Scrapper or Brute?

[hakurr]

i am wanting to make a Savage Melee / Radiation Armor toon what would be better Scrapper or Brute? i mostly play solo so i don't want to have to count on team members to make up for any short fallings. so my question is should i go Scrapper or Brute?

[nihilii]

Radiation is a resistance/healing based set and Brutes have a higher resistance cap + a higher HP pool. Brutes get a lot out of Meltdown, whereas Scrappers bang their head against the 75% cap.

 

As for Savage, it's not one of those sets that rely specifically on damage buffing nor does it have crazy synergy with the Critical Strikes ATO. While the damage balance always inches towards the Scrapper side, here the relative loss is smaller for the Brute than it would be for other choices.

 

Given Savage/Rad, I think there's a strong case to be made for Brute.

[MoonSheep]

if you play solo i’d go scrapper so you’re not constantly feeling the need to chase fury

[Erratic1]

6 minutes ago, MoonSheep said:

if you play solo i’d go scrapper so you’re not constantly feeling the need to chase fury

 

You are positing it being easier to keep fury up on a team?

[MoonSheep]

5 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

You are positing it being easier to keep fury up on a team?

 

yeah - bigger mobs, more chaos. more often you’ll be hopping through sequentially large mobs near each other

 

when solo encounters are often less frequent and don’t last as long

[Erratic1]

5 minutes ago, MoonSheep said:

 

yeah - bigger mobs, more chaos. more often you’ll be hopping through sequentially large mobs near each other

 

when solo encounters are often less frequent and don’t last as long

Fury builds because you are attacking or being attacked. Fewer things attacking you due to being focused on other players and spending time moving because your target got killed faster due to others attacking your target is less Fury.

 

The reason Brutes move off on their own is often due to a team denying them Fury opportunities.

Edited April 22 by Erratic1

[MoonSheep]

3 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

Fury builds because you are attacking or being attacked. Fewer things attacking you due to being focused on other players and spending time moving because your target got killed faster due to others attacking your target is less Fury.

 

The reason Brutes move off on their own is often due to a team denying them Fury opportunities.

 

all the more reason to choose a scrapper then - i’ve never been a fan of brutes

[bAss_ackwards]

Many teams can also have hard or soft crowd controls as part of their regular attacks or as part of their deliberate mass control abilities, which can eliminate a lot of the "getting hit" part.

 

Regardless of lower caps, I always prefer Scrapper because at any moment you can flip out and hit for double damage. 💥

[Erratic1]

41 minutes ago, MoonSheep said:

 

all the more reason to choose a scrapper then - i’ve never been a fan of brutes

So your original response should simply have been, "I'd go with scrapper", or, "Scrapper, because I don't like Brutes".

[Dying Eagle]

@nihilii

 I liked your response for why Brute makes more sense for Sav/Rad. I’m curious what you would advise for Titan Weapons. I am trying to decide if I should be a Brute or Scrapper. Since it’s an END hog, I was thinking of pairing it with Will Power, Elec, or Energy (I prefer not to run bio for thematic reasons). Elec is a res based set, so I’d lean brute for that I guess. But willpower and energy are probably pretty decent on both. Sorry to hijack the thread, but maybe this will also provide insight into why certain power pools are picked for scrapper vs brute and I’d love to learn. 

What are your thoughts?

 

Edited April 22 by Dying Eagle

[MoonSheep]

14 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

So your original response should simply have been, "I'd go with scrapper", or, "Scrapper, because I don't like Brutes".

 

shhh, i need to hide my disdain for certain ATs under semi plausible excuses

[Erratic1]

DoTs do not scale with crits do they

1 hour ago, nihilii said:

Radiation is a resistance/healing based set and Brutes have a higher resistance cap + a higher HP pool. Brutes get a lot out of Meltdown, whereas Scrappers bang their head against the 75% cap.

 

As for Savage, it's not one of those sets that rely specifically on damage buffing nor does it have crazy synergy with the Critical Strikes ATO. While the damage balance always inches towards the Scrapper side, here the relative loss is smaller for the Brute than it would be for other choices.

 

Given Savage/Rad, I think there's a strong case to be made for Brute.

 

Damage over time scales with Fury. I forget if there is a mechanism scaling crits to damage over time or not. I do know I made both a Savage Melee/Electric Scrapper and Brute. I think after testing Brute performed better but let me get home and confirm before I say for certain.

[Erratic1]

Found it, and I misremembered. It was Savage/Shield Scrapper vs Savage/Electrical Brute in their mid-20s. Scrapper edged Brute, 13s to 16s.

 

 

[Haijinx]

44 minutes ago, Dying Eagle said:

@nihilii

 I liked your response for why Brute makes more sense for Sav/Rad. I’m curious what you would advise for Titan Weapons. I am trying to decide if I should be a Brute or Scrapper. Since it’s an END hog, I was thinking of pairing it with Will Power, Elec, or Energy (I prefer not to run bio for thematic reasons). Elec is a res based set, so I’d lean brute for that I guess. But willpower and energy are probably pretty decent on both. Sorry to hijack the thread, but maybe this will also provide insight into why certain power pools are picked for scrapper vs brute and I’d love to learn. 

What are your thoughts?

 

TW is a choice of those willing to trade player discomfort for performance.

 

And the numbers even post nerf seem to favor Scrappers.  

 

This is true of any Melee primary, really, thus the discussions.   Some Secondaries favor Brutes over Scrappers.  

[Herotu]

I posted a link to a Scrapper guide yesterday.

 

If you watch the video you will see that Savage Rad would be very good on Scrapper, and why.

[nihilii]

2 hours ago, Dying Eagle said:

@nihilii

 I liked your response for why Brute makes more sense for Sav/Rad. I’m curious what you would advise for Titan Weapons. I am trying to decide if I should be a Brute or Scrapper. Since it’s an END hog, I was thinking of pairing it with Will Power, Elec, or Energy (I prefer not to run bio for thematic reasons). Elec is a res based set, so I’d lean brute for that I guess. But willpower and energy are probably pretty decent on both. Sorry to hijack the thread, but maybe this will also provide insight into why certain power pools are picked for scrapper vs brute and I’d love to learn. 

What are your thoughts?

 

I think:
- TW/ is such a powerhouse it will work well on either AT. It is very bursty and with long recharges so it does good with the Scrapper ATO. But it's no slouch on a Brute either.

- /elec works better on Brutes for the reasons you listed (plus having taunt baked in your attacks is always nice on powersets with damage auras)

- /energy is, in my opinion, significantly better on Brutes than Scrappers *if* you're willing to use the T9, as Brutes have significantly more HP than Scrappers. It's an excellent set for Scrappers nonetheless because /energy is already one of the greats before T9 use...

- /wp would likely fare better on Brutes for the res cap (which you can hit on S/L with the T9) and higher HP to fuel regen. That being said, /wp is /wp... aka not very good relative to almost any other option, in my opinion. On Scrappers /wp at least comes with the advantage of a mild aggro aura, on Brutes this advantage fades as every Brute comes with an aggro aura

[Lazarus]

On 4/22/2024 at 2:39 PM, nihilii said:

Radiation is a resistance/healing based set and Brutes have a higher resistance cap + a higher HP pool. Brutes get a lot out of Meltdown, whereas Scrappers bang their head against the 75% cap

 The res cap only really matter for S/L cap. the other resistances benefit greatly.  BUT

the other aspect of meltdow is the +dam. which brutes get very little benefit, 

however scrappers absolutely turn into murder machines with it.

[Yomo Kimyata]

I think it comes down to which AT do you prefer to play?  For me, scrapper is more active.  In order to get the most out of the build you will want to figure out where to put the ATOs in order to increase your damage.  for a brute, it's a more straightforward smashie-smashie.

[Sovera]

Rad is resistance based. Brutes get resistances to 90% instead of 75% and a bigger HP pool so Brutes. There is the interaction of Fury boosting DoT numbers which is Savage's thing. Ultimately there is the 'are going to level it or play it?' because for leveling Brutes feel a lot better than Scrappers do.

 

The thing about Brutes not having Fury in teams is pretty obsolete. Brutes have little problems with Fury even in teams after the Fury pass the HC devs did precisely to mitigate this problem.

[hakurr]

this will be a toon that i will be leveling threw story lines but will be solo most of the time exception of some TF's.

[nihilii]

13 hours ago, Lazarus said:

 The res cap only really matter for S/L cap. the other resistances benefit greatly.  BUT

the other aspect of meltdow is the +dam. which brutes get very little benefit, 

however scrappers absolutely turn into murder machines with it.

I think this is truer for SO builds but shifts somewhat on IOs + incarnates.

During Meltdown, /rad can surpass 75% S/L/F/E/T res even before taking damage or using Barrier. Practically this means you will be hardcapped quite often, and S/L/E alone covers most of the damage the game throws at you. There is excellent synergy cycling Meltdown and Hybrid Melee too.

Likewise, +41% damage (for Scrappers) is good but it's dampened by a 3s animation for 60s duration + 10s recovery crash. On SOs this is worth it. When you have Musculature and set bonuses and damage procs and a Gaussian proc in your Build Up and all, the juice is less worth the squeeze.

 

No matter the AT, Meltdown as offensive tool never worked for me because Elude-like recovery crashes are brutal. The time I spend handling endurance at the end seems to counteract the benefit of +1 extra damage SO for a minute. Perhaps not 1:1, I think we come out ahead ever so slightly, just not as big as it might look on paper.

The Brute faces the same recovery crash, of course. As you rightfully argue, Brutes get less out of +dam. So if Meltdown is slightly positive for Scrappers, then it should be less so for Brutes - neutral or perhaps even slightly negative.

However, that is my point in a nutshell: the defensive boost of Meltdown is significantly more important, as going from 70% res to 90% res triples your survivability.

I run tight end builds and have no discipline. Your mileage may vary. I could see Meltdown working well for someone who always activates the 3s animation while jumping and either always monitors their endurance or builds with enough surplus to cruise through the -recovery.

[Erratic1]

14 hours ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

I think it comes down to which AT do you prefer to play?  For me, scrapper is more active.  In order to get the most out of the build you will want to figure out where to put the ATOs in order to increase your damage.  for a brute, it's a more straightforward smashie-smashie.

 

Figuring out where to put ATOs is activity? Is that not a one time activity?

[Haijinx]

1 minute ago, Erratic1 said:

 

Figuring out where to put ATOs is activity? Is that not a one time activity?

 

Yep, and one where others have already done it.  Most of the Pylon time types spreadsheets say where they put the proc

[Erratic1]

Thought about this on the drive to work this morning and find myself in agreement with @Yomo Kimyata to the extent there is no overriding consideration greatly favoring one AT over the other--lean Scrapper for damage, Brute for survivability.

[Haijinx]

On full teams with support the Brute is definitely more buff friendly with the 90% resist caps and more hp

 

With a set like Invulnerability the Brute is definitely harder to kill than Scrapper Invul even solo. 

 

So this can work in the Brutes favor.  If durability is a goal.   Scrappers are fairly sturdy for most content of course.