yOu ShOuLD cHaNGe kNoCkBAck to KnoCKdoWN!

[Maelwys]

Like many (most?) here I enjoy the mitigation of Knockback, but not the disruptiveness.

When soloing it's less of a concern than when teaming, but even then KnockBACK (and to a lesser extent KnockUP) is inherently counterproductive for damage output purposes because punting your target out of range of a followup Melee attack prevents optimal attack chaining. It gets even worse whenever a power doesn't have a 100% chance for Knockback/Knockup; as you become unable to reliably predict an enemy's position - it might stay where it is or you might need to move after it. Using the "Follow" button can partially mitigate this, but that results in YOU moving unpredictably instead - which can play merry havoc with PBAoEs and static "patch" psuedopet abilities.
  

2 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

How many character and powers have you slotted KB to KD in?

...

If the powerset was that disruptive, the DEVs would have removed it long before the Sunset.

 

There is no "random" nature to it.

...

If they are taunted and get knocked away, they run right back to you - they can't attack your teammates - and they can't attack you until they get back into combat range.

From top to bottom:

ALL OF THEM.
Aside from the inherent unslottable powers like Nemesis Staff, On Homecoming I don't have a single Knockback ability on a single character which isn't converted to Knockdown. That includes things like Mastermind Henchmen and pseudopets (e.g. Bonfire) as well as the character themselves.
To be fair, it helps that most useful KB-inflicting abilities lend themselves to Proc bombing, and so optimal slotting is typically 2x HO Acc/Dams plus 4x Procs (including FF +Rech and a KB->KD IO).

Energy Blast is something of a Black Sheep.
Most of the other KB inflicting abilities in damage-orientated powersets were in fact converted to Knockdown over the years (I found the changes to MM henchmen abilities like Robotics and Thugs particularly welcome!) but the KB in Energy Blast has been left intact. The CoH Devs were keenly aware that some people enjoy YEET and FREEM; so leaving a Powerset devoted to that kind of playstyle made sense. That doesn't mean the powerset isn't disruptive on teams; and to be blunt if it didn't cause problems then you wouldn't see complaints about it.

As Shin Magmus has already pointed out: any effect with a sub-100% activation chance is inherently random. And that includes Procs.
The difference here is that KB effects when they activate change foe positions - and randomly changing a foe's position causes problems.
The reason a lot of people detest teammates with knockback effects is that they don't have control over when the enemy's position will suddenly change - and if the person activating the KB-inflicting powers can't even tell when the effect will kick in?!? Yeah, that's a problem.

Finally, a lot of mobs won't clump neatly unless you break line of sight. Even if an entity has "Prefer-Melee" AI, as long as it has a ranged attack recharged and available it'll use that attack before closing into melee.
As a result, quite often what happens is that a bunch of enemies start off meleeing the Tank..  then a KB effect hits them, knocking some of them away... then the ones that were knocked away will stand back up and fire off any available ranged attacks at the Tank BEFORE closing to melee range again. The "scattering" caused by KB powers therefore unclumps those enemies for several seconds (which is typically long enough that a wave of AoE damage effects around the tank would have taken them out had they not been scattered) and results in the Tank getting hit by several Ranged attacks instead of Melee attacks (usually not a major issue, but some tanks still pump Melee defence rather than the other positionals).
So whilst most of the time inflicting AoE KB isn't going to cause a team wipe, it does usually slow down the kill speed as well as disrupt any abilities that require careful positioning (AoE and patch powers). Therefore it's not exactly surprising to see people becoming annoyed by them.

I'm not saying that everyone who uses AoE KB is intentionally a troll (although I know of at least one player - a close family member in fact - who only plays an Energy Blaster whenever he's feeling the need to annoy people) and I'm aware that it's very superheroey to send mooks flying across the screen with a single blow.
However I am saying that I believe Knockback - and particularly non-guaranteed Knockback - is inherently disruptive by design - and therefore if you're intending to use those powers alongside teammates then those teammates are entitled to become annoyed at it. That doesn't give them the right to mouth off at you; but I wouldn't raise an eyebrow at you being asked politely to stop it or take a hike.
 

Edited July 2 by Maelwys

[UltraAlt]

2 hours ago, Shin Magmus said:

 Please don't lie when you quote me

 

How did I "lie"?

You maybe just trolling at this point, but that is what  you typed.

 

2 hours ago, Shin Magmus said:

the randomness is clearly defined in the powers themselves and verifiable in-game, but you can check City of Data for a more reliable source.  Energy Blast's AoE KB is a chance, and the chance is not 100%.  Some of the enemies will go where you intended when you use Explosive Blast or Energy Torrent, but other enemies will *randomly* be left behind.

 

So what you are saying that the powers for that set has just as much randomness as any other set that has AoE and cones.

Big shock.

I can see the validity of your comments now.

 

Thanks for making that clear.

 

[tidge]

3 hours ago, Videra said:

This is a thread that definitely needed to exist.

Please just slot KB->KD, the effect on KB is incredibly disruptive and actively makes the game harder for your team. That is all.

 

I agree the thread needs to exist: It needs to exist to explain to players with a Knockback allergy how they can mitigate their issue. (AoE Immobilize)

 

My experience: Playing a character that does knockback is an excellent way to understand how to play with a teammate that generates knockback.

 

There are pretty much only two types of powers that I will be certain to slot a KB->KD piece in:

1. Attacks that vector enemies away at 360° away from a point (e.g. Meteor, Nova)
2. AoE "controls"

It is funny to watch Meteor the first time... but that sort of scatter makes cleanup rather confusing IMO.

[Lunar Ronin]

3 hours ago, Laucianna said:

At the end of the day it's a team game, I understand wanting to use KB same as MM wanting to use group fly on MSR, but if your small bit of enjoyment is making the game less fun for 7-47 other people then you have to ask yourself, is it worth it to keep that?

 

It's a bit of a different situation regarding Masterminds and Group Fly.  It's not just about fun.  A Mastermind using Group Fly on an ITF, Hamidon raid, Rikti mothership raid, Seed of Hamidon, etc., is actually substantially more effective than one that doesn't.  From a decade of experience, a Mastermind that doesn't use Group Fly during the pylon phase of a MSR will consistently lose henchmen and need to continually resummon, re-equip, and re-upgrade them because the henchmen are essentially being dragged through all of the mobs on the ground, and therefore lose DPS.  A Mastermind that uses Group Fly during the pylon phase will keep their henchmen much more survivable, and therefore does much more DPS.  In addition, a Mastermind needs to use Group Fly in order for their henchmen to be able to attack the Rikti drop ship.

 

Plus, Group Fly only impacts teammates, not league mates, and can be easily turned off at Null the Gull in Pocket D.  If people are too lazy to take the two minutes to do so, then that's on them.

Edited July 2 by Lunar Ronin

[Maelwys]

2 minutes ago, tidge said:

I agree the thread needs to exist: It needs to exist to explain to players with a Knockback allergy how they can mitigate their issue. (AoE Immobilize)

100% agreed that AoE immobs are great for this since the recent balance pass.
But under the hood that's really just making someone else on the team convert your Knockback into Knockdown... and presumably if the person with KB abilities actually enjoys the look and feel of inflicting KB on foes then they'd get annoyed at seeing their powers "nerfed" by a teammate...?

And for the poor Melee toons who failed to take any AoE immobilises; it really just devolves into this:



In terms of putting a choke chain on your own KB abilities there's certainly something of an enhancement-slot tax downside involved at present; and IMO a Null-the-Gull option would be much better than having to use multiple KB>KD IOs everywhere.

[Skyhawke]

From a Dev point of view, how much trouble would it be to make a toggle power or click or something that turns KB to KD without having to slot for it? I have kb to kd slotted in all the yeet powers on my human only PB and it does end up taking set bonuses away for having to slot in that single IO just to not be "that guy" on a team.

[UltraAlt]

4 minutes ago, Skyhawke said:

From a Dev point of view, how much trouble would it be to make a toggle power or click or something that turns KB to KD without having to slot for it?

 

I've seen this same thing asked in at least one other thread about knockback.

As far as I can tell, it isn't going to happen.

People complained enough that they provided to different enhancements that turn KB to KD. Those are the DEV solution.

 

6 minutes ago, Skyhawke said:

I have kb to kd slotted in all the yeet powers on my human only PB and it does end up taking set bonuses away for having to slot in that single IO just to not be "that guy" on a team.

 

Thanks for your infl.

I make good infl selling those.

[Maelwys]

2 minutes ago, Skyhawke said:

From a Dev point of view, how much trouble would it be to make a toggle power or click or something that turns KB to KD without having to slot for it? I have kb to kd slotted in all the yeet powers on my human only PB and it does end up taking set bonuses away for having to slot in that single IO just to not be "that guy" on a team.

Honestly, it'd be tricky to cover all the bases without simulating the effect of a KB>KD IO.

You could grant yourself a reduction to Knockup, Knockback Strength (self only) but that wouldn't affect pseudopet powers.

From a technical standpoint the only really foolproof method is to grant a sizable amount of Knockback and Knockup resistance to the mob you're hitting (typical values listed are "+10000% Knockup, Knockback Resistance") but if you do that via a "proccing" set bonus effect attached to your powers (the usual method) then the resistance would get applied at the same time as the ability that inflicts KB - so you'd knock the foe back and THEN it'd become resistant to further KB for X seconds. No good. And if you set it up as an Aura affecting every hostile creature within X feet of you; that'd mean nobody attacking anything around you would inflict KB (spoiling the fun of other Energy Blasters).

[Shin Magmus]

     The existence of powers that have guaranteed KB or KD (Upthrust and Enhanced Water Burst are both 16 target AoEs with guaranteed/100% chance of KD) has been what really invalidated Energy Blast as a set for quite a while now.  Even if you specifically wanted to push enemies around and have it be consistent, Gale is far and away a better power than all of Energy Blast as a set.  Until the devs change something about Energy Blast: you need KB-to-KD slotted in all of the AoEs just to not be actively detrimental to your team. 

[tidge]

21 minutes ago, Maelwys said:

100% agreed that AoE immobs are great for this since the recent balance pass.
But under the hood that's really just making someone else on the team convert your Knockback into Knockdown... and presumably if the person with KB abilities actually enjoys the look and feel of inflicting KB on foes then they'd get annoyed at seeing their powers "nerfed" by a teammate...?

 

Not an issue: A player that uses KB certainly encounters enemy spawns that haven't yet been knocked back, and immobilized spawn would be no different to that player.

[ZemX]

15 minutes ago, tidge said:

I agree the thread needs to exist: It needs to exist to explain to players with a Knockback allergy how they can mitigate their issue. (AoE Immobilize)

 

It's easier to just leave at the next polite opportunity to do so.   I don't have to modify my build to deal with someone else's poor team gameplay and nobody else needs to hear me griping about their knockback in-game, where it won't be received well anyway.   Everybody wins.

 

Ironic that you mention AoE Immob though.  I follow the same advice with AoE Immob enthusiasts as I do with careless KBers.  They are two sides of the same coin.  One separates packed groups of enemies and the other prevents them from packing in the first place.  Either way, they both act effectively as team damage debuffer by screwing the effectiveness of most teammates' AoE damage powers.

 

Yes, these powers can both be used much more effectively.  But I PuG... and they rarely are that I have seen.  And if I'm really the only person bothered by it, it's only fair I leave that team and create a space for someone that might enjoy it more than I do.

[tidge]

Like I said: If a player is THAT ANNOYED by knockback from another player... that player can pick a power to deal with their annoyance. I'm not asking players to modify their builds to suit my tastes and tolerances, I am asking them to modify their builds to suit their tastes and tolerances.

 

I still encounter players that won't go to Pocket D to change the way Group Fly affects them... and those players will still ##### about it.

[Maelwys]

10 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

Quote

As Shin Magmus has already pointed out: any effect with a sub-100% activation chance is inherently random.

You mean like practically all the powers in the game?

Astonishing.

It's mind-boggling that someone would try to imply that only powers with knockback have a hit check.

No, that is not what is being said here.

This is not about power "Hit Checks"
It's about activation chances of secondary effects that are tied to those powers.

If a power has an effect with a 100% activation chance, then if you hit with it; the effect will trigger.
Nova has a 100% chance to inflict a Knockback effect. So hitting a mob with it produces predictable behaviour.
Energy Torrent has a 60% chance to inflict a Knockback effect. So hitting a mob with it produces unpredictable "random" behaviour.

A lot of AoE Knockback powers possess this inherent unpredictability; and so using them on a large mob of foes will cause randomized scatter rather than guaranteed forced movement.

Some people enjoy randomness - well known examples from TTG would be "Wild Magic" or "Slot Machine" style powersets.
But an awful lot of people prefer order to chaos; and inflicting chaos in a team situation with someone who prefers order causes annoyance.

To make matters worse, a lot of people on the autistic/OCD spectrum (myself included) gravitate towards Computer Games; and encountering this sort of thing tends to be like nails on a chalkboard to them. Personally if someone started overusing things like KB abilities or Sonic Cage I'd just roll my eyes and run ahead to find another group of mobs to solo (each to his own, and IMO telling someone how to play is more rude than activating annoying powers) but I know of others over the years who've felt creating a stink in game about it to be worth the hassle.

  

10 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

Quote

....when the ones that were knocked away will stand back up and fire off any available ranged attacks at the Tank BEFORE closing to melee range again.

They can't do ranged attacks if they are taunted. They have to move into melee range with the tank before they can attack if they are taunted and they can only attack the tank.But, as I said, there are so many tanks these days that don't have taunt - the signature power of the set as far as I'm concerned.

It's only the Taunt ability that inflicts a range debuff; not Taunt Auras or Punchvoke or Gauntlet.
Most toons who end up tanking (Tankers/Brutes/Scrappers/EATs/whatever) are not going to be actively keeping the Taunt power itself constantly up on an aggro cap's worth of foes.

Although to Devil's-Advocate myself here, I suppose if a team *is* having to play that defensively then inviting Luminara having someone play Extreme Rage-Mode Pinball Madness with the surrounding mooks might actually be welcome.

[Shin Magmus]

... laughs

 

[lemming]

54 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

They can't do ranged attacks if they are taunted.

False.  They have their range reduced, but that doesn't mean they have to close further than needed.

[Maelwys]

45 minutes ago, tidge said:

Quote

100% agreed that AoE immobs are great for this since the recent balance pass.
But under the hood that's really just making someone else on the team convert your Knockback into Knockdown... and presumably if the person with KB abilities actually enjoys the look and feel of inflicting KB on foes then they'd get annoyed at seeing their powers "nerfed" by a teammate...?

Not an issue: A player that uses KB certainly encounters enemy spawns that haven't yet been knocked back, and immobilized spawn would be no different to that player.

But (and I'm not trying to be pedantic here, but genuinely curious) surely there'd be only a few possible scenarios there:

(i) Player with KB abilities encounters a fresh mob, uses powers, powers inflict KnockBACK.
(ii) Player with KB abilities encounters a mob which has already been immobilised, uses powers, powers inflict KnockDOWN.

Since the recent balance pass, most AoE immobilises now grant mobs a large amount of Resistance to KU/KB effects rather than either granting them Protection to KU/KB effects or Doing Nothing... although there are still a few outliers like "Tenebrous Tentacles".

So before, an Earth Controller would have completely shut down powers like Energy torrent.. but these days it just converts them to Knockdown. That's much better from a mechanics point of view, but it still changes the behavior of any KB-inflicting abilities that hit the immobilized spawn. So surely the player that is using KB still effectively ends up having the effects of their powers altered; potentially annoying that player even if it pleases the rest of the team?
 

Edited July 2 by Maelwys

[ZemX]

31 minutes ago, tidge said:

Like I said: If a player is THAT ANNOYED by knockback from another player... that player can pick a power to deal with their annoyance. I'm not asking players to modify their builds to suit my tastes and tolerances, I am asking them to modify their builds to suit their tastes and tolerances.

 

I understood all that.  And then I said what I said.  Don't do this.  It's a bad suggestion.  It is not worth screwing over one's planned build just to deal with this annoyance when it's easier to walk out the door and keep your build intact.  This hardly happens that often or to the degree where it's even that annoying that I DO walk out.

 

One example I can think of was one PuG with a Energy Sentinel who would literally follow my tanker into a packed group of enemies to Nova them to the four corners of the room every time it was available.  And the asshole definitely had decent recharge in his build.  It was almost every spawn, if not every spawn.  His scatter made sure it would take long enough to finish off the spawn that he'd be ready to do it again the next group.   Another time, I recall a FF bubbler who went around with that big bubble that pushes everything away.  He wasn't exactly charging in to scatter, but he definitely and totally uselessly kept pushing enemies away from the front line meleers, of which I was one.

 

That's the kind of shit that I say is easier to walk away from than to screw over one's build to try to deal with.  Not everyone even has access to an AoE Immob and some that do would potentially have to pick an entirely different epic than they planned, meaning this costs mulitple preferred power picks just to clean up someone else's mess.  No thanks.

 

40 minutes ago, tidge said:

I still encounter players that won't go to Pocket D to change the way Group Fly affects them... and those players will still ##### about it.

 

Talking to the Gull is reasonable to suggest.  Fucking over one's build to solve a similarly minor annoyance isn't.  I'm not even sure why you mention both in the same post. 

[AmrasNotHere]

KB Enjoyer Opinion Alert:

 

 

Personally I enjoy KB from energy blast, but not everyone is going to commit to use it to its full potential (or even understands its use). Fold spacing a mob into a corner and putting them into a never ending fall is a great use of energy blasts KB if done in the appropriate map. Positioning yourself to toss a mob towards your taunt is another positive use to capitalize on its effects. Such use takes an understanding of how often it will work, how far they can go, and how you will respond.

 

There are certain scenarios where I will swap in KD to 1 or 2 of my powers based on factors where I can't utilize KB efficiently or risk pushing a critter into a map wall (cave), but for the most part I can utilize the sets knockback to my teams advantage.

 

I'm somewhat surprised there's so many opinions about KB making fights take longer when some of them also mention fights aren't long enough elsewhere.

[UltraAlt]

5 minutes ago, lemming said:

False.  They have their range reduced, but that doesn't mean they have to close further than needed.

 

I do believe that they have to be in melee range in order to use their ranged attacks. How far that "melee range" extends, I don't know.

My point was, that they can't get knocked way, pop-up, and fire off ranged attacks ... especially at other characters ... if the tank has them taunted.

And, clearly, they will run back to the tank if they are taunted.

 

In my experience, if I'm playing a tank and I taunt a foe, they run up on me. They don't fire more than once at me from a distance. Much like when you attack a foe with a hold, etc. they usually get one shot off before power takes effect.

But then again, I'm constantly taunting and herding ... I don't even care if some of the enemies get knocked away. It isn't that hard to round them up again ... for me at least.

 

 

[ScarySai]

Look, I don't care that much unless you're talking something like an unconverted stormy making fights take way longer than they should.

 

But I don't think it needs to be explained why uncontrolled scatter is bad for clear speeds.

[Maelwys]

3 minutes ago, ZemX said:

 

One example I can think of was one PuG with a Energy Sentinel who would literally follow my tanker into a packed group of enemies to Nova them to the four corners of the room every time it was available.  And the asshole definitely had decent recharge in his build.  It was almost every spawn, if not every spawn.  His scatter made sure it would take long enough to finish off the spawn that he'd be ready to do it again the next group.

Was their name "Sycorax" by any chance? 🙄

[UltraAlt]

3 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

But I don't think it needs to be explained why uncontrolled scatter is bad for clear speeds.

 

My assumption is most players don't care about clear speeds.

Seems to be an L337 end-gamer issue to me.

[ScarySai]

That's certainly an opinion.

[tidge]

4 minutes ago, ZemX said:

Talking to the Gull is reasonable to suggest.  Fucking over one's build to solve a similarly minor annoyance isn't.  I'm not even sure why you mention both in the same post. 

 

Talking to Null the Gull is a suggestion made to others, just as asking other players to slot KB->KD into their powers or taking Immobilizes. some may see this as a wide spectrum, but they are all on the same spectrum.

 

2 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

In my experience, if I'm playing a tank and I taunt a foe, they run up on me. They don't fire more than once at me from a distance. Much like when you attack a foe with a hold, etc. they usually get one shot off before power takes effect.

But then again, I'm constantly taunting and herding ... I don't even care if some of the enemies get knocked away. It isn't that hard to round them up again ... for me at least.

 

Tanker Taunts also have a large baseline duration, as well as an inherently fast recharge time. It is pretty basic for a Tanker with Taunt, even without having it slotted, to keep attention at the aggro cap. If a Tanker sees enemies being knocked back... they should be treated no differently than any other critters that happen to be at a distance.

[ZemX]

4 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

Look, I don't care that much unless you're talking something like an unconverted stormy making fights take way longer than they should.

 

But I don't think it needs to be explained why uncontrolled scatter is bad for clear speeds.

 

Same.  Not everyone cares about clear speed.   That's why I prefer to leave than to mix it up with people who might have different goals than I do.  This whole never-ending forum flame-war about KB goes way back but in my opinion was always unnecessary.   It's a "problem" that solves itself because either the offending KBer gets kicked, the offended KB-hater leaves, or nobody cares and the world keeps on spinning.

 

If this thread is good for anything it's a demonstration of why you shouldn't even bother engaging people about it in game.  If we can't agree here, we won't agree there.  Don't even bother.