Minimal FX Kheld Forms

[ValiantBlu]

Okay so I see this was posted here a couple months ago, but the thread is locked so I couldn't bump it.

 

I'm also assuming that wasn't the first thread like this to go south so let me be absolutely clear.

 

I am asking only for a cosmetic change to the Nova/Dwarf forms. This would not affect gameplay at all.

Please stay on topic.

 

I spend a lot of time on my costumes, I'd like to be able to see them when I'm playing a toon, also I've never really cared for the look of Nova/Dwarf forms and it's what lead me to playing Human-only Kheldians. With that said, I gave tri-form an honest to god try recently and umm... Jesus that is fun.

 

But aesthetically, I am still disliking the form.

 

A "Minimal FX" option would be ideal for these forms. All of the available powers have corresponding human variants that could be used except for taunt. Personally I'd say for Nova powers just use the human versions for the animations, for the Dwarf powers use the Dwarf animations (which are basically just super strength animations).

 

The only reason I have a desire to run human only Khelds is for aesthetics, the transformations are especially boring since all Khelds look identical once transformed. More customization is never a bad thing.

[Rudra]

To the best of my knowledge, there can't be a minimal FX version of Nova or Dwarf forms to maintain a human appearance, because those aren't just VFX. Those are complete model replacements. So basically, if you want to use Nova attacks and Dwarf attacks, and the human form already has those attacks, you are going to be limited to using human form if you want to maintain a human appearance.

[ValiantBlu]

8 minutes ago, Rudra said:

To the best of my knowledge, there can't be a minimal FX version of Nova or Dwarf forms to maintain a human appearance, because those aren't just VFX. Those are complete model replacements. So basically, if you want to use Nova attacks and Dwarf attacks, and the human form already has those attacks, you are going to be limited to using human form if you want to maintain a human appearance.

I mean

 

Granted I'm no dev, but

 

I can literally change genders between costume slots, that's a model replacement no?

Why not add, for example, costume 1 and costume 2 as options instead of "minimal fx"

 

This would actual be ideal as you could still physically transform but you'd have full customization over it

Hell you could add 2 costume slots to Khelds specifically for this purpose.

[Rudra]

10 minutes ago, ValiantBlu said:

I mean

 

Granted I'm no dev, but

 

I can literally change genders between costume slots, that's a model replacement no?

Why not add, for example, costume 1 and costume 2 as options instead of "minimal fx"

 

This would actual be ideal as you could still physically transform but you'd have full customization over it

Hell you could add 2 costume slots to Khelds specifically for this purpose.

Yes, visiting a tailor and changing your character to either of the other character model types is a model change. The difference is that changing into a Nova Form Kheldian or a Dwarf Form Kheldian is a power instituted model swap. And those powers change what model is used and what animations are used. That isn't a VFX. (Though I believe someone told me that the Dwarf Form's attacks do use the same animations as the human, so there is that.)

 

Someone way more knowledgeable on Kheldians would really need to be the one to answer, but you aren't talking about changing VFX for the Nova. You are talking about changing how the Bright Nova/Dark Nova powers work.

[ThatGuyCDude]

The changeling macros allow you to initiate a form-specific attack while appearing in the form for a fraction of a second (or sometimes not at all).  Both Nova and Dwarf attacks animate properly in human form.  As such, a Minimal FX power option might work if the model swap selected is simply the player's current model, much like how Mini Mode swaps the player's model with a scales-floored version of itself (You can tell this is happening if you try to make a costume change while it's active, or if you look at your ID).  Kheldian form customization already does this to some extent, as the color-customizable Nova (and I assume Dwarf) are different models from the standard animation (Nova has no tail).

Resistance to the idea has been that the Kheldian energy being is reshaping the body into a lifeform it has previously bonded with (IE: It's lore that the character changes shape).  I generally disagree with this argument.  It's been suggested before that a 'minimal effects' option should use the player model as a base with some forced additional effects--like shadowy tendrils from the back while in Nova or lobster claw auras around the hands while in Dwarf.  Other proposals suggested a mini-pet version of the existing models hovering behind or near the character, or some kind of spirit silhouette of them.  Personally, I like ALL those ideas and I'd like to see several implemented.... maybe even a color-customizable eye glow too.

[ValiantBlu]

41 minutes ago, ThatGuyCDude said:

Resistance to the idea has been that the Kheldian energy being is reshaping the body into a lifeform it has previously bonded with (IE: It's lore that the character changes shape).  I generally disagree with this argument. 

Going back to my reply above, taking this into consideration only gives me more reason to want to add costume slots you can transform into.

 

My understanding of the lore is that the Kheldian you bonded with has also bonded with the squid and the lobster. Odd that all Kheldians for some reason have bonded with the same host. Would be nice to see players come up with their own "former hosts"

 

Also by this logic, Kheldians should not get access to any power customization at all. If it must be lore accurate then they should all have blue/purple abilities for PBs and WSs respectively... but no one is arguing that purple and red eye beams on a PB shouldn't be allowed

 

Not sure why there's resistance to adding options that don't affect players that are free to ignore them

Edited August 7 by ValiantBlu

[General Idiot]

According to City of Data, these are the relevent effects of the Peacebringer's Dwarf form. The other three all have similar effects.

• Set Costume "Kheldian_Dwarf_Peacebringer" (self only) every 1.0s for 2s (100% chance)
• Set Mode (Suppress_PoolToggles) (self only) for 2s
• Set Mode (Disable_Walk) (self only) for 2s
• Set Mode (Peacebringer_Tanker_Mode) (self only) for 2s

The first line is the model swap, the other three are enabling and disabling flags so you can only use Dwarf powers while it's active.

In theory, removing just the first line would allow the power to still function with all its other effects but not swap your model. In practice, I have no idea if making that line conditional on what power customisation options you have selected in your current costume slot is even possible. Because that'd be what would be required, but as far as I know the costume and power systems are seperate enough that such an interaction can't happen - it's why Arachnos Soldiers are stuck with the crab pack permanently if they have Crab powers on any build, even when they're not in that build. The two systems don't talk to each other at all so it's just forced on all the time. Kheldians would have the same problem, it can't be a customisation option because it's a defined effect of the power.

 

In theory you could do it via Null the Gull instead, have the Gull give you a hidden autopower the same as he does for things like disabling the server tray. Then the form toggles can check for that autopower in their effects and either apply the model swap or not. That'd work but it's not exactly elegant, plus it means you wouldn't be able to have forms on some costumes and not on others which I'm sure someone would want to do.

[ValiantBlu]

2 hours ago, General Idiot said:

According to City of Data, these are the relevent effects of the Peacebringer's Dwarf form. The other three all have similar effects.

• Set Costume "Kheldian_Dwarf_Peacebringer" (self only) every 1.0s for 2s (100% chance)
• Set Mode (Suppress_PoolToggles) (self only) for 2s
• Set Mode (Disable_Walk) (self only) for 2s
• Set Mode (Peacebringer_Tanker_Mode) (self only) for 2s

The first line is the model swap, the other three are enabling and disabling flags so you can only use Dwarf powers while it's active.

In theory, removing just the first line would allow the power to still function with all its other effects but not swap your model. In practice, I have no idea if making that line conditional on what power customisation options you have selected in your current costume slot is even possible. Because that'd be what would be required, but as far as I know the costume and power systems are seperate enough that such an interaction can't happen - it's why Arachnos Soldiers are stuck with the crab pack permanently if they have Crab powers on any build, even when they're not in that build. The two systems don't talk to each other at all so it's just forced on all the time. Kheldians would have the same problem, it can't be a customisation option because it's a defined effect of the power.

 

In theory you could do it via Null the Gull instead, have the Gull give you a hidden autopower the same as he does for things like disabling the server tray. Then the form toggles can check for that autopower in their effects and either apply the model swap or not. That'd work but it's not exactly elegant, plus it means you wouldn't be able to have forms on some costumes and not on others which I'm sure someone would want to do.

This is helpful

 

So here's a suggestion

 

Quote

I mean

 

Granted I'm no dev, but

 

I can literally change genders between costume slots, that's a model replacement no?

Why not add, for example, costume 1 and costume 2 as options instead of "minimal fx"

 

This would actual be ideal as you could still physically transform but you'd have full customization over it

Hell you could add 2 costume slots to Khelds specifically for this purpose.

Could Null add the "Kheldian_Dwarf_Peacebringer" costume to my costume inventory?

 

and then from there I could modify it as much as I want, including the animations for the attacks (provided additional animations are made available to choose from).

 

So, as a PB/WS player who aims to be lore-accurate, you could transform into some other species that have been Kheldian hosts that you, the player, imagine up.

And for those of us that want to be "human-only" and without gimping ourselves, are also free to do so.

[Greycat]

Don't like the forms, don't take the forms, "problem" solved.

[ThatGuyCDude]

4 hours ago, General Idiot said:

According to City of Data, these are the relevent effects of the Peacebringer's Dwarf form. The other three all have similar effects.

• Set Costume "Kheldian_Dwarf_Peacebringer" (self only) every 1.0s for 2s (100% chance)
• Set Mode (Suppress_PoolToggles) (self only) for 2s
• Set Mode (Disable_Walk) (self only) for 2s
• Set Mode (Peacebringer_Tanker_Mode) (self only) for 2s

The first line is the model swap, the other three are enabling and disabling flags so you can only use Dwarf powers while it's active.

In theory, removing just the first line would allow the power to still function with all its other effects but not swap your model. In practice, I have no idea if making that line conditional on what power customisation options you have selected in your current costume slot is even possible. Because that'd be what would be required, but as far as I know the costume and power systems are seperate enough that such an interaction can't happen - it's why Arachnos Soldiers are stuck with the crab pack permanently if they have Crab powers on any build, even when they're not in that build. The two systems don't talk to each other at all so it's just forced on all the time. Kheldians would have the same problem, it can't be a customisation option because it's a defined effect of the power.

Nova has this line too:
> Set Costume "Kheldian_Nova_Peacebringer" (self only) every 3.0s for 2s (100% chance)
But it conditionally applies the regular Nova model or the recolored Nova model (no tail) based on the customization selected.  Thus, to some extent, the Set Costume function must be able to detect power customization and redirect accordingly.

The Mini Mode power is a model replacement that uses the character's existing costume.
> Set Costume "Baby_Costume_H" (self only) every 0.7s for 0.6s (100% chance) [if source>curcostume eq 'Huge']
(among other conditionals based on the current model in use)

So it might not be a matter of removing the model replacement, but rather forcing a model to be replaced with ITSELF (or a copy with extra effects, like the Prestige Umbral or Prestige Luminous effects).

[ValiantBlu]

1 hour ago, Greycat said:

Don't like the forms, don't take the forms, "problem" solved.

Yeah, no

 

I like the forms

I don't like the look of the forms

 

not taking the forms solves nothing good try at derailing though

[Rudra]

6 minutes ago, ValiantBlu said:

Yeah, no

 

I like the forms

I don't like the look of the forms

 

not taking the forms solves nothing good try at derailing though

The point was that the forms are their appearances. Like you said, the human form has the same powers. So the forms are basically just the appearances with some modifications to the character's stats. (Higher damage for Nova and higher resist for Dwarf, I think.)

 

Edit: So the argument wasn't a derailment. It was an argument against taking away the forms' appearances.

 

Edited August 7 by Rudra

[arcane]

I guess I’m okay with it on the condition that the changeling exploit doesn’t work with the minimal FX versions. You should have to look ridiculous if you’re going to rely on a cheesy glitch.

[JasperStone]

I would prefer to have options to colorize or modify forms.

This is akin to playing Hulk ...oh but wait ...I want to see Bruce Banner

Edited August 7 by JasperStone
Edited to to add modify

[megaericzero]

1 hour ago, JasperStone said:

I would prefer to have options to colorize or modify forms.

This is akin to playing Hulk ...oh but wait ...I want to see Bruce Banner

Based on some of the alternate FX suggestions in the previous recent thread on the topic, there's some other perspectives like: being able to see your human(oid) self inside the translucent body like Hisako Ichiki / Armor; having only some of the pieces of the forms appear either with attacks or while "transformed", representative of partial/temporary transformations; having the energy form appear separately, offset behind you like a Stand / guardian spirit; etc.

 

EDIT: Granted, those would presumably require more work than a "no transformation" option, especially the middle one.

Edited August 7 by megaericzero

[Luminara]

It has always anachronistic that Kheldians force specific appearances, considering that one of the selling points of Co* has always been that appearance and character/power effectiveness are completely decoupled.

[Rudra]

21 minutes ago, Luminara said:

It has always anachronistic that Kheldians force specific appearances, considering that one of the selling points of Co* has always been that appearance and character/power effectiveness are completely decoupled.

Sort of. Weapon attacks still call for weapons and shields still call for shields. And Kheldians get as much variety in their main (human) form as any other character. So they can still be any race currently, but their previous hosts were not so diverse in appearance. (Edit: And SoA Crab Spiders are still required to get that one Crab Spider backpack no matter what. They just get a color change option for it.)

 

Edited August 7 by Rudra

[JasperStone]

44 minutes ago, megaericzero said:

Based on some of the alternate FX suggestions in the previous recent thread on the topic, there's some other perspectives like: being able to see your human(oid) self inside the translucent body like Hisako Ichiki / Armor; having only some of the pieces of the forms appear either with attacks or while "transformed", representative of partial/temporary transformations; having the energy form appear separately, offset behind you like a Stand / guardian spirit; etc.

 

EDIT: Granted, those would presumably require more work than a "no transformation" option, especially the middle one.

Sure ...

Maybe.

It is not my perspective. I do not see Kheldians in the vein of Hisako Ichiki. I see that as an entirely different power set.

But...

So as long as it is an option you have to turn on to get  ... sure.

 

I would still rather see the option to edit/modify the forms

[biostem]

If you remove the forced shapechange of Nova & Dwarf, then what they essentially become is bio armor's offensive or defensive modes, only with more steps and greater restrictions.  As loathe as the devs are to take this route, maybe offer an exclusive this-or-that option, where you can take a nova toggle that buffs damage, tohit, and recovery but doesn't change your appearance or lock out other powers, while having lower buff values than the current one, for balance purposes, then do something similar with dwarf...

[Captain Fabulous]

I'm all for expanding visual options, this way people can look however they want. You want to look normal? Cool. You want to look like a space squid and lobster? Cool. You want some hybrid look? Still cool. Options are good, and having more options hurts no one.

[megaericzero]

20 minutes ago, JasperStone said:

So as long as it is an option you have to turn on to get  ... sure.

Oh, 100%. At least, if you ask me. I wouldn't dream of taking away current options; just adding more alternatives.

 

19 minutes ago, biostem said:

but doesn't change your appearance or lock out other powers

Can't speak for others but I'd be happy with the other power effects as-is - lockouts, animation times, suppression/detoggles, etc - just changing the visuals to keep the character model in some fashion.

[biostem]

4 minutes ago, megaericzero said:

Can't speak for others but I'd be happy with the other power effects as-is - lockouts, animation times, suppression/detoggles, etc - just changing the visuals to keep the character model in some fashion.

No doubt.  Now the question becomes - should there be *any* graphical indicator that you are actually in nova or dwarf forms, (even if you select a 'minimal' gfx option)?  

[megaericzero]

40 minutes ago, biostem said:

No doubt.  Now the question becomes - should there be *any* graphical indicator that you are actually in nova or dwarf forms, (even if you select a 'minimal' gfx option)?  

I'd imagine you still have the tendril aura that comes with using PB/WS powers since we're talking minimal  FX and not "No FX (except PVP)." Plus flight animations in nova, of course.

[kelika2]

We been over this many times before, this is about vanity and power and not just vanity.  You want that nipple-hardening high base damage and lust-provoking eroticism damage form bonus

 

my own personal thought on this was to increase human form damage, but reduce target caps exactly like Sentinels

 

this post is not here to taunt or antagonize you, its just how some of us treat the monthly threads like regen threads

[ValiantBlu]

5 hours ago, Rudra said:

The point was that the forms are their appearances. Like you said, the human form has the same powers. So the forms are basically just the appearances with some modifications to the character's stats. (Higher damage for Nova and higher resist for Dwarf, I think.)

 

Edit: So the argument wasn't a derailment. It was an argument against taking away the forms' appearances.

 

The forms are not appearances, at least not appearance only

As you stated, they come with modifications to stats.

 

Nova form grants a to-hit buff as well as a damage buff, on top of having access to 4 attacks, all of which slot uniquely to their human counterparts

Dwarf form grants resistance, as well as having access to 5 abilities that, again, slot uniquely to their human counterparts.

They also all have separate cooldowns. 

 

For example a WS could transform into a dwarf, pop Black Dwarf Mire, transform back to human, pop Sunless Mire, both attacks are identical in function, AoE minor damage +dmg (self)

I could also slot both Black Dwarf Mire and Sunless Mire with FotG -res, allowing me to stack 2 -res debuffs on top of my self damage buff from both Dwarf and Human form.

Then transform to Nova, now with 2 damage buffs, enemies (may or may not) have 2 -res debuffs stacked on them, and go around blasting in Nova form with my Nova form damage buff.

Please explain how I could accomplish this without taking either of the forms as abilities. Not being cute, like, please explain this so I can recreate it in game with a human-only WS.

 

The forms are not their appearances, this statement serves only to reduce them to a cosmetic change, either by ignorance or malice; and as you've already stated there are stat differences between the forms, I can only rule out ignorance.

Cosmetics are only one component of the forms, and (personally, as well as I'm sure others) the HEATs would be a lot more enjoyable if that component were removed.

 

TL;DR

More cosmetic options are literally never a bad thing.

Edited August 7 by ValiantBlu