Defense vs. Resistance

[Nightmarer]

Heya,

 

First of all, apologies if this has been asked recently, I did a search but I found nothing but, since my search-fu is not strong, I might have missed it. Basically, if memory serves, back in the day, it was accepted that 1% def was equivalent to 2% res (in fact, @Maelwys once posted all the numbers that sustained it) however, there were a few changes made to def on this server (a stealth nerf to Scorpion Shield) so my question is, is it still true that 1% defense equals 2% resistance generally speaking?

 

If so and anyone has the numbers, I'd be grateful if they could post them.

 

Thanks 

[Sanguinesun]

Defense is a get hit or dont get hit. 

Resistance is a get hit but have the damage reduced due to your resistance values.

 

You needs for either/both really depend strongly on what content you're choosing to play, what AT you're playing, and what power sets choices, etc etc etc.

 

So saying defense equals resistance isnt an accurate way to look at it, really.

 

If you are just casually playing and not doing the high end starred content for example, are not doing tanking duties, and you're on a team, then worrying on defense and resistances is not necessarily going to be something of merit to bother with. 

 

However if the above is not the case then it becomes more prudent to hit the specific AT forum subsection and present your build with incarnate choices and your specific play goals to actually then start to garner feedback related to such things in regards to your defense and resistance desires.

[Luminara]

11 minutes ago, Nightmarer said:

a stealth nerf to Scorpion Shield

 

There's been no nerf of any kind to Scorpion Shield.  The only documented change was to the power icon, in 2019, and there isn't a single post anywhere mentioning an undocumented change.

 

24 minutes ago, Nightmarer said:

is it still true that 1% defense equals 2% resistance generally speaking?

 

It never was.  Defense is an absolute, it mitigates everything an attack does.  Resistance is a variable. it mitigates damage but allows debuffs and controls, and it's dependent on other variables, such as HP, Regeneration and/or Healing, Debuff Resistance and Control Resistance or Status Protection, to be as effective as Defense.  That's why hybrid mitigation sets like Willpower use such a wide variety of effects to protect the character, rather than simply slapping together X% Defenses and 2X% Resistances.

[Scarlet Shocker]

Resistance is a portmanteau word for those who oppose Emperor Cole's nefarious rule while de fence is something you sit on if you're not sure who to side with.

[Maelwys]

1 hour ago, Nightmarer said:

 in fact, @Maelwys once posted all the numbers

 

Posting numbers certainly sounds like something I'd do.

(perhaps not *all* the numbers though... only whatever ones were left in the box after Arcanaville was done...)

 

The "1% defense equals 2% resistance" bit rings a very vague bell - I think this is from the old "flat mitigation (Regeneration) versus scaling mitigation (Defense/Resistance)" discussions in Days of Yore, long before IOs and real numbers displays...?

Back then Regeneration Scrappers were getting a bit big for their britches (due to being the only thing capable of solo tanking Hamidon indefinitely, etc) and many forum arguments could be boiled down to "Just because a /Regen can survive anything dealing less than X HP per second to them, doesn't mean they can't be two-shot. But an /INV or /SR won't". Oversimplification was very much a thing but it was often pointed out that gaining ~10% Defense or ~20% Resistance would result in them on average taking the same amount of reduced damage.

 

- - - - - - - - - -

 

Anyways, Defense vs Resistance overall mechanics hasn't changed; but there are a few recentish developments worth noting...

 

TYPED defense (Smashing/Lethal/Cold/Fire/Negative/Energy/etc, as opposed to positional defense like Melee/Ranged/AoE) has been tweaked a smidge. It used to be that a disproportionately large number of enemy attacks were flagged as Smashing or Lethal (things got rebalanced so that now it's more of an even spread... which is possibly what your comment about Scorpion Shield relates to since S/L defense is not as widely applicable as it used to be?) and Toxic Defense is now a real thing.

Incarnate (and Hard Mode) Content effectively has a higher defense requirement due to the enemies having higher ToHit than they do to in regular content. In most content your Defense will floor enemy ToHit rate at +45%. In Incarnate Content it's +58.75%.

Having additional defense can be handy because of defense debuffs. There's a well known scenario where a character gets surrounded by enemies that have attacks which inflict defence debuffs... and as soon as the first hit lands they're as good as dead due to "cascading defense failure"!

 

For Damage Resistance... nothing has changed at all AFAIK. Tankers, Brutes and Pets still have the highest Hardcap (90%), VEATs/EATs are next (85%), and everyone else is stuck with 75%.

Having additional resistance can be handy, again because of debuffs. Possessing 100% resistance to a particular damage type (regardless of what your cap is) effectively makes you immune to getting it debuffed.

 

Edited September 8 by Maelwys

[Nightmarer]

1 hour ago, Luminara said:

 

There's been no nerf of any kind to Scorpion Shield.  

 

There was when most npc attacks were converted to pure dmg instead of hybrid so S/L defense had its efectiveness reduced. Scorpion Shield was mentioned since it seems to be the one most squishies take because its nrg def, which is the most common dmg after lvl 50 however, it could be considered a stealth nerf to ice armor and rock armor too I guess.

 

 

It never was.  Defense is an absolute, it mitigates everything an attack does

 

Well, it seemed quite common knowledge back in the day but it might be that the fact that def softcap is 45% and res hard cap is 90% for some ATs made ppl think that was the case, or maybe the def adjustment in I7 where foes up to +4 (or was it +5?) had a 50% chance to hit hence, as a rule of thumb, it could be taken as 1% res = 2% def. 

 

Ah well, if it is not really the case and it never was, then thanks for clarification.

[Maelwys]

1 hour ago, Maelwys said:

The "1% defense equals 2% resistance" bit rings a very vague bell.

 

Found it

(Not my own post, but describes the thing being referred to quite well!)
 

BellaStrega - Posted 01-16-2006 03:36 PM

Quote

Quote

Quote

Also, 1% def = 2% res will be accurate up to +5 AVs,

 Under the new damage system, yes, ignoring the context of not getting hit versus getting hit.

Yes, SR takes fewer status effects than Invulnerability, but takes larger hits when they do land. This isn't news to anyone, and doesn't change the fact that damage mitigation for 1% defense is, under the new mechanic, equal to 2% resistance.

 

Essentially back in issue 7, the effectiveness of Defense suddenly "changed". It became useful against Archvillains and Mooks alike, resulting in many lengthy arguments now long since lost to forum purges; but "1% Def == 2% Res" became the generally accepted rough equivalence metric used on the forums. Although it wasn't like we didn't have fuller and better informative breakdowns even back in those days.

 

(Most of my older UK board posts are gone/inaccessible; but fast forward a few issues and we were definitely still arguing about Healing versus Bubbles...)

 

Edited September 8 by Maelwys

[Luminara]

3 minutes ago, Nightmarer said:

There was when most npc attacks were converted to pure dmg instead of hybrid so S/L defense had its efectiveness reduced.

 

It wasn't "most NPC attacks", it was a comparative few.  Some Arachnos, a few Council, a power here, a power there, not everything in the game.  The majority of NPC powers were unchanged.  Player testing during the beta proved that the net effect of the changes were negligible.  And in the two years since the changes, there's been no hue and cry over it, no uproar about typed Defense toggles like Scorpion Shield or Heightened Senses being neutered, no hullabaloo.

 

Most people didn't even need to change anything in their builds or play style.

 

31 minutes ago, Nightmarer said:

Well, it seemed quite common knowledge back in the day

 

It was also "common knowledge" that ED would "destroy the defender AT".  It was "common knowledge" that it was "impossible to play without travel powers".  It was "common knowledge" that teams needed a "healer".  It was "common knowledge" that S/L is "heavily resisted by everything".

 

"Common knowledge" tends to be about as reliable as homeopathy and parapsychology, and just as easily disproven.

[Nightmarer]

6 hours ago, Luminara said:

 

It wasn't "most NPC attacks", it was a comparative few.  Some Arachnos, a few Council, a power here, a power there, not everything in the game.  The majority of NPC powers were unchanged.  Player testing during the beta proved that the net effect of the changes were negligible.  And in the two years since the changes, there's been no hue and cry over it, no uproar about typed Defense toggles like Scorpion Shield or Heightened Senses being neutered, no hullabaloo.

 

 

I honestly haven't mentioned or said or even hinted about uproars and all that. I'd really appreciate if you didn't make it look like I said things I did not say, seriously.

 

 

It was also "common knowledge" that ED would "destroy the defender AT".  It was "common knowledge" that it was "impossible to play without travel powers".  It was "common knowledge" that teams needed a "healer".  It was "common knowledge" that S/L is "heavily resisted by everything".

 

This feels like comparing apples to oranges. Both things were common knowledge but one was constructive and treated as a "rule of thumb" and the other examples are just tantrums (except the S/L one which I honestly don't know what it means).

 

Please note that I just made a question. Might seem stupid to you but there is no need to take that approach. Were English my native language, I could have rephrased the question differently and in a more precise way but still, there's no need at all to do what you're doing.

[Snarky]

then you get into the extremes with resistance being it's own resistance debuff resistance so 100% converts to 90% on a brute or tank but the 100% has a hidden value of making that resistance not debuffable.  whereas defense can almost always be debuffed.

Edited September 9 by Snarky

[JasperStone]

8 minutes ago, Snarky said:

then you get into the extremes with resistance being it's own resistance debuff resistance so 100% converts to 90% on a brute or tank but the 100% has a hidden value of making that resistance not debuffable.  whereas defense can almost always be debuffed.

[Maelwys]

2 hours ago, Nightmarer said:

Please note that I just made a question. Might seem stupid to you but there is no need to take that approach.

Don't let it bother you too much.

There have been so many "change XYZ has ruined the game forever!" flamewar threads over the years that it can trigger PTSD for some forumites.

Whenever you read Luminara's comments, picture a cat that's just been woken up from a nice nap by a blaring fire alarm. The eyes are burning, the mouth is frothing and the hackles are permanently standing to attention; but some naïve comfort may perhaps be gleaned from the thought that all the savage disembowelling claw swipes might be at least partially directed at the cruel waking world rather than at you personally... 😉

If memory serves whilst the typed defence rebalance threads got a smidge heated it didn't quite invoke forum ragnarok.
A very quick poke at this particular historical wasps nest shows up this and this. 
Oh, and this.

[Luminara]

6 minutes ago, Maelwys said:

Whenever you read Luminara's comments, picture a cat that's just been woken up from a nice nap by a blaring fire alarm. The eyes are burning, the mouth is frothing and the hackles are permanently standing to attention

 

[Erratic1]

13 hours ago, Nightmarer said:

Well, it seemed quite common knowledge back in the day but it might be that the fact that def softcap is 45% and res hard cap is 90% for some ATs made ppl think that was the case, or maybe the def adjustment in I7 where foes up to +4 (or was it +5?) had a 50% chance to hit hence, as a rule of thumb, it could be taken as 1% res = 2% def. 

 

I am pretty sure the context, back in the day, was only looking at how defense and resistance compared in regard to incoming damage only, ignoring opponent level scaling, other effects, etc. It is a very limited view, as all the posts above indicate.