Concealment Pool suggestions

[Jacke]

4 hours ago, Rudra said:

Snipers already ignore stealth. And several high level factions have snipers.

 

https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Stealth_and_Perception

 

Snipers do not ignore stealth.  They have 149ft Base Perception.  With the usual -55ft stealth, they can see the Toon within 94ft.  With -85ft (Stealth and a stealth proc), they can see the Toon within 64ft.

 

Only Rularuu Sentries (the Eyes) and Rikti Drones ignore stealth, but they only have normal Perception ranges based upon their Rank.  They can be run past even with just a less-than-55ft stealth power if the Toon is quick about it.

[Luminara]

24 minutes ago, Sunsette said:

I did not say: give the travel power version -res. I am saying: give a travel power a placate similar to misdirection, with a lower cooldown as it cannot be enhanced, and turn misdirection from a placate to a targeted confuse, but with identical radius and cooldown currently. I did not even directly reference misdirection when discussing the travel power tray in the original suggestion for a reason, precisely because I am aware the -res component is the significant purpose of the misdirection power as it presently exists, outside of muling.

 

On 4/4/2024 at 12:47 PM, Sunsette said:

Distract would be a targeted AoE rather than a PBAoE and replaces the Mag 4 placate with a Mag 2 confusion without turning the enemies hostile to you. It also lowers their perception radius significantly, to cover enemies unaffected by the confusion.

 

This would make going deep into Concealment for a dedicated infiltration character provide a real benefit when dealing with enemy groups that have auto-sight enemies and be worth the long cooldown. At Mag 2, this would become a possibly interesting power pick for Dominators since Domination would double it, it would also stack with existing confuses for Controllers, and it would offer a potential stack for Rogue alignment characters, providing a variety of interesting synergies on more neglected elements.

 

Finally, at such a long cooldown, it should also activate the Hide state for stalkers if they are not already in that state.

 

Nothing here about retaining the -Res.

 

3 hours ago, Sunsette said:

Specifically did not say anything about losing the -Res. Infiltrate's tray pop-up would keep the Placate utility. There would be very flatly nothing lost.

 

In your follow-up, you imply, and yes, it is implication, not inference, that Misdirection's current effects would simply be moved to Infiltration.

 

And now you're implying that the -Res would remain in Misdirection, which is actually an even worse idea.  Many players mistakenly believe Confuses "steal" XP, but this actually would have that result because you'd be empowering critters to defeat one another more quickly, thus reducing the bonus XP you'd otherwise receive.

 

Neither way you try to make this work... works.  You're never going to convince the developers to put a -Res click in a travel power, and it couldn't stay in Misdirection if it were changed to a Confuse.  That means the -Res is gone.  We have -Res now, we don't after your theoretical changes, so... 1 - 1 = 0.  The math says it's a loss.

 

48 minutes ago, Sunsette said:

And doubling a minor level of defense when you're out of combat is not a meaningful amount of value.

 

To you.  I find it very worthwhile when Stealth's Defense goes from 3.32% to 9.96% (that's more than double, by the way) when I have an ambush coming at me, or I'm trying to get past something that I just don't want to deal with, or I blunder and land in a higher level spawn on a sub-50 character.  Your definition of "meaningful" in this context isn't definitive, it's just your opinion.

 

 

You claim to want the current meta approach of speeding through missions without stopping to fight anything to be changed, but you propose jacking up the stealth radius on Stealth and Infiltration, plus giving Infiltration a "Get out of jail for free" card.  You want Stealth's endurance cost reduced, but you want it to be more powerful.  You dislike that Infiltration has to have a slot added to it to hit its Run Speed cap, but you want to give it another effect that could take up all six slots if Threat Duration set IOs were used.  You want the T4 power to be "better", but the way you decide it will be "better" is if it's only capable of affecting minions... and apparently making those minions more effective at defeating one another so you can earn less XP over time.

 

The first half of your proposal feeds straight back into the existing meta, and the second half just turns a useful power into garbage.  That doesn't seem like you want stealth to be "less basic and binary", it seems like you're asking for power creep and offering up Misdirection as the sacrificial lamb to get it.

[Rudra]

2 minutes ago, Jacke said:

 

https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Stealth_and_Perception

 

Snipers do not ignore stealth.  They have 149ft Base Perception.  With the usual -55ft stealth, they can see the Toon within 94ft.  With -85ft (Stealth and a stealth proc), they can see the Toon within 64ft.

 

Only Rularuu Sentries (the Eyes) and Rikti Drones ignore stealth, but they only have normal Perception ranges based upon their Rank.  They can be run past even with just a less-than-55ft stealth power if the Toon is quick about it.

And yet they shoot my Stalkers from the other end of the room past the hall I just started entering....

[Jacke]

3 minutes ago, Rudra said:

And yet they shoot my Stalkers from the other end of the room past the hall I just started entering....

 

What was your Stalker's stealth?  Which mobs?  What was the range?  Do you have screenshots?

[Rudra]

13 minutes ago, Jacke said:

 

What was your Stalker's stealth?

150 feet from Hide.

 

13 minutes ago, Jacke said:

Which mobs?

Council snipers, Nemesis snipers, and Crey snipers most typically. (Most often Nemesis snipers.)

 

13 minutes ago, Jacke said:

What was the range?

I don't know. I haven't run my Stalkers in a while. So there was no convenient range listed on their target window, but minimum was 100 feet away on several occasions.

 

13 minutes ago, Jacke said:

Do you have screenshots?

I never expected to be having this discussion, so no.

 

(Edit: I currently only have 3 Stalkers left. The 32 and the 18 haven't dealt with snipers yet. The 50 hasn't been played in a while.)

Edited April 5 by Rudra

[Sunsette]

25 minutes ago, Luminara said:

And now you're implying that the -Res would remain in Misdirection, which is actually an even worse idea.  Many players mistakenly believe Confuses "steal" XP, but this actually would have that result because you'd be empowering critters to defeat one another more quickly, thus reducing the bonus XP you'd otherwise receive.

 

Neither way you try to make this work... works.  You're never going to convince the developers to put a -Res click in a travel power, and it couldn't stay in Misdirection if it were changed to a Confuse.  That means the -Res is gone.  We have -Res now, we don't after your theoretical changes, so... 1 - 1 = 0.  The math says it's a loss.

 

No, I am very directly saying that the -Res would stay in Distract. I chose the wording of 'enhance' specifically; I am sorry that my initial wording was not sufficiently clear for you, but my follow-ups have been clear that I have no interest in putting -Res in a travel power, and no interest in removing it from Misdirection. -Res is the current lynchpin of that power.

 

I do not personally find your argument against a Confuse power having -Res to be compelling. Stealth runs are not concerned with the idea of experience lost, and this would be a deep power in the concealment tree. I do not think it is an unreasonable argument, and it is something that anyone who reads this suggestion should consider, but I don't think it is a strong one.

 

25 minutes ago, Luminara said:

You dislike that Infiltration has to have a slot added to it to hit its Run Speed cap, but you want to give it another effect that could take up all six slots if Threat Duration set IOs were used. 

 

Point of clarification: pop-up travel powers are not slottable. As it currently stands, and I already agreed, this proposal would result in the loss of the ability to use placate sets.

 

I'm not going to repeat myself on other points further.

 

I do concede that the out-of-combat defense portion for Stealth is larger than I recalled, and I'm not married to changes to the Stealth power at this time.

Edited April 5 by Sunsette

[Jacke]

1 minute ago, Rudra said:

[ Stalker's stealth ]

150 feet from Hide.

[ Which mobs ? ]

Council snipers, Nemesis snipers, and Crey snipers most typically. (Most often Nemesis snipers.)

[ Range ? ]

I don't know. I haven't run my Stalkers in a while. So there was no convenient range listed on their target window, but minimum was 100 feet away on several occasions.

[ Screenshots ? ]

I never expected to be having this discussion, so no.

 

Herm....  I'm assuming this is before you attacked someone, so they struck you when you were still stealthed and Hidden.

 

This isn't the way it's supposed to work.  I've had Toons shot at by Snipers but they were running 85ft or less of stealth, so definitely possible for them.  But a Stalker should be able to stand next to a Sniper and not be seen.

 

Didn't go over something like Caltrops that busted your stealth?  Do some of the other Lts or Bosses have a +Perception power?

 

I have only have 1 Stalker, very low level too.  Not going to be able to test this very simply.

 

I'd say keep an eye to this and get the details on any future incidents.  Could be a serious bug.

 

Dug into CoD2 but the mobs aren't very well detailed there, so leaned nothing.

[Rudra]

3 minutes ago, Jacke said:

 

Herm....  I'm assuming this is before you attacked someone, so they struck you when you were still stealthed and Hidden.

 

This isn't the way it's supposed to work.  I've had Toons shot at by Snipers but they were running 85ft or less of stealth, so definitely possible for them.  But a Stalker should be able to stand next to a Sniper and not be seen.

 

Didn't go over something like Caltrops that busted your stealth?  Do some of the other Lts or Bosses have a +Perception power?

 

I have only have 1 Stalker, very low level too.  Not going to be able to test this very simply.

 

I'd say keep an eye to this and get the details on any future incidents.  Could be a serious bug.

 

Dug into CoD2 but the mobs aren't very well detailed there, so leaned nothing.

I'm not happy with my level 50 Stalker, so the bot is sidelined. I'll try to remember to keep an eye on this for when I resume playing the other Stalkers. If I can remember, I'll take screenshots and post it as a bug report. (And no, there were no caltrops or other effects that should have broken my stealth.)

 

Edit: Just for clarification, when I say the character is a bot, I mean the character is a robot character.

Edited April 5 by Rudra

[Luminara]

1 minute ago, Sunsette said:

I do not personally find your argument against a Confuse power having -Res to be compelling. Stealth runs are not concerned with the idea of experience lost.

 

That's one approach to playing that wouldn't be adversely affected.  One.  You're fixated on one play style and disregarding the effects it would have on every other, and it would affect all of the others.  Don't hold your breath.

[Sunsette]

The Tirailleurs in Nemesis (which are by far the most common sniper group found in mission maps) do frequently but not consistently see me farther than I think they should on my Stalker who runs both Hide and a Stealth IO, I can verify this -- it happens at roughly 60 feet, I believe. I haven't looked into why. 

 

Sometimes I can get right up to melee range with them no problem and assassinate, sometimes it triggers at 60. Sometimes a character with no StealthRadius increases beyond the Unique IOs is able to deal with them at normal range. I'm not sure what's going on there precisely.

Edited April 5 by Sunsette

[Jacke]

11 minutes ago, Sunsette said:

The Tirailleurs in Nemesis (which are by far the most common sniper group found in mission maps) do frequently but not consistently see me farther than I think they should on my Stalker who runs both Hide and a Stealth IO, I can verify this -- it happens at roughly 60 feet, I believe. I haven't looked into why. 

 

Sometimes I can get right up to melee range with them no problem and assassinate, sometimes it triggers at 60. Sometimes a character with no StealthRadius increases beyond the Unique IOs is able to deal with them at normal range. I'm not sure what's going on there precisely.

 

If someone else on the Team did in another Lt or Boss, there could be a +Perception from the mobs version of Vengeance (it fires on the just-defeated mob and gives buffs).

 

But otherwise...IT'S A NEMESIS PLOT!!!  Should have known....  😺

[Sunsette]

Reasonable theory, but it's not the result of vengeance. I make a point of letting vengeance wear off on groups when I'm trying to sneak.

 

I don't team often for content outside of taskforces and trials, and it'll just.... happen randomly that on some maps I need to be on guard against the Tirailleurs. (This variable *does* seem to be largely a map-based phenomenon, and I think it might be tied to a specific variant of the Tirailleurs, but it's difficult for me to read the entity data on CoD2). I've noticed this behavior in the months I've been back in game across old content. It was something of an interesting pain and is actually part of why I wished there was more depth to the stealth system of this game. In other MMO games, you can see the perception radius of enemies with heightened sight and you can use a variety of movement, CC, and perception tools to navigate these; high risk/reward. 

Edited April 6 by Sunsette

[Videra]

Seems like y'all are having a reasonable discussion and I don't have a horse in Concealment. But I haven't seen MadVillain around in Discord or on the forums for awhile, so I'll just unhelpfully chatter 'Concealment is fine, I can't believe people skip phase shift for a LOTG' in his honor.

[Uun]

50 minutes ago, Jacke said:

Only Rularuu Sentries (the Eyes) and Rikti Drones ignore stealth, but they only have normal Perception ranges based upon their Rank.  They can be run past even with just a less-than-55ft stealth power if the Toon is quick about it.

and Knives of Artemis

[Jacke]

4 hours ago, Uun said:

and Knives of Artemis

 

Oh, yeah, they also ignore stealth.  And use stealth themselves a lot.  And throw Caltrops, whose DoT will clobber stealth for others who're not alerted by the KoA.

[Saiyajinzoningen]

I rarely disagree with any post 

I try very hard to suggest alternative solutions to proposed problems

however

I personally think stealth is OP in its current form

the devs have buffed everything about it from live

it wasn't as stealthy and it reduced movement speed originally (I miss this cause it made super speed more manageable)

I am not asking for a nerf

I just don't believe it requires more improvements at this point

[Faraday Gauss]

Eh, I also find Concealment lackluster, mostly due to personally finding little value in out-of-combat defense. Threat reduction can be very useful, but it's situational and/or dependent on the archetype I'm playing. I suppose it differs according to people's play styles, and the content of the game is definitely a factor as well. Right now, if I'm discovered I just flee until I can stealth again or kill whichever mobs detected me; never been in a situation where I cannot flee and it's absolutely critical to remain undetected. I'm curious if the changes resulted in a noticeable increase in utilization by the playerbase?

 

I like the idea of certain archetypes getting additional benefits from pools when it makes sense thematically and mechanically. I'd also never turn down a little extra energy/negative energy resist, and I do find the endurance costs too high. Most of all, I wish I could figure out a use for Phase Shift. Such a cool concept, but just not useful for anything I'd want to do. If it was like Shadow Meld but with a shorter uptime, then I'd be sold on the whole pool.

[Rudra]

56 minutes ago, Faraday Gauss said:

Eh, I also find Concealment lackluster, mostly due to personally finding little value in out-of-combat defense. Threat reduction can be very useful, but it's situational and/or dependent on the archetype I'm playing. I suppose it differs according to people's play styles, and the content of the game is definitely a factor as well. Right now, if I'm discovered I just flee until I can stealth again or kill whichever mobs detected me; never been in a situation where I cannot flee and it's absolutely critical to remain undetected. I'm curious if the changes resulted in a noticeable increase in utilization by the playerbase?

 

I like the idea of certain archetypes getting additional benefits from pools when it makes sense thematically and mechanically. I'd also never turn down a little extra energy/negative energy resist, and I do find the endurance costs too high. Most of all, I wish I could figure out a use for Phase Shift. Such a cool concept, but just not useful for anything I'd want to do. If it was like Shadow Meld but with a shorter uptime, then I'd be sold on the whole pool.

Phase Shift used to be a toggle. It had a very high endurance cost, but as long as you could pay the endurance cost, it stayed on. So players slotted enhancements to make its prohibitive END cost manageable for indefinite use. This resulted in players using it to avoid defeat in PvE and PvP, run through maps in absolute safety, and tank everything by virtue of being absolutely immune to harm until the target turned its attention elsewhere. So the Live devs took a planetary nerfing device to it and we have the version of Phase Shift we have now. (Personally, I don't see the problem with how Phase Shift was being used prior to the nerf. It took a lot to get the END cost down to manageable levels and you can't harm anything while you're phase shifted. [Edit: Besides, the original version of Phase Shift was appropriately thematic for my first CoH character, a shadow demon. Now I don't know anyone that takes Phase Shift except for me on that character, but I don't use it because it has become so niche in application. {Edit again: I forgot I respec'ed the character out of Phase Shift. So I don't know anyone that uses it any more.} As a 30 second toggle, devoting the enhancement slots to bringing the END cost down doesn't seem like a worthwhile endeavor to me any more.])

 

Edited April 7 by Rudra
Edited to correct "your" to "you're". And again for clarity.