Scrapper or Brute?

[Gobbledigook]

You could say a Brute brings nothing to a team that a Scrapper/stalker or any dps or Tank can bring. But isn't that the same for most AT's?. Do you need a Sentinel with a blaster around? or a Stalker with a Scrapper around? Do we even need the Epic AT's?

 

You can proc a Brute out just the same as you can proc any Scrapper/Stalker.  Higher health and resist cap help, especially when buffed in a team.

If i proc out a Fire/invuln Brute for example with 3k health and potential 90%resists it is worse than a procced out Scrapper with 2400 health and 75% resist cap?.

 

Maybe Brutes could do with something unique to help them stand out more, but they are certainly not in a terrible place. Maybe reduce the Brutes AoE targets to 6 max and increase their damage some lol.

 

Edited April 27 by Gobbledigook

[Erratic1]

7 minutes ago, Sancerre said:

brutes just offer an optional middle ground between scrappers and tankers.  generally speaking, for teamplay brutes are not 'more useful' than having another scrapper or another tanker on the squad.

 

7 minutes ago, Sancerre said:

that said, brutes are perfectly fine where they are at.  if brutes did the same damage as scrappers but were more tanky, we would be having the same conversation about scrappers being pointless. 

 

You have literally just stated that it is fine for Brutes to have no reason to be on a team (whatever they provide being done better by other ATs) but that it would be wrong for other ATs to be in the same situation.

 

Seems...oh, I don't know...contradictory.

[Infinitum]

38 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

And you should stop putting words in my mouth. To wit...

 

4 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

What precisely is a Brute bringing to a team? Substandard damage and even more substandard tanking ability. 

Your words. Not true. 

 

39 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

I did not say Brutes were being called out did I?

 

You are implying it. Because if that is not the case. Why does any of this matter. Is there a function in game keeping score?   The answer to that is no.  You are implying and raising the case Brutes don't contribute to a team - but that isn't true. And I don't know of a soul that gives 2 rips about whether a brute does slightly less damage than a scrapper or is slightly less survivable than a tanker. 

 

41 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

WHAT ARE BRUTES BRINGING TO A TEAM THAT IS NOT BETTER PROVIDED BY ANOTHER AT?

 

Again whose keeping score?  That's a bleeding edge splitting hairs argument that nobody I know cares about. I play plenty of brutes and I play with plenty of Brutes. We don't critique their capabilities against any other AT. Just  have fun. 

43 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

WHAT ARE BRUTES BRINGING TO A TEAM THAT IS NOT BETTER PROVIDED BY ANOTHER AT?

 

Don't  dance around things that were not suggested or shift focus. Answer the question.

 

They are bringing themselves.  That's enough for me - and nobody is keeping score here.  They don't have to be anything other than a ravaging Brute. 

 

45 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

And here is more of you translating things I never said. Indeed, last time this came up I left the floor open for quite a bit of things other than damage. So stop trying to say otherwise.

 

Tankers will get a nerf before brutes get a buff because it's an easier fix.  If brutes get a buff it's not going to change a lot from where they currently are.   If they get buffed damage wise they will tread on Scrappers or blasters which will be the problem back to square 1 because those to have no chance to approach brute levels.  Brutes can currently approach tanker levels and still out damage them in most cases.   Adjust their survival higher then what's the point of playing a tanker? 

 

So ultimately what you keep complaining about can't ever be the case again.   You aren't stating it directly but anyone that can read between the lines can discern what you want. 

 

51 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

And yet if Brutes are proc'd to the gills...oh wait, doesn't work for them does it?

 

Actually they can, but it just works better on tankers.  That's not anything making headlines 

[Sancerre]

1 minute ago, Erratic1 said:

 

 

You have literally just stated that it is fine for Brutes to have no reason to be on a team (whatever they provide being done better by other ATs) but that it would be wrong for other ATs to be in the same situation.

 

Seems...oh, I don't know...contradictory.

 

My point is actually that whoever is META will make the non-META AT(s) irrelevant however you balance it.  The definition of META dictates this in the first place.  There is never going to be a point in the game where all 4 (dont forget about stalkers) of the main melee ATs are all equally useful on every team.  In order for there to be a winner, there has to be a loser.  Frankly speaking, scrappers already dont really have a place in parties as it stands when blasters and corruptors exist.  The META role for scrapper right now is to be the high damage tanker that survives because the game doesnt necessitate tanker-level defenses for most party content.

 

But if you wanted my opinion on how to 'better' balance the game to ATTEMPT having all of these extremely similar melee ATs somehow having carved out useful party roles in a game where party composition barely matters in the first place:

• scrapper taunt auras would be 100% removed from every armor set.
  • tankers and brutes should be the only classes with the passive taunt auras
• bump brute's base damage scale
  • reduce brute's max damage buff (compensation)
  • goal of generally improving the baseline performance without effecting their peak damage
• brutes would have *real* ATOs that actually do something meaningful
• brutes would have corruptor-level values for power pool options (slight bump for things like tough/weave, combat jumping, and leadership buffs)
• damage and buff procs (especially FF recharge) would see a BIG overhaul

[Erratic1]

1 minute ago, Infinitum said:

Your words. Not true. 

 

Offered with not a shred of backing. Just going accept you conceding the point.

 

2 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

You are implying it. Because if that is not the case. Why does any of this matter. Is there a function in game keeping score?   The answer to that is no.  You are implying and raising the case Brutes don't contribute to a team - but that isn't true. And I don't know of a soul that gives 2 rips about whether a brute does slightly less damage than a scrapper or is slightly less survivable than a tanker. 

 

No, I stated exactly what I was saying. And clarified after your first attempt to twist what I wrote.

 

3 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Again whose keeping score? 

 

Oh, now its, "Whose keeping score is it?" AFTER Brutes have been nerfed. AFTER their position on a team has been undermined? Fine. Let's make an AT which does...oh roughly half Defender damage, is no sturdier than a Blaster...and I am sure, without keeping score, that will a design you can get behind because, "Who is keeping score?"

 

As I have noted before, if nobody had been keeping scores there would have been no Brute nerf to begin with.  So somebody has been keeping score.

 

7 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Tankers will get a nerf before brutes get a buff because it's an easier fix. 

 

I have been assured up and down, including by you, that Tankers are perfectly fine. Why should they need a nerf? And do note: I am on record repeatedly opposed to the need for a Tanker nerf.

8 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

 If they get buffed damage wise they will tread on Scrappers or blasters which will be the problem back to square 1 because those to have no chance to approach brute levels.  Brutes can currently approach tanker levels and still out damage them in most cases. 

 

That looks suspiciously like "keeping score" to me. I trust I must be misreading you there, given your earlier questioning of doing so.

9 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Actually they can, but it just works better on tankers.  That's not anything making headlines 

 

Doubtlessly there is little desire to advertise that fact in certain quarters.

 

Last word is yours. I'm off to do something considerably less frustrating.

[hakurr]

reading the posts i need to get popcorn for all the excitement here lol .

 

but i would like to say the way the game has developed all Arch Types can be played and do just about any thing you want if you have the build knowledge and influence. i love this game and have since the day it first came out there are times i miss the early on game play when we use to look for the different arch types to make up our team because you could not bump up missions and then when you could you had to have a tank a healer some control ranged and then your melee dps to smoothly get threw a mission. but those day are gone now we go in to task forces with healers that can solo it if they want. that being said i posed the Question of Scrapper or Brute to find out what the OPINION of the mass was on witch would be better for the power sets i chose not witch arch type is better to play over all or why 1 arch type is worthless when it doesn't meet someone's expectations on game play.

[Infinitum]

18 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

Offered with not a shred of backing. Just going accept you conceding the point.

 

 

No, I stated exactly what I was saying. And clarified after your first attempt to twist what I wrote.

 

 

Oh, now its, "Whose keeping score is it?" AFTER Brutes have been nerfed. AFTER their position on a team has been undermined? Fine. Let's make an AT which does...oh roughly half Defender damage, is no sturdier than a Blaster...and I am sure, without keeping score, that will a design you can get behind because, "Who is keeping score?"

 

As I have noted before, if nobody had been keeping scores there would have been no Brute nerf to begin with.  So somebody has been keeping score.

 

 

I have been assured up and down, including by you, that Tankers are perfectly fine. Why should they need a nerf? And do note: I am on record repeatedly opposed to the need for a Tanker nerf.

 

That looks suspiciously like "keeping score" to me. I trust I must be misreading you there, given your earlier questioning of doing so.

 

Doubtlessly there is little desire to advertise that fact in certain quarters.

 

Last word is yours. I'm off to do something considerably less frustrating.

 

You probably need a rest. Those goal posts are getting heavy right about now I'm guessing. 

[Sancerre]

13 hours ago, hakurr said:

reading the posts i need to get popcorn for all the excitement here lol .

 

but i would like to say the way the game has developed all Arch Types can be played and do just about any thing you want if you have the build knowledge and influence. i love this game and have since the day it first came out there are times i miss the early on game play when we use to look for the different arch types to make up our team because you could not bump up missions and then when you could you had to have a tank a healer some control ranged and then your melee dps to smoothly get threw a mission. but those day are gone now we go in to task forces with healers that can solo it if they want. that being said i posed the Question of Scrapper or Brute to find out what the OPINION of the mass was on witch would be better for the power sets i chose not witch arch type is better to play over all or why 1 arch type is worthless when it doesn't meet someone's expectations on game play.

 

there is a lot of nuance in the topic and that is why the conversation spiraled.  the simplest answer to your original question is that both scrapper and brute are fine, so play what you want... and if you cant decide based on all this conversation, then flip a coin and you will still have fun.  you really would never notice any substantial difference until you dump influence into a fully optimized build at or near level cap... and even at that point, people will tell you about all the workarounds you can do like stuffing your mailbox full of inspirations and buying temporary buffs to make bad builds functional!

 

**you cant ask 'which one is better' and then not expect people to talk about the META.

[MizuUeumatsu]

Brutes are like melee sentinels. Very survivable, almost the damage of scrappers.

[Lunar Ronin]

2 minutes ago, MizuUeumatsu said:

Brutes are like melee sentinels.

 

That has to be one of the most depressing things I've ever read on these forums.

[Sanguinesun]

On 4/28/2024 at 9:52 AM, hakurr said:

reading the posts i need to get popcorn for all the excitement here lol .

 

but i would like to say the way the game has developed all Arch Types can be played and do just about any thing you want if you have the build knowledge and influence. i love this game and have since the day it first came out there are times i miss the early on game play when we use to look for the different arch types to make up our team because you could not bump up missions and then when you could you had to have a tank a healer some control ranged and then your melee dps to smoothly get threw a mission. but those day are gone now we go in to task forces with healers that can solo it if they want. that being said i posed the Question of Scrapper or Brute to find out what the OPINION of the mass was on witch would be better for the power sets i chose not witch arch type is better to play over all or why 1 arch type is worthless when it doesn't meet someone's expectations on game play.

 

 

Your stated original goal was for soloing a Savage/Radiation Armor toon as you level up in content and this being evidently through story arcs etc.

 

With that in mind(as so many others have strayed to other things in these regard:

 

1. Brutes, can reach (depending on how they're built) 90% damage resistance caps. Scrappers are limited to capping to 75%.  However while leveling, attaining either of those caps on damage categories isn't wholly possible for them all(some yes but not all). 

 

First off Rad's main hole is cold.  Luckily that's a less encountered type through story arc progression 1-50 as a whole.  Its there but not as prominently as other types. 

 

Secondly, even if you were employing the use of expensive sets of invention origin enhancers, you're still going to have challenges fleshing those resistances fully out until 50.  Again yes some damage types like slashing/lethal will be much more easily attained earlier.   But its also important to remember that also challenges in missions increase as you go higher too.

 

Third, your choices of mission difficulties will factor.  If you're making difficulty -1 for a team of 1, as an example, most things are going to be easy(albeit your exp is going to be dramatically less per mission.  Conversely if you make it +4/8, you're going to be concrete licking likely alot more.

 

2.  Brute damage is effective but increases in effectivity the more you're dealing damage/taking damage.  As a general rule, instead of thinking on max fury bar giving you max damage, think in terms of half a bar for a reasonable average.   Scrappers by contrast get more of their damage through their critical chance and damage. 

 

However, scrappers really do not flesh out their stronger damage until they're employing their expensive Scrapper Archetype enhancemeents for chances to increase both the critical hit chance and damage output from them.   

 

Thus if you're leveling 1-50 as a scrapper, just using the standard invention origin enhancers and not that of special AT's enhancements or other set ones,  In terms of overall damage out put 1-50, the evidence is more compelling that a brute is going to do more damage than a scrapper.

 

Another factor is your choice of savage which gets a recharge and endurance discount in its melee set.  This means you're firing off more attacks which means your fury bar will fill more readily as well.  Scrapper too of course will hit more times giving more chances for their criticals but when comparing the two, the faster fury is going to outpace the critical in various situations that I've outlined before per your goals.

 

 

However, we're not accounting for other variables with regards to that damage: your play style.  If you enter missions, use stealth, and just rush to the boss at the end, the scrapper may be more effective/quicker potentially.  However, if you encounter a boss (and minions) that require more time to down, the brute will likely be a more effective choice due to the fury build and the survivability pointed out in point 1.

 

Or if you need to do defeat all missions, a brute is going to more or less be the overall better damage effectivity choice.

 

So when you know that story arcs have:

 

-Defeat Alls

-Rescues(kill mobs around npc(s) in a mission)

-Escorts(clear to the kidnap/escort, head back to the entrance and handle ambushes that occur on the way)

-Defeat boss (kill boss and clear the room/near the room they're in).

-Click glowies around the map (guarded by mobs and essentially mimicing almost a defeat all)

 

.... and more.... then it becomes a more compelling in damage and suvivability terms, that a Brute is going to be more effective 1-50 progressively than a scrapper.   

 

 

 

 

To hit this home more damage wise too: here's a level 50 chart comparison for the trapdoor mission thread across ATs

 

Of note from that, the average clear times between the scrapper using savage and a brute using savage are only a measly 2 seconds difference between the two (scrapper being the 2 seconds faster). 

 

--BUT--  That was for an -At-50-Toon-, with slots, power choices, incarnates etc being the same.  Ston clearly states that in terms of survivability he was chewing defense, resistance, etc (but not reds on purpose) inspirations to make the test more focused on damage/time clear. (they were also using willpower so its again meant to be a benchmark for damage clearing not survival/armor set).

 

My point being that leveling 1-50 is going to be different than what not a small number of people thread are focused on (ie post 50 damage considerations and survivability thinking) with comparisons of scrapper vs brute.  

 

 

So, in conclusion,  I just dont find the evidence to be compelling, given your goals and choices for savage/radiation(solid pick imo btw for so many other reasons) for doing solo, story arc missions, that a scrapper would be more effective than a brute, even if you factor play style variables either.

 

  

[Erratic1]

18 minutes ago, Sanguinesun said:

 

2.  Brute damage is effective but increases in effectivity the more you're dealing damage/taking damage.  As a general rule, instead of thinking on max fury bar giving you max damage, think in terms of half a bar for a reasonable average.   Scrappers by contrast get more of their damage through their critical chance and damage. 

 

A Brute's Fury bar passes through 50% but does not stay there. If its going upward it will level off up in the 80-85% range. Not sure what one would do to try to hold 50%.

[Sanguinesun]

9 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

A Brute's Fury bar passes through 50% but does not stay there. If its going upward it will level off up in the 80-85% range. Not sure what one would do to try to hold 50%.

 

 

That was not the point being made and rather strange that you've made it.

 

The point being made was for a statistical average to compare the damage output of a scrapper, not that a brute is able to maintain some sort of 50%.   Fury is of course a constant dynamic depending on the brute's interactions.  Because a brute's going to have encounters where they've zero fury, middling fury, and near max fury, the 50% was being meant to exemplify a numeric average and nothing else for the comparative purposes with that of the scrappers criticals if the two are being compared, say for the same sort of mission interactions whilst level 1-50.

 

 

Edited April 29 by Sanguinesun

[Infinitum]

10 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

A Brute's Fury bar passes through 50% but does not stay there. If its going upward it will level off up in the 80-85% range. Not sure what one would do to try to hold 50%.

 

I think it's actually a fair assessment to say 75 is what a brute would average because it's really fast for fury to generate.  That is one thing that irks me - that hitting 100 is all but impossible and rare enough that I can't recall having ever hit 100 Fury since the changes. 

Edited April 29 by Infinitum

[Sanguinesun]

10 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

 

I think it's actually a fair assessment to say 75 is what a brute would average because it's really fast for fury to hit max.  That is one thing that irks me - that hitting 100 is all but impossible and rare enough that I can't recall having ever hit 100 Fury since the changes. 

 

And in the vein of comparing with a scrapper to a brute while leveling them up in terms of the context of the op's wants, that's also why I placed it more at the 50% to contrast with that average: that the brute will still be more compelling to do more damage through the overall variety of missions that the OP would encounter as they traverse through different story arcs. 

 

If we up it to 75%, it skews things even more in favor of a brute in that same context, compellingly.

Edited April 29 by Sanguinesun

[Erratic1]

35 minutes ago, Sanguinesun said:

 

 

That was not the point being made and rather strange that you've made it.

 

The point being made was for a statistical average to compare the damage output of a scrapper, not that a brute is able to maintain some sort of 50%.   Fury is of course a constant dynamic depending on the brute's interactions.  Because a brute's going to have encounters where they've zero fury, middling fury, and near max fury, the 50% was being meant to exemplify a numeric average and nothing else for the comparative purposes with that of the scrappers criticals if the two are being compared, say for the same sort of mission interactions whilst level 1-50.

 

 

 

Fury decays sufficiently slowly that were a solo Brute resting between fights to full health/end, they are likely entering the next fight at 20-30 Fury (observations from a weekend of fighting things with the difficulty a little to high while making comparisons to the difficulty a Tanker I am also levelling). A couple of attacks (incoming and outgoing) and the Brute should be quickly back in the 80%+ range.

 

Infinitum's 75% is probably more accurate, depending on length of fight, with the average likely running higher the longer the fights are.

[Sanguinesun]

2 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

 

Fury decays sufficiently slowly that were a solo Brute resting between fights to full health/end, they are likely entering the next fight at 20-30 Fury (observations from a weekend of fighting things with the difficulty a little to high while making comparisons to the difficulty a Tanker I am also levelling). A couple of attacks (incoming and outgoing) and the Brute should be quickly back in the 80%+ range.

 

Infinitum's 75% is probably more accurate, depending on length of fight, with the average likely running higher the longer the fights are.

 

You still seem to not be getting what either of us are stating...

[Erratic1]

1 minute ago, Sanguinesun said:

 

You still seem to not be getting what either of us are stating...

 

 I get perfectly well what you're stating. You on the other hand....