Tough Brute for Tanking / Solo

[callador0630]

Hi everyone,

 

I'm a relatively casual player that's looking to make a Brute that I could eventually use for end game tanking.  Most of the time would be soloing, especially during the leveling process.  I've made a bunch of tanks, and my highest-level guy is in the mid 30's.  The damage was pretty bad, and it seemed like the fury mechanic could get me much better damage to take out bosses/elite bosses (eventually AV's when I get higher level).

 

Having played all the tanker armor types, I tend to like sets that have fewer visual displays.  I was looking for something that's a little simpler to play.  That way I can focus more on watching for special attacks during raids.  I haven't level up far enough, but I know there are extra powers to manage later on.  My armor set being more hands-free would probably help in that regard.

 

As I mentioned above, leveling the tank was kind of slow.  I normally play on x1 - x4 at +0  - +1 depending on the combo I was running.  I try to play with bosses/elite bosses (on).  When I got into the later 20's to early 30's, things just really felt like a grind.  I'm hoping the Brute can do a lot more damage to help with that.  I want the solo experience to be faster paced and fun.  

 

Is this possible with a Brute?  I'm open on the different primaries, but I do like sets that don't hold you for long animation locks.  That way I can move and make corrections if needed.  SS seems like it could have a lot of synergy with a big +hit and +damage.  I'm open to other ideas as well.  Can any of you give me some ideas for a super tough brute that's fun to solo and eventually team tank on the hard mode stuff?

[Maelwys]

It's certainly possible to tank on a Brute; as you can get survivable enough and deal decent levels of damage and they have Punchvoke (and occasionally Taunt) available.

However most of the time; Tanking for groups will be considerably better on a Tanker, because:
(i) Tanker damage scalars are pretty high on HC, so the difference in Raw Damage output isn't massive.
(ii) A Tanker will tend to hit a much larger number of enemies simultaneously given the same AoEs and Auras; due to their Radius and Target Cap boosts from Gauntlet.
(iii) A Tanker will find it far easier to reach high levels of resistance and defense compared to a Brute - requiring less compromises elsewhere in their build to hit the "caps".

High-end hardmode content builds, perhaps counterintuitively, actually tend to be skewed towards maximum damage output rather than survivability. This is because whenever everyone has strong allied buffs plus T4 Incarnate abilities on rotation there is lesser need for any inherent mitigation; and everything becomes a DPS race. And in terms of DPS, versus single-targets a Scrapper or Stalker will win out; and vs groups of foes Tanks are so far ahead that it's not even funny. Brutes are languishing somewhere in the middle - "good enough" but not really shining at anything in particular. Which is the source of much wailing and frustration in these parts.

All that said... there are a few areas where Brutes still have a few advantages - they have a much easier time at low levels since Fury ramps up your damage output drastically regardless of whatever buffs you're getting from enhancements; and they get their big damage moves earlier than Tankers do. DoTs tend to be affected by Fury (but not by Scrapper Crits) making them more attractive on a Brute; and certain powersets have big splashy AoEs (such as SS's Footstomp) which are either flagged as ignoring radius buffs or coded as Pseudopets so they're no better on a Tanker than they are on other ATs. And the additional damage granted by certain special abilities like Brimstone Armor is also affected by Fury.

The Brutes I personally still enjoy at endgame tend to be either Fire Aura (for Burn and Firey Embrace) or Stone Armor (for Brimstone Procs). And for their offensive powerset, things like Spines/Savage/Fiery Melee (DoTs), Super Strength (Footstomp is excellent; and Rage means you can ignore slotting your attacks with accuracy and focus on maximum damage procs) and Battle Axe (Axe Cyclone is bags of fun on any AT) all have a place in my stable.

[callador0630]

Thank you for the response Maelwys.  

 

Tanks have a damage cap of 250%.  Brutes are at 450%?  I know the Brute scale is lower, so how much more damage are Brutes doing than tanks if they are damage capped?  Factoring in the difference on AoE's can be hard.  For clearing some of the tougher missions solo, what's the difference between the two?

 

I'm ok if the Brute can be durable enough to do hard solo challenges and then group up here and there.  I just don't want to be excluded from tanking because the combo I picked isn't great for it.  Solo leveling is big for me, since I haven't even got a guy to level 50.  I think a smooth / easy leveling experience, the ability to solo endgame, and having a combo that's acceptable for grouping later on are of key importance.

[Without_Pause]

Define tanking. If on a team, are you planning on using Taunt? I ask because I have an actual higher level Tanker who has Taunt and in all honesty I use it in spots.  I never take in on a Brute as merely taking alpha is enough. If you want a sturdy Brute to handle +1/x4, then practically you are looking at */*.

 

If you've played all of the armors you will know which ones have fewer visual displays. Ideal sets for a Brute are essentially the best sets for a Brute outside of Stone, so SR, Shield, EA, and Invul. SR and Shield and auto fire their mezz protection. Invul has a single click. EA has two, but at +1/x4 I can't imagine needing those clicks much. My Claws/ea Brute solos on +1/x8 currently. He'll bump it up once I get the Alpha to T3. My Scrapper version is already there. I might pop it to +3 depending on the mission.

 

RE: AoE size. If you are only soloing at x4, then a Tankers bigger AoEs isn't an advantage. By no means equivalent, but I found soloing on my Shield/fire Tanker slower than say any of my Scrappers. I would need to do more testing with my Brutes, but higher damage in a smaller AoE can make it feel like your pace is better. Again, this was hardly a 1:1 case as the Tanker isn't level 50 like the others although Level 41. The higher damage for non-Tanker ATs feels notable on harder targets. Sure, you are basically unkillable, but it just feels slower. Honestly, if you want a fast paced soloing experience at that diff level, a Scrapper or Stalker would be far better picks. I recently did some MJ arc missions with my Dark/shield Scrapper and it was like done, done, done, and moving on.

 

For primaries, I'm a fan of Claws, but I favor it more on a Scrapper due to the crits covering for how Lethal damage can be resisted and Spin having a shorter recharge, or exotic damage types like Ice and Dark. Fire is better on a Tanker. Ice is cheat code for making a build durable. Ice with any of the Def based armors will be incredibly durable. Fury favors DoT as well. Dark is simply the least resisted damage type across all content, and it isn't even close. It also works wonders with SR and Shield due to their lack of heal. I will say Axe backed by a secondary which offers +Recharge and +End see EA is going to be super good. My Axe/stone Brute is certainly looking to apply for being my best overall melee character. 

[Maelwys]

46 minutes ago, callador0630 said:

Thank you for the response Maelwys.  

 

Tanks have a damage cap of 250%.  Brutes are at 450%?  I know the Brute scale is lower, so how much more damage are Brutes doing than tanks if they are damage capped?  Factoring in the difference on AoE's can be hard.  For clearing some of the tougher missions solo, what's the difference between the two?

Tanks have a damage cap of 500%. For Brutes, it's 700%.

Lets take a SuperStrength Tanker versus a SuperStrength Brute as an extremely rough example:
Both ATs will get 100% (base) + 80% (Single-stacked Rage) + 95% (Enhancements) = 275% total damage.
Tanker Melee damage scalar is 0.95, and Brute is 0.75.
So comparatively that's 0.95*2.75 = 2.6125 (Tanker) versus 0.75*2.75 = 2.0625 (Brute)
However the Brute will also get an additional +2% damage per point of Fury.
They'd only need 37+ points of Fury to draw even with the Tanker in the above example; and it's normally trivial to keep your Fury bar in the 65-80 point range.

However most Tanker AoEs get major buffs to radius and target cap - even FootStomp on a Tanker (which doesn't get radius buffs) can hit 16 targets versus 10 for a Brute.
In the above example, a Tanker's Footstomp will quickly start to pull ahead when surrounded by 12+ targets even whenever the Brute is running at extremely high levels of Fury.

However once again, this comparison is EXTREMELY rough. Tanker attacks tend to be best slotted with [4 damage procs + 2x Acc/Dam HOs] compared to a Brute's [6x Damage Procs] due to the differences in melee damage scaling. Epic/Patron power pool picks skew things a bit. Incarnates and Set Bonuses will confuse things even further.

Maybe look at some of the listed "Trapdoor" mission times in Ston's Melee AT Comparison thread for both Tankers and Brutes to get more of a feel for it?

[MoonSheep]

tanks tend to out damage brutes, the 50% larger AoE inherent helps a lot. better survivability too

 

 

[Neiska]

Do agree that with whats already been said - Tankers tend to do better these days, better survivability, more aoe, etc.

 

That said if you have your heart set on brute, my best brute is Savage/Bio. Bio is strong by itself, and savage works very well with it. First fury affects the bleed/dot damage, and its recharge boost makes bio even better. Others are good too, but that was my best Brute.

[callador0630]

2 hours ago, Without_Pause said:

Define tanking. If on a team, are you planning on using Taunt? I ask because I have an actual higher level Tanker who has Taunt and in all honesty I use it in spots.  I never take in on a Brute as merely taking alpha is enough. If you want a sturdy Brute to handle +1/x4, then practically you are looking at */*.

 

If you've played all of the armors you will know which ones have fewer visual displays. Ideal sets for a Brute are essentially the best sets for a Brute outside of Stone, so SR, Shield, EA, and Invul. SR and Shield and auto fire their mezz protection. Invul has a single click. EA has two, but at +1/x4 I can't imagine needing those clicks much. My Claws/ea Brute solos on +1/x8 currently. He'll bump it up once I get the Alpha to T3. My Scrapper version is already there. I might pop it to +3 depending on the mission.

 

RE: AoE size. If you are only soloing at x4, then a Tankers bigger AoEs isn't an advantage. By no means equivalent, but I found soloing on my Shield/fire Tanker slower than say any of my Scrappers. I would need to do more testing with my Brutes, but higher damage in a smaller AoE can make it feel like your pace is better. Again, this was hardly a 1:1 case as the Tanker isn't level 50 like the others although Level 41. The higher damage for non-Tanker ATs feels notable on harder targets. Sure, you are basically unkillable, but it just feels slower. Honestly, if you want a fast paced soloing experience at that diff level, a Scrapper or Stalker would be far better picks. I recently did some MJ arc missions with my Dark/shield Scrapper and it was like done, done, done, and moving on.

 

For primaries, I'm a fan of Claws, but I favor it more on a Scrapper due to the crits covering for how Lethal damage can be resisted and Spin having a shorter recharge, or exotic damage types like Ice and Dark. Fire is better on a Tanker. Ice is cheat code for making a build durable. Ice with any of the Def based armors will be incredibly durable. Fury favors DoT as well. Dark is simply the least resisted damage type across all content, and it isn't even close. It also works wonders with SR and Shield due to their lack of heal. I will say Axe backed by a secondary which offers +Recharge and +End see EA is going to be super good. My Axe/stone Brute is certainly looking to apply for being my best overall melee character. 

For tanking I would take taunt.  I played WoW years ago and was a raid tank.  Nowadays I'm a casual player, but I wouldn't mind team tanking every once and while.   But I want to be able to lay the pain down on AV's solo! 🙂

 

Thanks for the information.  I play on those setting right now, but eventually I'd like to be able to do x4/8.  I'm rocking the DO's and SO's right now, so depending on the combo I've gone up to x1/4-5 on an ice/ice tank I made.  Tanks start off pretty good, but then the damage starts to go down as I'm leveling up.  I know they get tough again end game, but I have to be able to make it there.

[callador0630]

1 hour ago, Neiska said:

Do agree that with whats already been said - Tankers tend to do better these days, better survivability, more aoe, etc.

 

That said if you have your heart set on brute, my best brute is Savage/Bio. Bio is strong by itself, and savage works very well with it. First fury affects the bleed/dot damage, and its recharge boost makes bio even better. Others are good too, but that was my best Brute.

I'd be ok with a tank if I could feel like it's doing damage.  They start off strong, but then slow down.  The brute felt faster, but I want to make sure I'm not handicapping myself end game inf I want to raid tank.  

[Neiska]

1 minute ago, callador0630 said:

I'd be ok with a tank if I could feel like it's doing damage.  They start off strong, but then slow down.  The brute felt faster, but I want to make sure I'm not handicapping myself end game inf I want to raid tank.  

 

a EM tank hits fairly hard for ST, and the AOE isnt terrible with the spin. My main tanker is EM/Bio, with both EMs strong ST damage and Bios damage boost it performs fairly well, particularly for a tanker.

[Hjarki]

For the purposes of tanking, I like Super Reflexes on  Brute. Unlike Scrappers, they get a taunt aura. They also get the same values for scaling damage resist as Tankers (and everyone else). So in terms of overall durability, Brutes have less Defense than Tankers - but both will have more than enough for most ordinary content.

 

The Brute ATO (providing end reduction/regen) helps with the fact that Super Reflexes has no health/endurance management.

 

For offense, I'd lean towards Energy Melee. The fact that your ultimate attack costs no endurance helps with the same endurance management issue. Energy Melee is also generally the hardest-hitting single target set, although its AE is a bit lackluster. For epic pools, Psi is normally a strong choice.

[Erratic1]

3 hours ago, Maelwys said:

Maybe look at some of the listed "Trapdoor" mission times in Ston's Melee AT Comparison thread for both Tankers and Brutes to get more of a feel for it?

 

Tankers out damage Brutes on 14 of the powersets and tie on one. So, consider Brute if you want to play Electric, Kinetic, or Psionic Melee (all of which suck), Staff Fighting (mediocre), Titan Weapons, Dual Blades, or Broadsword. And on top of any of that, the Tanker will be more survivable.

 

@callador0630 do not waste your time on a Brute unless you are considering playing armor or offense sets, or a combination of both, that cannot be found on other ATs. All the advocates of other melee ATs won and forced Brutes into a position of having nothing role-defining they bring to a team. And lest someone try to claim Tankers are walking uphill, both ways in the snow when it comes to levelling or dealing with bosses, my last couple of Tankers have far more easily upped the difficulty setting upward to make opponents pay more experience on top of having more of them to defeat and get even more experience because the Tanker is not going to die--and the damage is fine because you mostly spending your time clearing trash. Ohhhh, I may have to swing a few more times on a boss...how horrible. Those extra seconds are more than compensated by not having to waste time healing up (because while Brutes may have equal resistance caps, they do not reach it as easily).

 

There are reasons why there is far more discussion going on in the Tanker subforum and it why three threads out of four IN THE BRUTE SECTION invariably turn to playing a Tanker. In fact, I dare say, if you look across the various AT subforums you will find the subforum with the most references to some other AT will be Brutes and those references will be to Tankers.

[Without_Pause]

I haven't done Claws/sr on a Brute, but I have zero issues with End on my Scrapper. Yes, Claws is End friendly. I fully accept sets like Axe being an issue. The amount of Blues which drop easily cover any remote issue on my Scrapper. I keep Conserve Power for when I'm dealing with End drain based mobs, and I only have it single slotted for Recharge. It would be swapped for Superior Conditioning on a Brute, so it should be good to go anyway. I think the easiest way for me to make a Tanker Brute using Taunt would be to just make a build for teams where I use Taunt instead of the Aim type power and have a build for solo where I skip Taunt. Outside of that, just make a Tanker. Ice/ice would be fine for damage. Honestly, builds don't start to come together until their 30s if not late 30s, so I would keep pursuing with the Tanker as well. Case point, my Dark/sr Scrapper felt 'set' at Level 37.

 

Anyway, for armors, SR and EA help with damage due to +Recharge. Shield has Shield Charge and Against All Odds. Invul offers +ToHit. 

 

I should mention MA gets +Def in Storm Kick for Brutes and Tankers. Dragon's Tail can be made to recharge quick enough to where it by itself can be respectable AoE. 

[callador0630]

Thanks to everyone who chimed in.  I spent a little more time looking around, and I decided to roll up my Randy Macho Man tribute character.  I decided to try one of the armor sets that's not available on tankers.  He's a SS/EA Brute.  The orange glow from the armor set compliments his nice tan.  I only got him up to level 10, but he can one punch knock out these pukesters.  Oooh Yeah! 🙂 

[SeraphimKensai]

My favorite brute of all time is a SS/Rad Armor Brute. It also works great as a tank.

[Without_Pause]

1 hour ago, callador0630 said:

Thanks to everyone who chimed in.  I spent a little more time looking around, and I decided to roll up my Randy Macho Man tribute character.  I decided to try one of the armor sets that's not available on tankers.  He's a SS/EA Brute.  The orange glow from the armor set compliments his nice tan.  I only got him up to level 10, but he can one punch knock out these pukesters.  Oooh Yeah! 🙂 

The only thing of note is you'll want to go over soft cap on Def since the Rage crash gives you a -Def debuff. The good news is the +Recharge and +End EA offers. 

[callador0630]

13 hours ago, Hjarki said:

For the purposes of tanking, I like Super Reflexes on  Brute. Unlike Scrappers, they get a taunt aura. They also get the same values for scaling damage resist as Tankers (and everyone else). So in terms of overall durability, Brutes have less Defense than Tankers - but both will have more than enough for most ordinary content.

 

The Brute ATO (providing end reduction/regen) helps with the fact that Super Reflexes has no health/endurance management.

 

For offense, I'd lean towards Energy Melee. The fact that your ultimate attack costs no endurance helps with the same endurance management issue. Energy Melee is also generally the hardest-hitting single target set, although its AE is a bit lackluster. For epic pools, Psi is normally a strong choice.

I was looking at SR as well.  How close can the Brute get to capping DDR?  I know they can go over the soft cap for defense, but I was worried I could get debuffed easier than a SR tank.

[callador0630]

1 hour ago, SeraphimKensai said:

My favorite brute of all time is a SS/Rad Armor Brute. It also works great as a tank.

This was another combo I was looking at.  I wondered how close a Rad Brute could get to capping the major resists outside of cold.  I bet it hits like a freight train! 🙂

[callador0630]

1 hour ago, Without_Pause said:

The only thing of note is you'll want to go over soft cap on Def since the Rage crash gives you a -Def debuff. The good news is the +Recharge and +End EA offers. 

Yes, I'm a little worried about that.  This is where an armor like Rad would shine.  I saw some examples of Rad Tank builds where they put zero into defense.  The -20 doesn't seem to slow them down with all the other mitigation (resistance, absorb, and regen).  EM was my other consideration for pretty good damage without the crash.  I noticed the two key powers (total focus and ET) have 1.2 base accuracy already.  There's less AOE potential, but I know the Brute has more limited AOE anyways.  

[Without_Pause]

15 minutes ago, callador0630 said:

I was looking at SR as well.  How close can the Brute get to capping DDR?  I know they can go over the soft cap for defense, but I was worried I could get debuffed easier than a SR tank.

Capping DDR on a SR outside of a Sent is stupid easy.

 

I've only done Rad to level 30, but I'm not happy with it, so I need to do some research on it because the narrative for how good it is as a Res set is better than mine is performing. It is click heavy, but yes, it plays nicer with SS and helps with in the AoE for SS. 

 

FYI, you can make a build in Mids and import it to the Beta server to get a run at the build there to see how it performs. It's pretty easy to do. I can post how to do it if you are interested. 

[Erratic1]

20 minutes ago, callador0630 said:

I was looking at SR as well.  How close can the Brute get to capping DDR?  I know they can go over the soft cap for defense, but I was worried I could get debuffed easier than a SR tank.

 

Energy Aura has Energy Drain, which on top of recovering endurance boosts Defense based on the number of foes hit, with the boost lasting 45s while the base recharge is 60s.You should easily be able to boost your defense to offset rage crashes.

[callador0630]

1 hour ago, Without_Pause said:

Capping DDR on a SR outside of a Sent is stupid easy.

 

I've only done Rad to level 30, but I'm not happy with it, so I need to do some research on it because the narrative for how good it is as a Res set is better than mine is performing. It is click heavy, but yes, it plays nicer with SS and helps with in the AoE for SS. 

 

FYI, you can make a build in Mids and import it to the Beta server to get a run at the build there to see how it performs. It's pretty easy to do. I can post how to do it if you are interested. 

I would appreciate that.  I haven't used mids at all.  I'm definitely a newbie when it comes to this. 🙂

 

For SR, the only real difference would the lower amount of base hp?  I know the defense and DDR are lower too, but it still seems like a brute can cap those pretty easily.

[Without_Pause]

I have everything outside of N/T/P softcapped on my EA Brute. The ones softcapped can be Incarnate capped with the use of Incarnates with Neg. being softcapped.

 

1. See the link below and install the file where needed.

2. Create your build in Mids.

3. File -> Export -> Export Build to Beta Server.

4. Select the folder where Homecoming is installed. For me this is C:\Games\Homecoming.

5. Log into Beta.

6. Create the character with the same name as in Mids.

7. Use the /popmenu freebies command.

8. Set Level -> Level 50.

9. Train to 50.

10. /popmenu <character's name>

11. Use the first option. You now have part one of two loads of IOs.

12. Slot said IOs.

13. Repeat the command again and grab the rest of your IOs.

14. Finish slotting your character. 

 

I did an SS Brute at one time, but the build was hardly done and I didn't even save that, so this is by no means a 1:1 kind of thing, but here's my Claws/ea Brute so you have ideas for the EA side of things. I think he solos essentially on +1/x8, but he's early in getting Incarnates. I don't have a SR Brute built out yet although I have two SR Scrappers done. 

 

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[Doomguide2005]

As far as hit points go on Brute vs Scrapper it really comes down to how much effort you place in acquiring +max health.  My scrapper a Claws/SR sits at just under 2100 health and can with Rebirth be at the hp hard cap for prolonged periods of time with a passive regen over 30hp/sec

Edited September 20 by Doomguide2005

[callador0630]

4 minutes ago, Without_Pause said:

I have everything outside of N/T/P softcapped on my EA Brute. The ones softcapped can be Incarnate capped with the use of Incarnates with Neg. being softcapped.

 

1. See the link below and install the file where needed.

2. Create your build in Mids.

3. File -> Export -> Export Build to Beta Server.

4. Select the folder where Homecoming is installed. For me this is C:\Games\Homecoming.

5. Log into Beta.

6. Create the character with the same name as in Mids.

7. Use the /popmenu freebies command.

8. Set Level -> Level 50.

9. Train to 50.

10. /popmenu <character's name>

11. Use the first option. You now have part one of two loads of IOs.

12. Slot said IOs.

13. Repeat the command again and grab the rest of your IOs.

14. Finish slotting your character. 

 

I did an SS Brute at one time, but the build was hardly done and I didn't even save that, so this is by no means a 1:1 kind of thing, but here's my Claws/ea Brute so you have ideas for the EA side of things. I think he solos essentially on +1/x8, but he's early in getting Incarnates. I don't have a SR Brute built out yet although I have two SR Scrappers done. 

 

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Thank you! 🙂