly popular, and is a useful tool for doing just that. 

This notion of "maximizing", I think it may mean different things to different people. 

[Glacier Peak]

1 hour ago, Ukase said:

So, my expectation is similar. Except for the part where a player has worked to maximize their character to the fullest extent. I'm all for teamwork and coordination, particularly since Discord seems fairly popular, and is a useful tool for doing just that. 

This notion of "maximizing", I think it may mean different things to different people. 

Totally agree on the interpretation of maximize. To me, due to the absence of a paid subscription, time is now the opportunity cost for players. Invest enough time in an efficient way and they will be rewarded equitably. So basically, time + risk = fun (reward). 

 

Hopefully that's not too convoluted. Of course, at the same time, some folks only have a few hours a week to put in to this game and shouldn't feel gated to higher end game content. How do you balance that? No idea! I'm not a dev lol

[twozerofoxtrot]

20 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

Of course, at the same time, some folks only have a few hours a week to put in to this game and shouldn't feel gated to higher end game content.

 

Big disagree. And I'm that person you're talking about.

 

End Game content in MMOs has alway been designed around people who prioritize the game they play over other aspects of their lives. Most of us were there at the genesis of MMOs. We know this fundamental truth.

 

It's easy to manage when you're single, in your 20s and working a part time job and some classes.  You can put in the grind for gear (or enhancements or accolades) and spend time learning fight strats (barely exists in CoH). It's a lot harder with a 60 hr a week job, spouse and kids.

But there's folks out there who still do it. Retirees with nothing but time. People who cracked the post-COVID code to work from home. New blood with all that time we used to have.

 

The really hard fights can probably all be counted on one hand. Everything else is fairly trivial.

 

The Endiest of Endgame content should be for those with the time to live inside the game.

 

Otherwise, what's the point of the challenge?

[Ukase]

7 hours ago, twozerofoxtrot said:

Otherwise, what's the point of the challenge?

That's kind of my point. I imagine there are some who do find time to live inside the game. But is that, and should that be the focus of our end-game content? I'd imagine those who find the time would say yes, and those who don't might say no. And of course, there are some who don't really care one way or the other. They're stopping at level 20 or 30 or somewhere along the path. 

[sbloyd]

I am reminded of a conversation in ... I think it was in Help Channel? a week or so ago.  There was a Shield/ tank who was frustrated that there was content he couldn't be Main-Tank for; I believe Hamidon was the specific example brought up.  Should the highest tier content be tuned so potentially anyone could do it?  To perpetuate the joke, what about a suboptimal toon like a Warshade?

[Glacier Peak]

46 minutes ago, sbloyd said:

I am reminded of a conversation in ... I think it was in Help Channel? a week or so ago.  There was a Shield/ tank who was frustrated that there was content he couldn't be Main-Tank for; I believe Hamidon was the specific example brought up.  Should the highest tier content be tuned so potentially anyone could do it?  To perpetuate the joke, what about a suboptimal toon like a Warshade?

Frankly, I think that's where having a team is so important. Teams fill in the weaknesses and increase the strengths of individuals.

[Thazager]

On 3/26/2024 at 2:18 PM, Ukase said:

They're stopping at level 20 or 30 or somewhere along the path. 

yep, I mostly stop playing that char and make new, but sometimes come back to that character, Once it dies.

To me, it means I did not make the character good enough to take all the way to end game content.

Even with lag and rubber banding, the character should survive. I had a few in the mid 30s that did that.

[Ukase]

On 3/27/2024 at 7:38 AM, sbloyd said:

I am reminded of a conversation in ... I think it was in Help Channel? a week or so ago.  There was a Shield/ tank who was frustrated that there was content he couldn't be Main-Tank for; I believe Hamidon was the specific example brought up.  Should the highest tier content be tuned so potentially anyone could do it?  To perpetuate the joke, what about a suboptimal toon like a Warshade?

I wish I'd seen this chatter on help. I would have told this Shield/* tank that he could indeed tank hami. But, it would require a specific build that maximized HP and regen over defense. A tank does not need a heal if there are two empaths or natties behind the tank. 

A couple of years ago, I don't know what possessed her to do it, but Trixie Chrome tanked hami with her scrapper. I think someone else - Freakenstein ended up tanking Hami on his blaster the next week. Any player can tank hami - with the right support around them. 

As someone who's tanked Hami, I would have been glad to tell this player that it's not a big deal at all. It's fairly mindless - as long as you remember to take your EoE. Well, I have to remember. I suspect there are some characters that don't even need the EoE. 

Team composition used to matter to a degree before IOs. Now, with the exception of Hard mode content, it doesn't. Well, it usually doesn't. 
Is that good or bad? Depends on whether you're the odd-man out, I guess. I heard one leader tell a player to log off his fire blaster for the advanced lady grey. 

To me, dps is dps. But, I guess if the npc you're trying to tackle has 90% resistance to fire, then my ice blaster sounds like a good solution! Still, I'm not sure I like this much attention to team composition. I don't think that's good for the players that play this game. At least, not all of us. 

[LegionAlpha]

Forgive my ignorance, but I never understood "End game Content". To me it sounds like, when you are done with the main quest, it is all side missions and nothing else. 

This has puzzled me for years when someone brings it up. 

 

Carry on.

[Shin Magmus]

     Omega K'Ong isn't even "endgame content"; that's I-Trials in general and derivative challenges like chasing special badges (The Really Hard Way, Old-School Rules, Master Of) etc. and optimizing your speed on TFs.  Omega K'Ong (for Excalibonk) is an optional superboss.  If you are unfamiliar with what that means, it is something that is ignored by 99% of players in almost every RPG: be they MMORPG or not.  You must show mastery of the game to even know where and how to fight a superboss, let alone beat it.  Fight's like Omega K'ong make up less than 1% of 1% of the content in CoH, so there's plenty of other stuff to do.  Feel free to revisit it at a later date if you want, after playing more and maybe even doing some other 4* runs but just not triggering that fight.

[Ukase]

On 6/9/2024 at 9:08 AM, Shin Magmus said:

Feel free to revisit it at a later date if you want

There's just a tiny problem - or huge problem, depending on variables. 

Tackling a 4* cannot be done just willy nilly. 

For players that leveled up through content, this will almost certainly mean doing a respec and pursuing max recharge and max HP. 
It means blasters can't just AoE as they please - they have to exercise target control because we wouldn't want the kin's Fulcrum Shift to be any less than it could be, right? 

It means flight isn't really an option - because those that do this kind of content use the Teleport Pool. Because they kind of have to. If a null field is between you and your team and you're using teams of barrier casting, you can't just SS through the null field, but you can tp through it. And problems may occur if someone isn't arriving in the mission in time for barrier. Or for the incan to the spot for the next fight. SS is just too slow in some cases. SS is relegated for short trips within the mission, usually. 

It boggles my mind to think teams are now completing the 4* in less than 30 minutes, with under 5 defeats. (the duration is more impressive than the minimal defeats to me) 
These players are getting exceptional at getting the most out of team synergy with some of the crappiest builds for general content. 

A blaster with no fight pool; less than 10% defense, and only 5% resistance. A ton of damage. Capped HP, maybe. Proc'd to the gills. Damn near perma hasten. Fold space. All the good stuff. But that same character by themselves, they'd likely be dead against a level 7 hellion if exemplared. (I just made that up - no idea if it's true, just saying the builds I see succeeding in 4* are pure trash outside of incarnate buffs)  It's ridiculous how they make it work. And I'm guilty of doing the respec to make my character pure trash, too. 

I'm looking forward to the next attempt at a 4*. But, no, the idea of revisiting...people are doing this now - in 3 months, those same people may have moved on to a different game or there may be a new patch with an advanced Atta mission where you have to clear the map before the tunnels collapse on top of you and that begins to get everyone's attention. 

Gotta strike while the iron is hot. 

[Shin Magmus]

9 hours ago, Ukase said:

I'm looking forward to the next attempt at a 4*. But, no, the idea of revisiting...people are doing this now - in 3 months, those same people may have moved on to a different game or there may be a new patch with an advanced Atta mission where you have to clear the map before the tunnels collapse on top of you and that begins to get everyone's attention. 

Gotta strike while the iron is hot. 

Seems defeatist to me but you do you, I find teams doing starred ITFs still and that's much older than starred LGTF.  It's just important to remember that I was talking about Omega K'Ong, who 1: is very definitively a superboss and 2: is an optional fight even on 4*.  You can just fight regular K'Ong instead and finish the run.

[macskull]

FWIW those “all procs all recharge and HP no defense no resistance awful recovery” 4-star builds are usually built with a specific team composition in mind, but they are also extremely capable in regular content. Sure, you’ve gotta crutch them along with things like amplifiers, recovery serum, and inspirations, but the cost of those things is a drop in the bucket compared to the inf you make from just making things die.