Aggravated

[Psyonico]

This thread is getting juicy.

 

Edited September 16 by Psyonico

[Gravitus]

8 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

Disagreement is fine.  Telling others that they're somehow "morally wrong" because they didn't cater to you and booted you when you couldn't agree to a simple request is the narcissistic part. 

I believe the term I used was "morally obligated" and yes, I think if they've used me to help complete most of a mission, being denied those rewards for my time sink is morally wrong. Ok so you disagree....how exactly did you connect the dots to narcissism? Reach much?  

[Excraft]

4 minutes ago, Gravitus said:

Congrats on subscribing to the ad populum fallacy. 

 

Congrats on the victim mentality syndrome.  You're taking no personal responsibility for your own actions and blaming everyone else like you're the victim.  What about your teammates who couldn't go and use Null mid-TF and had to suffer through you refusing to turn off group fly on them?  

[Maelwys]

3 hours ago, ZacKing said:

Disagreement is fine.  Telling others that they're somehow "morally wrong" because they didn't cater to you and booted you when you couldn't agree to a simple request is the narcissistic part. 

This.

I actually agree with the statement "Group Fly is very useful on certain ATs, therefore anyone who wishes to never be affected by it should visit Null the Gull to turn it off".

However I do not agree with the statement "Whilst on a TF the Leader asked me to do X. I refused to do X. The leader booted me. Therefore the leader in question is a very terrible person and anyone who disagrees with me should go whack their foot off a skirting board."

I mean, we all love a good rant and a therapeutic bitching session about Group Fly and/or Knockback and/or nerfing Regen.
However as a PUG horror story this needs 50% more Snarky.
 

Edited September 16 by Maelwys

[ZacKing]

17 hours ago, Gravitus said:

Ok so you disagree....how exactly did you connect the dots to narcissism?

 

Simple.  Your OP and subsequent follow ups are crystal clear.  Your sense of self importance supersedes everyone else, your fun is more important than everyone else on the team having fun, and everyone else was wrong to not accommodate you and everyone should cater to you because reasons.  Narcissism at its best. 

 

17 hours ago, Maelwys said:

This.

I actually agree with the statement "Group Fly is very useful on certain ATs, therefore if anyone who wishes to never be affected by it should visit Null the Gull to turn it off".

However I do not agree with the statement "Whilst on a TF the Leader asked me to do X. I refused to do X. The leader booted me. Therefore the leader in question is a very terrible person and anyone who disagrees with me should go whack their foot off an skirting board."

I mean, we all love a good rant and a therapeutic bitching session about Group Fly and/or Knockback and/or nerfing Regen.
However as a PUG horror story this needs 50% more Snarky.
 

 

^ Exactly. 

Edited September 17 by ZacKing

[Gravitus]

5 minutes ago, Maelwys said:

This.

I actually agree with the statement "Group Fly is very useful on certain ATs, therefore if anyone who wishes to never be affected by it should visit Null the Gull to turn it off".

However I do not agree with the statement "Whilst on a TF the Leader asked me to do X. I refused to do X. The leader booted me. Therefore the leader in question is a very terrible person and anyone who disagrees with me should go whack their foot off an skirting board."

I mean, we all love a good rant and a therapeutic bitching session about Group Fly and/or Knockback and/or nerfing Regen.
However as a PUG horror story this needs 50% more Snarky.
 

Except that's a skewed version....

 

1. I never summed up the leader's character as a person at all...I was upset with his action. I never defined him terrible as a person. I think the action he took was terrible though. He may or may not be delightful in other regards. 

 

2. I never said if anyone disagrees with me...I said if you have done something similar to someone.... I also mentioned he let me complete most of the mission without saying anything....I would have been totally cool with being booted from the get go....but again I would have complied from the get go........ Details and totality matter. Please don't strawman my argument. 

[PoptartsNinja]

Null the Gull can't be talked to during a TF.  If someone has forgotten, which is likely (we're all busy people, and nearly all of us are "casual players") it is literally impossible for them to disable Group Fly after a TF has started. If they don't find out you're going to be using Group Fly until 75% of the way in and it's making it difficult for them to play, asking you to turn it off is their only option.

 

Just as you seem to feel you don't owe anyone consideration; your team leader does not owe you consideration either. They can choose to boot you for any (or no) reason.

 

You can help prevent situations like this in the future by being considerate from the outset. Let your team know that you plan on using Group Fly on open maps, and that people can turn it off by visiting Null the Gull prior to the start of the TF. You can make a macro for it if you don't want to type it out every time.

[Skyhawke]

2 hours ago, Luminara said:

The argumentative and narcissistic follow-ups to the original post imply that the other side of this story is very different from what was described.

 

Y'all might want to pass on this.

 

Well, yes...however....

 

 

[Skyhawke]

16 minutes ago, Psyonico said:

This thread is getting juicy.

 

 

[ZacKing]

6 minutes ago, Gravitus said:

I think the action he took was terrible though.

 

What about your actions?  Did they ask you to stop using Group Fly?  By your own admission yes.  Did you comply?  No.  Do you not see how your own actions can be the problem here?

 

5 minutes ago, PoptartsNinja said:

Just as you seem to feel you don't owe anyone consideration; your team leader does not owe you consideration either. They can choose to boot you for any (or no) reason.

 

You can help prevent situations like this in the future by being considerate from the outset. Let your team know that you plan on using Group Fly on open maps, and that people can turn it off by visiting Null the Gull prior to the start of the TF.

 

Amen! 

[Gravitus]

14 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

 

Simple.  You're OP and subsequent follow ups are crystal clear.  Your sense of self importance supersedes everyone else, your fun is more important than everyone else on the team having fun, and everyone else was wrong to not accommodate you and everyone should cater to you because reasons.  Narcissism at its best. 

 

 

^ Exactly. 

When someone has access to a tool to make something not a problem and they neglect to use it...the ball is in that person's court for what comes after. This is very basic logic. Null has that option so people can not be affected by GF whilst still letting people use GF. So, the idea that I expect people to cater to me is utter nonsense. 

 

Also, you are ASSUMING the team was being affected...he's the only guy in the entire chat log that said anything, he just happened to have a star by his name. 

 

So, we have a guy that didn't use Null, was the only one whom asked me to turn it off....and let me waste about 45 min of my life before it was an issue. 

 

It's clear someone hurt you with GF at some point in time.... let it go homie. 

Edited September 16 by Gravitus

[Luminara]

24 minutes ago, Psyonico said:

This thread is getting juicy.

 

[Gravitus]

13 minutes ago, PoptartsNinja said:

Null the Gull can't be talked to during a TF.  If someone has forgotten, which is likely (we're all busy people, and nearly all of us are "casual players") it is literally impossible for them to disable Group Fly after a TF has started. If they don't find out you're going to be using Group Fly until 75% of the way in and it's making it difficult for them to play, asking you to turn it off is their only option.

 

Just as you seem to feel you don't owe anyone consideration; your team leader does not owe you consideration either. They can choose to boot you for any (or no) reason.

 

You can help prevent situations like this in the future by being considerate from the outset. Let your team know that you plan on using Group Fly on open maps, and that people can turn it off by visiting Null the Gull prior to the start of the TF. You can make a macro for it if you don't want to type it out every time.

That's like saying if you forget to pack your lunch, I as your co-worker am obligated to give you some of my lunch. 

 

People forget things I get it...same here...but if I forget or don't know something, I don't then transfer that burden to someone else. And telling me the solution is to remind my co-worker to pack his lunch before leaving the house is nonsense. He's a big boy....similarly if you forget to use Null, I don't mind you asking me as a courtesy, but it doesn't make me an asshole if I don't oblige you. 

 

And while it's true I can be booted for any and no reason...it's doesn't negate my ability to complain about it. 

Edited September 16 by Gravitus

[Skyhawke]

5 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

 

[arcane]

Loving this thread 10/10

[Gravitus]

Just now, arcane said:

Loving this thread 10/10

I saw it was getting slow around here decided to kick things into overdrive. 

[Maelwys]

21 minutes ago, Gravitus said:

Except that's a skewed version

...

Please don't strawman my argument. 

There was a little bit of artistic license going on, sure, but from what I can tell it's a valid summary rather than a strawman.

I realise you called this a "vent thread" and I'm not leaping on the judgement bandwagon.
However FWIW, here are some of my "greatest hits" of the thread so far:

 

"the team lead can be tyrannical"
"Can GMs do nothing to these people"
"others shouldn't be able to impose on my playstyle"
 

"I'm practical"
"I would even been gracious enough to quit"
"If someone presents a valid argument, I'll concede it."
"I've been nothing but civil."
 

"my time is very valuable"
"As far as I'm concerned, they didn't take the correct steps."
"I hope its a hard piece of wooden furniture."

Edited September 16 by Maelwys

[PeregrineFalcon]

45 minutes ago, Gravitus said:

Not agreeing with several of you doesn't make me a narcissist.

 

Yes, I am passionate about this particular opinion I have about the game. I've been nothing but civil. Some of you need to grow up. 

Agreed.

 

33 minutes ago, Gravitus said:

Congrats on subscribing to the ad populum fallacy. 

Not really.

 

Sure Ad Populum is a fallacy when you're talking about facts, like whether the Earth is flat or not, but when you're asking about social situations, which is what this is, then the opinion of the super majority is usually the correct one.

 

I understand that you're just venting about a situation that seemed aggravating and perhaps even unfair to you but, like it or not, the team leader is the absolute tyrant of a team. The original developers built the kick button for a reason and the current developers have left the kick button in for a reason. Bottom line: you were aggravating and inconveniencing the other players on the team and the leader took action that was appropriate at the time to solve the problem.

 

In the future I recommend informing people before the TF starts that you use Group Fly. That would be the civil, and grown up, thing to do.

[Uncle Shags]

The fact that you can't visit null gull while in a tf should be the end to this debate.  People may not know or forgot to visit the gull and shouldn't be punished for that. 

 

 Here's an example of why.  Titan weapon.  The T9 attack requires feet on the ground.  You can't use a key attack when flying!  I was on a 8 man team recently when I encountered this. After a couple missions, when I realized whoever was doing it wasn't going to stop, I said in chat, "Sorry, BRB.  I'm going to Pocket D to turn off group fly."  If I couldn't have done that because of a tf I would have asked to send the group fly.  The scrapper ATO crit proc was slotted in the power I couldn't use. A key, nearly core, defining ability deemed unusable by group fly.

 

Seems like a no brainer. 

 

 

Edited September 16 by Uncle Shags
autocorrect...

[Doc Spectre]

54 minutes ago, Gravitus said:

Well now that you know about it, if you forgot, would you get mad at someone for using it still? 

I would probably be annoyed and quit after the mission. If it was a task force I may ask them to switch it off and if they didn’t I would be tempted to split off on my own because I build Alts that can complete most/all of a mission solo.

[Gravitus]

Just now, PeregrineFalcon said:

Agreed.

 

Not really.

 

Sure Ad Populum is a fallacy when you're talking about facts, like whether the Earth is flat or not, but when you're asking about social situations, which is what this is, then the opinion of the super majority is usually the correct one.

 

I understand that you're just venting about a situation that seemed aggravating and perhaps even unfair to you but, like it or not, the team leader is the absolute tyrant of a team. The original developers built the kick button for a reason and the current developers have left the kick button in for a reason. Bottom line: you were aggravating and inconveniencing the other players on the team and the leader took action that was appropriate at the time to solve the problem.

 

In the future I recommend informing people before the TF starts that you use Group Fly. That would be the civil, and grown up, thing to do.

Thats not true at all...don't believe me...google ad populum on personal opinion and read the examples. Some of the most notorious examples of ad populum are pure opinion. At least here I'm attempting to lay out the logic. 

 

[arcane]

I sometimes dream of a Grav/Dark Controller built with Dimension Shift, Black Hole, Group Fly, and Team Teleport. See how quickly I can get the whole server to blacklist me, etc.

[Neiska]

3 hours ago, Gravitus said:

So I don't end up addressing the same terrible argument more than once...

 

One of the main purposes for Null's existence is so GF users can play their toon hassle free without effecting others. So, both sides can get what they want. That's the purpose of Null. That's a fact, not an opinion. Hassle free includes not asking permission to play my build. It's not the same as purposely using my powers to grief. I am playing the game the way it was intended to be played. It IS a strategically viable method to have ranged attackers out of melee range of enemies on open maps. 

 

AGAIN, if Null didn't exist. I would concede the point. 

 

So people who have an issue with GF fall into 1 of 2 camps.

 

1. You either chose not to/forgot to turn it off

 

OR

 

2. You didn't know you could turn it off

 

I have a strong suspicion those in camp 1 outnumber those in camp 2...because camp 2 people aren't generally leading TFs. Regardless, ignorance of something has never been a viable defense to affect others in a negative way. And if you made an error and forgot, I shouldn't have to be punished for someone else's forgetfulness. 

 

If a solution exists that appeases all involved, that becomes the moral choice. Ergo Null. 

 

Like I said earlier, I would even been gracious enough to quit the first mission if it was brought up. But after you've used my services to help you succeed in your mission for 75% of the mission, I feel like you are morally obligated to let me finish out unless I was actually causing us to lose. 

 

But you are imposing upon others the choice to op out of a power you choose for yourself, and an entirely optional power at that. 

 

Not an argument that holds water, to my mind. Its like playing your music really loud and then getting upset when people ask you to turn it down, saying no, and then getting offended when no one invites you to parties anymore.

[Maelwys]

24 minutes ago, Skyhawke said:

 

 

[PeregrineFalcon]

9 minutes ago, Gravitus said:

Thats not true at all...don't believe me...google ad populum on personal opinion and read the examples. Some of the most notorious examples of ad populum are pure opinion. At least here I'm attempting to lay out the logic.

I did and, as I said, it does not apply to matters of opinion or personal preference.

 

For example; I hate Broccoli. I don't care if I'm the only person out of the 8 billion people on planet Earth who doesn't like Broccoli, I'll never like Broccoli and nothing anyone says will change that. That's a matter of personal preference.

 

However, and I'm honestly the perfect person on this forum to use this example, if I say something and everyone in the room gets mad and my response is "What? I wasn't being a jerk, I just answered her question truthfully." If everyone else in the room says that I was being a jerk then I accept that I was being a jerk, even if it was unintended. Doesn't mean that I'll actually act differently but, if I refuse to act differently, then I have to accept the consequences of my actions.

.

Edited September 16 by PeregrineFalcon
Fixed my statement