Minimal FX Kheld Forms

[ValiantBlu]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

Are they using Nova or Dwarf without transforming? Or are they using their Nictus powers and are more powerful because they are AVs? (It's because they are AVs.)

 

You are so close to the point if you jumped you would crush it under the weight of that thick head of yours

[Troo]

 

[Rudra]

11 minutes ago, ValiantBlu said:

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

Are they using Nova or Dwarf without transforming? Or are they using their Nictus powers and are more powerful because they are AVs? (It's because they are AVs.)

 

You are so close to the point if you jumped you would crush it under the weight of that thick head of yours

That none of the NPC Kheldians use Nova or Dwarf abilities without transforming any more than player Kheldians do? Or that none of the NPC Kheldians that I know of even use the transformations and instead just use human form mode for their combat? Other than the named Novas in the ITF Hard Mode and Sister Valeria's story arc which don't use human form at all.

[megaericzero]

2 hours ago, Rudra said:

SoAs do have to use the Crab Spider backpack to use their Crab Spider attacks. (Edit again: And Arachnos Widows have to use Arachnos Widow Claws  with that extendable blade for their melee attacks.)

You keep coming back to the Crab Spider backpack. I don't think it's as strong a counterpoint as you do.

That only takes up the cape/backpack slot on your costume and people have asked for alternatives for it as well - Arachnoid arms, Meat Doctor backpacks, etc. (As well as generic claws, maces, and rifles for the rest of the SOA.) The backpack's concern is that not many (any?) "extra arms" models use its skeleton/rigging.

 

 

[Rudra]

15 minutes ago, megaericzero said:

You keep coming back to the Crab Spider backpack. I don't think it's as strong a counterpoint as you do.

That only takes up the cape/backpack slot on your costume and people have asked for alternatives for it as well - Arachnoid arms, Meat Doctor backpacks, etc. (As well as generic claws, maces, and rifles for the rest of the SOA.) The backpack's concern is that not many (any?) "extra arms" models use its skeleton/rigging.

 

 

The point is that SoAs have to use the backpack to use Crab Spider attacks. Assault Rifle characters have to use a gun to shoot things. Kheldians have to use Nova to use Nova attacks and Dwarf to use Dwarf abilities.

 

When it comes to the Kheldian PC, the bonded Kheldian and his/her/their presumed human host are using the Kheldian's full array of abilities in human form. If the Kheldian wants to use another race's abilities, like the more powerful Nova or more robust Dwarf, they have to shift to that other race. They are quite literally turning into something else. That something else is not as versatile as the bonded Kheldian in their human form, but that prior race the Kheldian turns into provides its advantages. If the Kheldian were to turn into absolutely anything else, it would not provide those same advantages. If players want more of the Kheldians' previous bonded races? Ask for them. If the devs are willing to invest the effort, they will get more of the previous races the Kheldians bonded with. What won't happen though, is a transformation into another form with its limited attacks/powers that is the same as the Kheldian's current bonded race's form. Because as far as the lore goes, it does not work that way. Kheldians are not Bio Armor characters mutating or shifting their focus for combat, they are fully transforming into a previously bonded species and using that species' abilities.

 

Edit: Though more previous races for Kheldians is probably out of the question until the Changeling exploit is fixed.

 

 

Edited August 8 by Rudra
Edited to add missing apostrophe.

[megaericzero]

8 minutes ago, Rudra said:

they have to shift to that other race.

So what's wrong with having an option with visuals like this?

(If there's concerns with clipping or the human imitating the nova, let's say your model is curled up in fetal position the whole time while "encased" in the form.)

 

[Rudra]

22 minutes ago, megaericzero said:

So what's wrong with having an option with visuals like this?

(If there's concerns with clipping or the human imitating the nova, let's say your model is curled up in fetal position the whole time while "encased" in the form.)

 

Because she isn't a Kheldian. A Psychic Armor/Construct like that, or whatever that character is using, is a novel idea. Simon in Champions uses a psychic power set like that for instance, and it annoyed me in CO that we couldn't use the same power set. So go ahead and pitch it as an armor set or whatever. Kheldians however are already defined for what they are. And that is a shapeshifting energy race that bonds with another race to extend their lives. And the Nova form power even says the character transforms into an energy beast. Not that it powers up the human form, that it is a complete transformation. The lore states that energy beast as described by the power is a previous race the Kheldian bonded with. Again, a full on transformation, not a simple power up. That character you are showing me isn't transformed. She is manifesting a power shell around herself. That is not the same thing.

 

Hells, if players want the tentacle powers they were using in those unofficial comics, request those be added to the Kheldian power sets. By all means. However, even in those comics, Horus went Nova form to fight as a Nova. (Edit: So those tentacle blasts still won't be as powerful an attack as the Nova possesses.)(Edit again: Hells, while I don't remember those comics very well, it seemed less like a powered up attack and more an attempt to catch the foe off guard with attacks from an unexpected source. That was maintained because Requiem showed he possessed the same abilities and Horus didn't want to be overwhelmed by multiple attacks at the same time.)

 

Edited August 8 by Rudra
Edited again to correct a comma to a period.

[megaericzero]

12 minutes ago, Rudra said:

And the Nova form power even says the character transforms into an energy beast. Not that it powers up the human form, that it is a complete transformation. The lore states that energy beast as described by the power is a previous race the Kheldian bonded with. Again, a full on transformation, not a simple power up. That character you are showing me isn't transformed. She is manifesting a power shell around herself. That is not the same thing.

If you're using the power descriptions as justification, then I need to retake Anatomy 101.

 

 

Power customization has existed for a long time now that openly contradicts the established descriptions of powers.

Allowing the human model to at least show up in some fashion while in nova/dwarf form is no more egregious than these examples, if not allowing more human-than-alien shapeshifting (eg: parts of the alien showing up as ghostly armor rather than it being the main body).

Edited August 8 by megaericzero

[Rudra]

11 minutes ago, megaericzero said:

If you're using the power descriptions as justification, then I need to retake Anatomy 101.

 

 

Power customization has existed for a long time now that openly contradicts the established descriptions of powers.

Allowing the human model to at least show up in some fashion while in nova/dwarf form is no more egregious than these examples, if not allowing more human-than-alien shapeshifting (eg: parts of the alien showing up as ghostly armor rather than it being the main body).

Those are alternate animations. For a power set that does not belong to an AT that is itself defined with a very specific story. Yes, those are coming from different locations of the player chosen model. Kheldians are not such openly generic characters. Their powers are defined by their lore. That lore specifies transformations. Not power origin points. If you want to ask for the Nova to use alternate animations for their attacks? Or the Dwarf? That would fall in line with what you are arguing. So instead of wherever the Nova's attacks normally come from, they come from a different part of the Nova's body. Or they have a different appearance when the Nova fires the attack. That would be in line with what you are posting here.

 

Or if the Nova's or Dwarf's bodies could be colored differently instead of just their auras, that would fall in line with what you are posting here. The better argument for what you are trying to say is the ongoing request for MM pet customizations to allow for different pets to be used. That would fall in line with what is being argued in this thread. (Edit: Though even the MM pet customization requests isn't a full match either. Because MMs lack the establishing lore Kheldians have defining them. However, it would at least be a better argument.)

 

Edited August 8 by Rudra

[megaericzero]

28 minutes ago, Rudra said:

The better argument for what you are trying to say is the ongoing request for MM pet customizations to allow for different pets to be used. That would fall in line with what is being argued in this thread.

If you want to draw a line and say that is in its own category of customization, and then draw a parallel to this, then sure. I already do think henchmen customization should 100% be a thing on this server. My concerns with both are purely in implementation.

 

If someone wants to take Necromancy and dress their zombies up as cute anime girls, that's no more a concern to me than having someone "wear" their dwarf form like a cosplay or have their nova float behind them as a Jojo reference. The previous thread(s) on HEAT form customization have already addressed how a shapeshift that involves staying human - or the player model staying visible - can remain lore-friendly while still allowing that customization; everything from improper/incomplete transformation to absolute mastery over their form allowing two bodies at once.

 

EDIT: (Thought about this after I hit submit.) If you're concerned that I don't care about the lore... I guess that's true? Not in the way it sounds, though. I think the game/NPCs can tell you things like where to go, who to beat up, what other people (NPCs) think about you, or recount what they think you did on a mission; I don't believe they can tell you who you are, where you came from, how you feel, or how you work with absolute finality. To you specifically, Rudra - who has mentioned before that you'll begrudgingly do a distasteful mission in-character, bring a piece of salvage, and delete it at the end to roleplay that you are dropping it off to actively undo your own villainy - I would imagine can see how much room there is for things like form customization even in an archetype that you and greycat believe is as predefined from head to toe as Peacebringers and Warshades are.

Edited August 8 by megaericzero

[Rudra]

37 minutes ago, megaericzero said:

If you want to draw a line and say that is in its own category of customization, and then draw a parallel to this, then sure. I already do think henchmen customization should 100% be a thing on this server. My concerns with both are purely in implementation.

Definite agreement.

 

37 minutes ago, megaericzero said:

that's no more a concern to me than having someone "wear" their dwarf form like a cosplay or have their nova float behind them as a Jojo reference. The previous thread(s) on HEAT form customization have already addressed how a shapeshift that involves staying human - or the player model staying visible - can remain lore-friendly while still allowing that customization; everything from improper/incomplete transformation to absolute mastery over their form allowing two bodies at once.

I've said multiple times that I have no stake in this and was instead trying to point out fallacies in provided arguments. So now I would like to state how annoying it is that I am in a position where I am defending the opposing voices for the OP. So I'm going to break down my stance and hopefully put this to bed.

 

1) The OP is not an alternate animation request. It is a request to change how the powers themselves work. Changing the request to that would have been fine with me. (And I would have basically disappeared from the thread at that point.)

2) Arguing that the Nova and Dwarf forms are part of the lore and so should remain is not a derailment of the topic. It is an argument by the person(s) making the argument to not have them changed.

3) The Kheldians' lore stipulates they are transforming into a previously bonded race to use those races' abilities. So transforming into those races makes sense just like requiring a ranged weapon to use a ranged weapon power set, a shield to use a shield power set, a melee weapon to use a melee weapon power set, and a gun/claw backpack to use gun/claw backpack powers makes sense.

4) Deciding that established game lore is nonsense because it does not line up with a suggestion/request is an invalid counter. This is a MMORPG after all. The lore is the game.

5) The Nova and Dwarf forms are not the player's character and never were. They were previous characters in the Kheldian's very long existence that the Kheldian transforms the character into for whatever task the player decides it is needed for. So it does not make sense to transform into the current host form from the current host form.

6) The argument that NPC Kheldians use Nova and Dwarf abilities while in human form is false because they are using Peacebringer/Warshade standard abilities (even if 1 of them is a merged form of multiple defensive powers) plus their own unique dev assigned power(s). And a simple comparison of what those powers do against the PC Kheldian powers list shows that.

7) Citing a being from another franchise's universe that has to the best of my knowledge no similarities to the Kheldians for why Kheldians should ignore their established lore is a false argument. That character does not follow Kheldian lore because that character is not a Kheldian. And again, this is a lore-based game and the Kheldians have extensive lore established on them including how and why their powers work the way they do.

Edit: Oh yeah:

8 ) Per how the lore reads, if the Nova and/or Dwarf were to have the option of being changed, it would also entail a new set of powers for that new form. Because again, the Kheldian character is transforming into a previously bonded race, and the reason why they transform into Nova and Dwarf forms is to make use of those races' abilities.

 

I'm in favor of more options, believe it or not. I prefer to support things like power customization. The issue I have with the OP and this thread in general are the arguments being made. Like I already told someone else, I had no intentions of taking sides in this debate, I was arguing the arguments. However, it is those same arguments that have drawn me into opposition to the OP. The insistence that the lore does not matter blows my mind. How does the lore not matter in a RPG? How can someone who claims to play and enjoy HEATs not know the lore of those ATs when the game walks you through most of it and claim that all that lore and the missions establishing it mean nothing? What kind of argument is that?

 

Given past precedent, I'm willing to bet my stance is still clear as mud to everyone else on these forums. But there they are.

Edited August 8 by Rudra

[megaericzero]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

The insistence that the lore does not matter blows my mind. How does the lore not matter in a RPG? How can someone who claims to play and enjoy HEATs not know the lore of those ATs when the game walks you through most of it and claim that all that lore and the missions establishing it mean nothing? What kind of argument is that?

I feel like the heart of it is that the pro-form-customization crowd can suggest infinitely many ways that any of the different levels of not-fully-seafood can be explained and fit in with established lore but the opposing crowd will dismiss it as "it's not explicitly written into Sunstorm's dialogue so it can't possibly exist." Like the hero epic archetypes are this divine child that is divorced from the entire rest of the game in every single aspect and dictated by some grand plan left by the old live devs that lays out the movement of every hair follicle from birth to death with zero wiggle room. Even their redside counterparts don't get this level of hardline pushback - at least not as far as I've seen on the S&F forum.

Edited August 8 by megaericzero

[Ghost]

4 hours ago, ValiantBlu said:

You are so close to the point if you jumped you would crush it under the weight of that thick head of yours

Insulting someone doesn’t mean you are right.  
It usually means the exact opposite.

[Rudra]

8 hours ago, megaericzero said:

I feel like the heart of it is that the pro-form-customization crowd can suggest infinitely many ways that any of the different levels of not-fully-seafood can be explained and fit in with established lore but the opposing crowd will dismiss it as "it's not explicitly written into Sunstorm's dialogue so it can't possibly exist." Like the hero epic archetypes are this divine child that is divorced from the entire rest of the game in every single aspect and dictated by some grand plan left by the old live devs that lays out the movement of every hair follicle from birth to death with zero wiggle room. Even their redside counterparts don't get this level of hardline pushback - at least not as far as I've seen on the S&F forum.

Listen, if you and/or they want to pitch not fully transformed? I'll grant that. On the provision that the not fully transformed form's powers are equally not powerful. You only do a 10% shift in the transformation? That form's attacks are doing 10% its normal damage. Ethereal manifestations around the character or stand-like constructs near the character? No, because that goes against the lore. They aren't using constructs or manifestations, they are transforming into another species to fight as.

[ValiantBlu]

11 hours ago, Rudra said:

That none of the NPC Kheldians use Nova or Dwarf abilities without transforming any more than player Kheldians do? Or that none of the NPC Kheldians that I know of even use the transformations and instead just use human form mode for their combat? Other than the named Novas in the ITF Hard Mode and Sister Valeria's story arc which don't use human form at all.

That there's a non-lore reason for some Kheldian hosts to be so much more powerful

Because they're AVs and they need to be, otherwise the game is less fun and the character (villain in this case) less interesting

 

All we're asking for is a little more control over our customization to make the game a little more fun and our characters a little more interesting, it is really annoying that you spend so much time in the costume editor only to stare at the same 2 ghost-like models for 66% of your gameplay.

 

Personally, I asked for "minimal fx" in the OP because I would like to set up some CC macros for changing forms, and create my own transformations

This is also why I pivoted immediately after your first (and only useful) response regarding the model change. Couldn't Null just make my transformation costumes available slots to edit?

 

These nonsensical arguments like

57 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Listen, if you and/or they want to pitch not fully transformed? I'll grant that. On the provision that the not fully transformed form's powers are equally not powerful. You only do a 10% shift in the transformation? That form's attacks are doing 10% its normal damage. Ethereal manifestations around the character or stand-like constructs near the character? No, because that goes against the lore. They aren't using constructs or manifestations, they are transforming into another species to fight as.

So cosmetics should determine power strength? My guy, that goes against the core foundation this game was created on but you have the nerve to point fingers at other people because "MUH LORE". Balance has no place in a cosmetic discussion. Lore, to an extent, but no one is suggesting we get rid of the lore-based transformations, just more options.

 

But what's really perplexing here is that for someone with no stake in this discussion...

19 hours ago, Rudra said:

I don't have a stake in this argument because I won't play a Kheldian. So I'm not arguing in favor of or against the OP.

You sure do seem to be the one driving it

 

If you have nothing of value to offer this conversation other than lore, maybe it's time to move on. As I, and others, have already pointed out your argument on power descriptions is inconsistent with what's actually in the game. Your argument on lore-limitations is inconsistent with that's actually in game. You're now, bizarrely, calling for gameplay balance changes as a trade off for cosmetic options.

 

Please just stop, it's exhausting

 

[Rudra]

2 hours ago, ValiantBlu said:

That there's a non-lore reason for some Kheldian hosts to be so much more powerful

Because they're AVs and they need to be, otherwise the game is less fun and the character (villain in this case) less interesting

Yes. Regardless of whether you are talking about AVs using Kheldian powers, AVs using Blaster powers, AVs using any other set of powers in the game, they are going to be more powerful per attack than any PC in the game. That has nothing to do with Kheldian NPCs using Nova or Dwarf abilities while in human form because they are not doing so. They are using regular Kheldian powers plus some dev assigned additions players don't have access to, and they are using them at an AV level of power. So arguing that AVs hit harder with their version of powers means they are using special transformation versions of powers without the transformations is false. That is the challenge part of the game. Some things are more dangerous to be a challenge to players.

 

2 hours ago, ValiantBlu said:

All we're asking for is a little more control over our customization to make the game a little more fun and our characters a little more interesting, it is really annoying that you spend so much time in the costume editor only to stare at the same 2 ghost-like models for 66% of your gameplay.

If you don't like being in squid or lobster form for 66% of your game play, then don't be. There are multiple guides out there for human form only builds that do very well in all content.

 

2 hours ago, ValiantBlu said:

Personally, I asked for "minimal fx" in the OP

Except it isn't a minimal FX option. A minimal FX option goes into the animation and removes the added effects like glitter and sparkles and other FX, stripping the animation down to just its relevant movements. Using Bright Nova, Dark Nova, White Dwarf, and Black Dwarf applies a character replacement just like when you do Eagle Eye's mission and the game replaces your character with Deadlock to fight Back Alley Brawler. The Nova transformation removes your character, plugs in the Nova character, and that Nova character has its own attacks and resistances. The Dwarf transformation removes your character, plugs in the Dwarf character, and that Dwarf character has its own attacks and resistances. And those attacks have their own animations and their own VFX. It is a complete character replacement, including turning off your own character's powers, including any pool powers you have. (Though I think they were changed to being suppressed instead of just being turned off now.)

 

2 hours ago, ValiantBlu said:

because I would like to set up some CC macros for changing forms,

You already can. Look up Changeling. They do that already to maximize their damage.

 

2 hours ago, ValiantBlu said:

and create my own transformations

Which as the lore reads, will take away those powers you are trying to access. Because those aren't your character's powers. They are the powers the Nova's race possessed. (They just happen to be similar to 4 of the Kheldian's own powers.) They are the powers the Dwarf's race possessed. (Which is why you don't see those same powers in the Kheldian base powers list.)

 

2 hours ago, ValiantBlu said:

 

These nonsensical arguments like

3 hours ago, Rudra said:

Listen, if you and/or they want to pitch not fully transformed? I'll grant that. On the provision that the not fully transformed form's powers are equally not powerful. You only do a 10% shift in the transformation? That form's attacks are doing 10% its normal damage. Ethereal manifestations around the character or stand-like constructs near the character? No, because that goes against the lore. They aren't using constructs or manifestations, they are transforming into another species to fight as.

So cosmetics should determine power strength? My guy, that goes against the core foundation this game was created on but you have the nerve to point fingers at other people because "MUH LORE". Balance has no place in a cosmetic discussion. Lore, to an extent, but no one is suggesting we get rid of the lore-based transformations, just more options.

 

No, cosmetics aren't determining power strength. The transformation is. Again, the Nova and Dwarf are not cosmetic changes any more than when you play as Deadlock is a cosmetic change.

 

2 hours ago, ValiantBlu said:

You sure do seem to be the one driving it

As I already stated:

12 hours ago, Rudra said:

and was instead trying to point out fallacies in provided arguments.

Poor arguments get me. It's my nature to comment on them.

 

2 hours ago, ValiantBlu said:

If you have nothing of value to offer this conversation other than lore, maybe it's time to move on.

I think I am very much contributing to the discussion. Also as I said, while I had no stake in it, it is the arguments being presented that drove me to oppose the OP. See below:

12 hours ago, Rudra said:

I had no intentions of taking sides in this debate, I was arguing the arguments. However, it is those same arguments that have drawn me into opposition to the OP.

 

2 hours ago, ValiantBlu said:

As I, and others, have already pointed out your argument on power descriptions is inconsistent with what's actually in the game. Your argument on lore-limitations is inconsistent with that's actually in game. You're now, bizarrely, calling for gameplay balance changes as a trade off for cosmetic options.

Then here, I'll clarify:

 

An alternate animation not doing what the power name says is fine in my book. Fire Breath is a cone fire attack. At its core, that is all it is. So what if it gets changed to come from your hand instead? It can come from your butt for all I care. It has no lore assigned to it. It can take whatever form fits the character better because it is meant as a generic ability any character can wield. Foot Stomp turning into a ground punch? The core of the power is striking the ground. I don't care if you headbutt the ground to do it. More power to you. It is a generic intended set built around a theme, not around established AT lore.

 

Minimal FX is less good in my book because now you are taking away the theme of the power(s). If the minimal FX manages to maintain the set's theme? Okay, I'm fine with it.

 

Removing a transformation that is established in the game as being a transformation progresses beyond even the minimal FX bit. Now you are asking to take away one of the core traits of an epic AT. And no, epic does not only mean more grand or more powerful or uber-class tier or whatever. Epic also means long narrative or poem. Like the Epic of Gilgamesh. Or the epic that is the Odyssey.  In this case, you are not playing a generic inclined AT with theme based power sets, you are playing a very specifically designed for a very specific story AT. HEATs being the hero side epic story archetype and VEATs being the villain side epic story archetype. That is all they are. ATs with a very specific story that defines where they come from, why they are there, and how their powers work. Only HEATs and VEATs get access to contacts like Alan Desslock who give stories that are only applicable to the HEATs or VEATs depending on the contact. That is the epic part. Now, players don't have to play those story arcs. They don't have to participate in the epic that exists about Kheldians and Arachnos. That does not give them call to change that epic to suit them though, because those ATs are built for their stories.

 

2 hours ago, ValiantBlu said:

Please just stop, it's exhausting

So is constantly having to repeat myself.

 

Edited August 8 by Rudra
Edited to add missing "a" in "are". And again for minor grammatical errors.

[ValiantBlu]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

 

 

So is constantly having to repeat myself.

 

No one is asking you to

I'm asking you to stop repeating yourself

multiple times actually

[Rudra]

2 minutes ago, ValiantBlu said:

No one is asking you to

I'm asking you to stop repeating yourself

multiple times actually

And yet the same arguments that first caused me to involve myself are still being made despite the evidence provided showing they aren't true.

 

Edit: So sure, I'll take a breather. We're just going in circles anyway.

 

Edited August 8 by Rudra

[megaericzero]

4 hours ago, Rudra said:

Now, players don't have to play those story arcs. They don't have to participate in the epic that exists about Kheldians and Arachnos. That does not give them call to change that epic to suit them though, because those ATs are built for their stories.

 

And no one suggested changing the default form VFX, so you don't have to use them on your own characters. How someone else presents their character doesn't impede on your playthrough of the EAT story arcs.

 

The pro side can address concerns from any angle people want; they already know the anti side will dismiss it whether it holds water or not, or move the goal post. For instance: even if the COH universe explicitly states how the forms look in writing and with absolute authority down to the last detail, power proliferation was written as an in-universe event of a guy messing around in his lab and whoops he literally altered the fabric of reality so new powers became available. Before that point, Blasters couldn't be psions and Stalkers couldn't project electricity but suddenly they can.

(I've said before that I think it was egregious for the Paragon devs to explain power proliferation in-universe. The takeaway from this is meant to be that the game lore can has been re/written for new options but I suppose the next response to quote this post will completely ignore that and clap back with "that only explains how existing power sets were spread around!" Or it could just circle back to saying that EATs are exempt from everything because their starting contacts have missions past level 5. Bit of a coin toss which one; maybe both.)

Edited August 8 by megaericzero

[Rudra]

34 minutes ago, megaericzero said:

And no one suggested changing the default form VFX, so you don't have to use them on your own characters. How someone else presents their character doesn't impede on your playthrough of the EAT story arcs.

 

The pro side can address concerns from any angle people want; they already know the anti side will dismiss it whether it holds water or not, or move the goal post. For instance: even if the COH universe explicitly states how the forms look in writing and with absolute authority down to the last detail, power proliferation was written as an in-universe event of a guy messing around in his lab and whoops he literally altered the fabric of reality so new powers became available. Before that point, Blasters couldn't be psions and Stalkers couldn't project electricity but suddenly they can.

(I've said before that I think it was egregious for the Paragon devs to explain power proliferation in-universe. The takeaway from this is meant to be that the game lore can has been re/written for new options but I suppose the next response to quote this post will completely ignore that and clap back with "that only explains how existing power sets were spread around!" Or it could just circle back to saying that EATs are exempt from everything because their starting contacts have missions past level 5. Bit of a coin toss which one; maybe both.)

A Blaster can be an archer, a gunner, a dark energy wielder, an electricity wielder, an energy wielder, a fire wielder, an ice wielder, a psionic, a radiation wielder, a stone wielder, a storm wielder, a water wielder, a martial artist, a swordsman/woman, a device operator, a plant manipulator, a time manipulator, and anything else that the devs decide to make for them for players to play as.

 

A Kheldian can be... a Kheldian. Either a positive energy Kheldian Peacebringer or a negative energy former Nictus Kheldian Warshade. And regardless of whether you choose to play a Peacebringer or a Warshade, you are still playing a Kheldian. You can't choose to wield time. You can't choose to wield plants. You can't choose to wield fire or anything other than Kheldian powers. Why? Because Blasters, Brutes, Controllers, Corruptors, Defenders, Dominators, Masterminds, Scrappers, Sentinels, Stalkers, and Tankers are generic ATs that are intended to be whatever the player wants them to be. Peacebringers, Soldiers of Arachnos, Warshades, and Widows of Arachnos are not generic ATs. Unlike the 11 basic ATs, the EATs have defining stories. Unlike the 11 basic ATs, the EATs may only choose from powers that fit their established stories. Kheldians don't even get access to APPs or PPPs. They only get regular pool powers to differentiate them from each other beyond which of their 27 powers they choose to fill 24 power slots with. VEATs only get access to PPPs, because those are established as Arachnos. No APPs allowed for them. Want to differentiate your character? Grab some pool powers, because you are locked into a set concept as your AT. There is no wide latitude of character customization like the 11 basic ATs get because the EATs have specifically designed stories that they inhabit. Players don't have to play those stories if they don't want to, but the EATs are still very much designed for their specific stories. That is why the EATs have that "E" in their name and the other ATs don't.

 

Power proliferation has nothing to do with how HEATs or VEATs work. Power proliferation lets players build their generic ATs to fit whatever their character concept is. HEATs and VEATs however are built to fit into their provided story.

 

Edit again: The basic 11 ATs are not defined for where they come from, how their powers work (beyond theme and chosen origin, both player choices), or why they are there. The 11 basic ATs give players the freedom to make whatever they want. The story in the game is generic/universal enough that anything can fit in. HEATs and VEATs however are intentionally defined by the game. For almost everything.

 

Edit: Imagine someone saying they want to play Heracles when he did his 12 labors, and so you give that person Heracles to play and they look at you like you've lost your mind before telling you they don't want to play Heracles, they want to play someone else. The story isn't Insert Character and the 12 Labors to Be Ignored. It is the 12 Labors of Heracles. When you choose to make a HEAT or VEAT, you are choosing to play a HEAT or VEAT story. If you choose to ignore that story? Okay, that's your choice. You want to throw out the story because it doesn't fit what you want? Pick an AT that isn't set for their story. There are 11 of them, and at least 2 of them can be made into Kheldian-like characters without the Kheldian story line. (Edit again: And so without the Kheldian AT limitations.)

 

Edited August 9 by Rudra

[GM Impervium]

Hey all

Things keep getting heated in here, so, just letting you all know:

We're WATCHING 😲

[megaericzero]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

Edit: Imagine someone saying they want to play Heracles when he did his 12 labors, and so you give that person Heracles to play and they look at you like you've lost your mind before telling you they don't want to play Heracles, they want to play someone else. The story isn't Insert Character and the 12 Labors to Be Ignored. It is the 12 Labors of Heracles. When you choose to make a HEAT or VEAT, you are choosing to play a HEAT or VEAT story. If you choose to ignore that story? Okay, that's your choice. You want to throw out the story because it doesn't fit what you want? Pick an AT that isn't set for their story. There are 11 of them, and at least 2 of them can be made into Kheldian-like characters without the Kheldian story line. (Edit again: And so without the Kheldian AT limitations.)

You're not playing as Heracles, though; you're playing as your own character that has a space parasite that used to be inside Heracles. You can draw upon the essence of Heracles. How that manifests doesn't have to be as strict as being the 1:1 flesh-and-blood person.

 

1 hour ago, megaericzero said:

Bit of a coin toss which one; maybe both.

Hot dog, it was both; I should buy a scratcher.

[Rudra]

41 minutes ago, megaericzero said:

You're not playing as Heracles, though; you're playing as your own character that has a space parasite that used to be inside Heracles. You can draw upon the essence of Heracles. How that manifests doesn't have to be as strict as being the 1:1 flesh-and-blood person.

In my analogy, Heracles is the Kheldian, so the parasite.

 

41 minutes ago, megaericzero said:

2 hours ago, megaericzero said:

Bit of a coin toss which one; maybe both.

Hot dog, it was both; I should buy a scratcher.

Probably not. Since that is our discussion, it is easy to predict.

 

Edit: Let me try this.... The Kheldian is the thing that traveled across the galaxy and got to Primal Earth. The Kheldian has a known history, a past that sets up its powers. The current host is not the Kheldian. The current host is whatever the player wants him/her/them/it to be, and they are using the Kheldian's powers. Their non-Kheldian abilities are their pool powers. The player character is the host experiencing the Kheldian's and their shared lives on Primal Earth, and the current host, your character, has no impact on what the Kheldian experienced before merging with your character. Or what route the Kheldian took to reach Primal Earth and so what races the Kheldian encountered and bonded with to survive. What happened before their union is defined by the game. From where the Kheldian originally came from, what route the Kheldian took to reach Primal Earth, what species were encountered on that route, what those species were capable of, and what happened to the Kheldian along the way. The HEAT sets all that. How you choose to interact with that is up to the player, but does not change what the Kheldian and what it is designed to be in the game is. You can make a human or a non-human, an organic or an inorganic. Whatever you make, you are the current host of the Kheldian and rely on the Kheldian for most or all of your combat abilities. If you and your parasite friend/ally decide that you need to use one of the Kheldian's previous hosts to deal with something, you are relying on the game provided story to provide that previous race. A freeform approach would be a massive pain to draft and implement. So the devs gave players 2 previous races that the Kheldian can manage to transform your body into. Doing so allows the remembered race to use its own powers to deal with the situation. Choosing a Kheldian character is done with the expectation that the player is at least interested in the Kheldian story. They are a specific story within the greater game.

 

Edit again: I know I sound like a stuck recording, but the reason why it always comes back to the lore is because of that "epic" part of "epic archetype". That story part of the AT is why there is such pushback against things like manifestation and construct variations. Outside of HEATs and VEATs, no AT has an "epic" part to them. Players get to define those other AT characters however they want.

 

Edited August 9 by Rudra
Edited to change "them" to "those other AT characters".

[Luminara]

52 minutes ago, GM Impervium said:

We're WATCHING 😲

 

[GM_GooglyMoogly]

 

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Edited August 9 by GM_GooglyMoogly