Problems, Complaints, Suggestions Re: Base Editor

[Dacy]

It's the interface we all have to use to build our bases. How is that working for you? I know there are lots of suggestions out there (we did a poll), but here's a place to also note frustrations and perhaps find options that will help.

 

Some may not love the editor...maybe all of us don't love it! But we do love what it can do. Here is also a great place to note any tricks you've discovered that let you do things you didn't think you could do.

 

I will ask that this topic be pinned if there is a lot of interest in keeping it easy to find. If not a lot of people need it, it'll slowly drift away...

 

[lemming]

I think my frustration is while trying to move something, I wind up causing the floor to change height, either dropping to the lowest, or causing a big block to pop up.   Maybe something that allows you to turn off room geometry changes could be toggled?  It would allow item placement, but lock the room dimensions?

[wjrasmussen]

My frustration is that when I make a change and leave the editor, I am not sure the change took effect.  Specifically, making the first change which is making a larger base.  It always seems like I am in the entrance.

[Dacy]

59 minutes ago, wjrasmussen said:

It always seems like I am in the entrance.

You will always return to the entrance room or near to it, if it is filled, when leaving the editor.  If you made a bigger room outside of the entry room, open your map and you should see it. If you have doubt that the editor did indeed place the larger plot, go back into editing mode to check, there's no real workaround there, but I've never had it fail that task. The system will put messages up that the whole sg can see as to what you are doing, though, so that is one way to check, especially as the build gets bigger and memory issues and lag sometimes mean a move didn't "take", if working in one large room, so that feedback is there to confirm, yes, you bought that next piece, which means it's placed somewhere. Now, that will only  record "buying" and "selling" items, not moving them.

 

 

[Monty Haull]

I would like to have the ability to group objects.  The grouping could be temporary, like a multi selection then, be able to move that selection as one unit.  Creating a duplicate of the selection would be great.

 

I would like to be able to select an object and have the ability to insert another by a hot key or something like that.  This would save time having to go find it.

 

Another thing I would like to have is:  when I click on an object, the information window would tell me how it is attached, floor, surface, ceiling.

 

More information about object would be helpful.  Like, it is size or if it designed for inside or outside base use.  Can we filter on that?  Maybe add information about where the "handles" are.   The point where your mouse holds the object when moving it.  

 

I don't hate the editor it can be difficult at times.  Being magically teleported back to the base when I am at the bottom or the top of the map is very annoying.  What causes this?

 

Edit:

Oh yeah, favorites.  Can we get favorites?  Or the last few items we inserted so we can quicky add them again 

Edited April 11 by Monty Haull
More requests

[Dacy]

1 minute ago, Monty Haull said:

I would like to have the ability to group objects.  The grouping could be temporary, like a multi selection then, be able to move that selection as one unit.  Creating a duplicate of the selection would be great.

YES!!!!!

 

4 minutes ago, Monty Haull said:

Being magically teleported back to the base when I am at the bottom or the top of the map is very annoying.  What causes this?

Usually you can stop doing this by typing /unbind leftdoubleclick. Most don't know that you can double click on the floor of where you want to go in a base and it will teleport you there when in edit mode; this gets rid of that, and usually, the flying across the base that goes with it.

 

 

[Dacy]

I'd like the grouping, copy/paste, or "apply style" (which basically means, do to this piece what I did to that piece, which I know already exists in some form in the editor because it's possible to do it with attachment), and the ability to search for an object and have it highlight or better yet, take you to the object. Also, better organization in the catalog. I am working with a couple of others to do a catalog that you can search by things like shape, size, color, ability to tint, collision, etc., so hopefully we can get that together, but that's a fair amount of work (will take time), and won't be in the actual editor, it will have to be a reference outside of the editor. Maybe we can get a more organized editor at some point.

 

I'd like the editor to show you not only what item you have selected, but what values are in anglesnap and grid. I'd like to be able to manipulate an item I've selected without having to find the grab point. I mean, I can click to rotate it, but I want to be able to lift and turn it more precisely without having to grab it. And yes, it would be nice to be able to "turn off" the ability to grab an item, which would for all intents, lock it into place until you enabled editing again. That would prevent accidental grabs, which I know is the bane of many players.

 

A couple of tips/tricks you may or may not be aware of: hit <esc> to release an item, rather than having to undo it (which won't work if you grabbed storage, anyway). Hold shift to grab the item behind another item. Hold control to target the base instead of items.

 

Item position is determined by the nexus location of the camera view, the mouse pointer, and the nearest surface with the item's attachment orientation. To prevent things from sailing across the base, work with your camera pointed down more than aimed into the distance. Hold control to keep items from changing height. When items move here then there when you are dragging them, likely there are different things that register as floors in the editor underneath that item, and it's finding different location triangulations because the height and placement of its attachment surface keeps changing. To prevent, have an editing surface tile at the level you are working, or close to it.

 

If you find yourself teleporting down to the floor or across the base (camera angle determines where you go), use the command /unbind leftdoubleclick. You will have to renew this each time you enter the editor if you want to use that again. If your leftdoubleclick is not disabled, you can double click in a room of the base, and the editor will teleport you to that spot. That only works on floor spaces, not on a filled in section on the top of it.

 

Filling in the entry room will stop you from being yoinked there when you first enter editing, but you will still end editing as close to the entry room as the editor can get you.

 

When trying to get items placed either very close to a base wall (some items get stubborn and don't want to place too near the walls) or even just outside of it, if you are in a base room that's smaller than the very largest 24x24 room and not on the very edge of the plot (with no space to move to), then you can try this technique: add a temporary room on the side where you wish to place the item. Put a doorway between the temporary room and the room you want to work in. Place the item, making sure the grab point is not farther away from the room than mid-line in the doorway between the two rooms. Now you can delete the temporary room and see if the item stays. It should stay as long as it's on the half of the doorway that belonged to the room you wanted to place the item in or near. If it didn't stay, hit undo (ctrl/z) and try placing the item again.

 

More tips as I think of them. 🙂

 

 

[Snarky]

the ability to sort telepoters zone list order, or possibly default to alphabetical order,

[ZacKing]

The Current Room items list very desperately needs to have search functionality added to it.   Finding one single item in a list of potentially thousands that can be in a room is an extremely tedious and painful process to the point of it being unusable.

 

Nice to haves would be smaller functional items or single items that can hold the total number of salvage items or teleport points.

 

Cimeroran NPCs and Store/Trainer NPCs for bases would be great too

 

 

[Dacy]

5 hours ago, ZacKing said:

Nice to haves would be smaller functional items or single items that can hold the total number of salvage items or teleport points.

I think it's more likely that the storage system would get redesigned, because I know they don't like it as it stands, but I also know it's a very tricky and difficult thing to change. So I'm not holding my breath in anticipation, because I have no idea if it ever will be redone. I just know that's the sentiment. But fortunately, it's very possible to hide all of the services, including storage, so at least we have that for now.

 

Probably the reason so many people use the interdimensional shard is because it's small and silent, so we actually already do have a small teleporter.  🙂 But I'm sure it would be nice to have one that's similar in Arcane.

 

[Techwright]

On 4/11/2024 at 5:33 PM, Monty Haull said:

I would like to have the ability to group objects.  The grouping could be temporary, like a multi selection then, be able to move that selection as one unit.  Creating a duplicate of the selection would be great.

 

Very much this.  I've built some nice looking portals, a composite of many parts and it's time consuming to build each one from scratch, and get the parts aligned just so.  I'd add that I'd like to have a line in the base builder listings exclusively for grouped items.  It's definitely a step forward to highlight a group and say copy/paste, but even better would be the ability to store it for future reference.  If I could push that idea to the limit, I don't know if the parts are stored server side or client side, but if the latter, having access to them for another character/base would be great.  Such might also allow for the sharing of a grouped item if someone really takes a shine to it.

 

I don't know if it is possible, but I'd like to suggest looking into broadening the costuming options for NPCs placed in the bases.  I was thinking on this while touring the sci-fi bases, seeing NPC character appropriately placed but wearing civilian clothing while sitting in navigation chairs, examining engine computers, etc.  Not the players' fault, just the limitations of the current game, but NPCs with a sci-fi or at least military uniform would have been a better fit.  Taking this to an extreme, could function of (perhaps not all functions) the costume maker for player characters be ported over to allow NPC costumes?  Probably not a unique costume per NPC, but say a limited number of uniform costumes in a base: male, female, huge, or perhaps a few extras for those wanting the Trek blue/red/gold type look, as example.  Even if never possible, having additional NPC costume options would be nice: military, wilderness/rainforest, polar, pirate, medieval, Roman, etc.

 

I'd additionally like to suggest that new variations of the active workshop items be created for the specific purpose of incorporating them into vending areas of the player's creation.  So not necessarily a new structure, but a new clickable spot that can be merged into a player-made construct.  With such, bars, vending machines, ice cream shops, etc, all become functional commercial businesses, especially for role playing.  Taken to the extreme: allow for a player-named menu.  By example, an Empowerment Station looses the Supercollider skin, becomes a flat pattern-less panel added to a vending machine, quick market checkout, base cafeteria or bar register, etc. and from it, an "increased recovery" buff is player-named as "Scarlet Steer Energy Drink" and "increased recovery" becomes the description to the new title.   This could free other things for greater creativity as well, such as enhancement tables and salvage racks.  I know there are top-tier base creators who've found tricks for hiding the current constructs (Dacy, I think I observed you creating something hiding constructs like this in your sci-fi base's dining hall) but this would simplify matters.

[Dacy]

1 hour ago, Techwright said:

, but even better would be the ability to store it for future reference.  If I could push that idea to the limit, I don't know if the parts are stored server side or client side, but if the latter, having access to them for another character/base would be great.  Such might also allow for the sharing of a grouped item if someone really takes a shine to it.

What an incredible idea! Wow, the mind boggles. And I know people would be storing and sharing things like crazy...which, I don't know how much memory and such that would take up vs. what demands are like already, but each builder would undoubtedly store things they made; prolific builders could create a LOT to store, and if they put limits on that, then I'd foresee a lot of builder altitis.

 

Sadly, I don't think that's possible. Memory resources alone could make that untenable, but I do know that while the process of saving items can be fast and simple (demorecord can save a whole base), the process of converting that back into an actual item (in this case a base), is manpower intensive and apparently not at all simple, at this point in time. I mean, if they could give us that, then we could make basic bases that people could start with, instead of having frustrated players who either don't understand how to edit, or  don't have the time to build, but would still like to have a base.

 

1 hour ago, Techwright said:

I don't know if it is possible, but I'd like to suggest looking into broadening the costuming options for NPCs placed in the bases.

I know there's at least one Dev who would like to see this happen, along with being able to choose a pose instead of having a selection of NPCs, however I have no idea as to whether or not it's ever going to be possible, or if they are even working on it.

 

1 hour ago, Techwright said:

I'd additionally like to suggest that new variations of the active workshop items be created for the specific purpose of incorporating them into vending areas of the player's creation. 

Yeah, I replied to someone else wishing the storage could get a revamp in appearance and size, but I do not think they will touch the storage in this way. They'd like to be able to take the storage out of the base code; currently it's entwined, and that makes it problematic and touchy, which is why undo doesn't work on storage items. Bad things happen when the storage gets messed with.  So I have no idea what, if any, changes can or will be made to storage. But the problems have been noted, and I know they'll change it if they can. 🙂

 

[Techwright]

2 hours ago, Dacy said:

I know there's at least one Dev who would like to see this happen, along with being able to choose a pose instead of having a selection of NPCs, however I have no idea as to whether or not it's ever going to be possible, or if they are even working on it.

 

Yeah, I replied to someone else wishing the storage could get a revamp in appearance and size, but I do not think they will touch the storage in this way. They'd like to be able to take the storage out of the base code; currently it's entwined, and that makes it problematic and touchy, which is why undo doesn't work on storage items. Bad things happen when the storage gets messed with.  So I have no idea what, if any, changes can or will be made to storage. But the problems have been noted, and I know they'll change it if they can. 🙂

 

 

Ah, poses. That's something I forgot to mention.  One of the sci-fi bases had NPCs standing next to each other, ostensibly at some controls, and the two had synced up, matching movements.  Humorous and creepy.

 

In this context, does "storage" apply to other things as well, like the empowerment stations with their temporary boosts?  That is, are things beyond parts storage also entwined in the base code?

[Dacy]

No, as in, the empowerment buffs are not retrieved items, they are created in the base, so they are not kept in storage. It's just the things you put in and then later take out that are part of the base code.

 

[ZacKing]

On 4/12/2024 at 3:16 PM, Dacy said:

I think it's more likely that the storage system would get redesigned, because I know they don't like it as it stands, but I also know it's a very tricky and difficult thing to change. So I'm not holding my breath in anticipation, because I have no idea if it ever will be redone.

 

I can't imagine it's that difficult to copy/paste the item code for a storage rack and have it reference a smaller, already existing item like a crate or pallet or box.  I say that without no knowledge of the internal coding of the game, just saying it doesn't seem that impossible to do. 

[Techwright]

On 4/22/2024 at 1:34 AM, Dacy said:

No, as in, the empowerment buffs are not retrieved items, they are created in the base, so they are not kept in storage. It's just the things you put in and then later take out that are part of the base code.

 

 

Well then, if they ever do decide to take the plunge and rebuild storage, maybe we could also get enhancement blueprint storage as well?  I forget the reasons why the OG team opted to leave this out, but in Homecoming with so many bases exclusive to the individual player, or perhaps two or three, having even a small amount of blueprint storage would be quite useful.

 

On 4/21/2024 at 5:08 PM, Dacy said:

What an incredible idea! Wow, the mind boggles. And I know people would be storing and sharing things like crazy...which, I don't know how much memory and such that would take up vs. what demands are like already, but each builder would undoubtedly store things they made; prolific builders could create a LOT to store, and if they put limits on that, then I'd foresee a lot of builder altitis.

 

While I suggest it in a CoH context, I really can't claim the idea as original.  Over on Planet Coaster, as but one example, they have a Workshop exchange where people can create anything from scenery, to buildings, to rides, to full theme parks and share them with others.  (See picture) While their design allows for upload to a cloud storage first, I've downloaded a host of such to my computer and the limit is based on my computer's storage capacity.  I realize having an upload-to-the-cloud feature would significantly increase the storage demands for Homecoming, but my thoughts ran towards a simpler process of sharing from player to player.   There would need to be other considerations of course, such as how the exchange was arranged and how the files could be scanned for safety first, but that's why devs get paid the big bucks (humor intended). 

[Kheprera]

On 4/11/2024 at 4:38 PM, Dacy said:

YES!!!!!

 

Usually you can stop doing this by typing /unbind leftdoubleclick. Most don't know that you can double click on the floor of where you want to go in a base and it will teleport you there when in edit mode; this gets rid of that, and usually, the flying across the base that goes with it.

 

 

 

I need to remember to unbind the doubleleftclick, but I also use it to move quickly from room to room.

[Dacy]

5 hours ago, Kheprera said:

I need to remember to unbind the doubleleftclick, but I also use it to move quickly from room to room.

can always bind a couple of keys

[Ukase]

I think, aside from my lack of experience in base building - beyond basic functionality - the biggest complaint I have is the arcane teleport beacons. Now, it could be my graphic settings, but they're awful. 
I look at the tech beacons, and I pretty much can recognize the zone from the picture. With the arcane beacons, I can't even make out a picture. 

Lately, I have dabbled a bit into things beyond functionality and was able to place an object on top of another object. It felt like I dinged 50! Well...no, not really. But it was tedious and I felt much relief. 

I don't know who invented the base design system, but despite the amazing things I've seen done with it, I don't think it's a very good system. If it were not for [ctrl-z], I would have likely thrown something at my screen. 

[Dacy]

Heh, the person who wrote the code did not last long, and in fact, it was so bad, the original team didn't TOUCH the editor again.

 

Once you learn the controls, it gets easier, at least, it seems that way for most. I think if you enjoy creating things, the editor is a bit of a learning curve, but it won't slow you down for long. If you're not really into making things and just want a base, dang it, it's cumbersome and extra annoying. We creative types will take the trade that's made of automation for flexibility, every time.  In other words, the editor won't do a lot for you, but you can do a lot with it (once you learn the system).  It's really surprising what we can do with it, especially now, but base building (sadly) was never a primary goal in this game, and so it was never a focal point in development. So it's never going to be like Sims or other games that prioritize building, but honestly, if you learn the commands, it WILL get easier as you work with it.

 

I agree, the arcane beacons are very unclear, but I almost always bury mine in the floor and use words or symbols to show where a teleporter goes, so, doing things that way, it makes no difference what the beacons look like. If you want to display the beacons, you can always use the tiny alphabet letters and write the destination on the beacon.

 And I think without ctrl/z, a LOT of us would be throwing things. 🙂

 

Edited May 15 by Dacy

[Techwright]

After that discussion about base coding, I hesitated about posting this, as I've not much hope for a base construction tool redesign, and realize this following wish is "pie in the sky" but...

 

I've been experimenting with the free game Palia.  I have to say, I'm very impressed with their base system.  Not only is your home/base actually important to running your complete game, the method for setting up the base is very impressive as well.  As you can see in this shot, rather than the blue or red boxes around objects that our system uses, they use a grid system looking much like a tartan pattern.  There are colored lines and zones to help you know exactly how the piece you're working with aligns with everything else in the room.  Want to know if that shelf your hanging aligns with the shelf at the far edge of the wall?  Just trace the line, and you're assured.  No spitball guessing.  I found this accuracy gauge particularly helpful with hanging lighting, especially from rafters.  Any flat surface, vertical or horizontal has these "tartan" grids (minus certain items that have a specific game function, like the two pastry tables in the center left of the shot) and can have items placed on it, though the piece itself defines whether it is a vertical or horizontal piece.  I couldn't place this chair on the wall, for example.  This grid extends outside, allowing you to place flowers, crops, and structures along the ground. Rotation of the pieces is very easy.

 

Stacked pieces can be moved as a single unit.  Within the building it means that when I filled a bookshelf with pottery (top left in the picture), I was able pick up the bookshelf, move it across the room and everything moved with it.  I can then move the individual pieces once the shelf is placed again. 

 

Likewise outside, there's a similar but separate function that will give you a top-down look at your property, allowing you to click on any building or item  and move it to another part of your property.  All items inside travel with it.

 

If Palia's system has any drawback, it's that most items do not work in a clipping kind of way. So creation of something new by merging two or more elements is not really possible with the exception of yard flowers.

 

Any of these features I'd consider a wish-list suggestion for any future overhaul of the base system.  For an in-motion discussion of how this all works, check out this video.

 

[Krimson]

I think there are tricks to overlap items. I like how an item can keep track of other items placed on it, so a table covered in plates can be moved with the plates still in position.

[Dacy]

Certainly, being able to group items so that they can be moved as one piece would be awesome, I agree!

 

However, what I see there is a well equipped base design interface, very easy to use, but very limited in what it can do creatively. This, as I've said before, is the trade. Now, if we could get grouping and more basic household items, and maybe some pre made rooms for those that don't want to create, they just want a base, I'd be happy with that, and I'm sure the majority would be, too. But if you take away our ability to meld items and create new things, then we are dependent on what's in the editor to fulfill our visions, and, having recently TRIED to categorize the extreme creativity that has been unleashed in the base building community through the new directory, I will tell you, we'd lose SO much. The list of categories (and no way we got them all) is daunting. The creativity here is amazing.

 

Take a few moments sometime to read the bios of characters as they go by. Peruse the descriptions in the directory. There are some wildly inventive story artists out there! Yes, we have apartments, mansions, and houses. We also have quite a few that "defy description". Everything from prehistoric to futuristic, realistic to tech to magical to interdimensional. We even have interactive bases with slides, or swimming, or rides and games. I have not played the game you have, but I do know that the more a system does FOR you, the more limited  you are in what you can do with the system. We have modern houses, castles, cyberpunk, arcane, aquatic...what's the variety like in just the houses you can create? The furniture, there? Or does everything have that "cartoonish" look I see in your picture?

 

There is nothing against a system like that, lots of people will enjoy it, and that's awesome. However, I am just saying, there is a lot we would give up if we went with something like that, and I, for one, would hate that.

[Dacy]

27 minutes ago, Techwright said:

After that discussion about base coding, I hesitated about posting this, as I've not much hope for a base construction tool redesign, and realize this following wish is "pie in the sky" but...

You know, tho, I once thought that they couldn't do anything about shift. And then they surprised us all and essentially got RID OF IT. The code has been unlocked. It's still touchy, mind, and it's still a 20 year old game on the original engine afaik, but...I'm super impressed with what they've been able to get out of it. 🙂 We'll see how far it goes!

[Ukase]

So..it's just a thought - no idea if it's worth the time to code it, but we have two options - arcane and tech. 

I think I made a mistake going with arcane, because there's this Merit Vendor that looks like an ATM, and a crafting bench...well...they just don't look arcane at all. At least not to me. 

I suppose there would be a way to hide all but the screens, but since the thread does ask for complaints, this would be a minor one.