Squid Rotations: A Kheldian DPS Rotation Analysis

[Koopak]

Alright so I discussed this awhile during the beginning of the year as I worked on this in the Discord. I kept meaning to finish it up and get it formatted and posted and well, life happened, interest waned, all of that. However, better late than never, here we are, your one stop shop for Kheldian Rotations.

 

No, not that that kind of rotation. Get a hold of your cephalopod and focus for a moment.
 

---

 

DPS Rotations

 

Given how many bespoke term the CoX community has for things that normally use a single term across many games, and how many people I've met who CoH is their only online game, I am going to assume at least some reader's need a basic explanation of what a DPS rotation is, and how you define a good one. If you already know, bare with me because I do have some details that you may not be familiar with specific to CoX's systems.

 

So first some terminology, what is a dps rotation? A dps rotation is a series of powers executed in a cycle, a rotation if you will, that aims to achieve a high amount of damage per second. I know, first grade stuff, stay with me. So how do you define the dps of a rotation? Well that's simple, you total up the average damage of all of the powers in the rotation and divide it by the number of seconds it takes to execute that rotation, the end result is your dps.

A simple example if you have an attack that takes 2 seconds and does 100 damage and another that takes 1 second and does 50 damage and you can execute those two attacks back to back with no gaps, then your rotation's dps is 50.

(100 + 50) / (2+1)
150/3
50

So how do you build a dps rotation in CoX then? Well you need to look at all of your various attacks DPA. DPA or Damage Per Activation Time is a pretty simple metric that you can look at not only in the descriptions of powers themselves in game but also in Mid's Reborn Hero Calculator. It is also a very simply math equation, its simple the total damage a given attack applies, divided by the time it takes to use that power. A rotation is built by attempting to use the attacks with the highest possible DPA as much as possible as this directly results in higher DPS. In our prior example, both attacks had a DPA of 50, which makes sense. Your rotation's DPA wont be so clean and simple, but the basic premise remains, more dpa means more dps.

Alright if you haven't fallen asleep with that lets get into the complications, I promise this was necessary before i let you get your testicles on the raw numbers.

ArcanaTime. Most CoX vets have at least heard of the concept. In case you haven't however, here is the basic jist. CoX like most video games does not operate on an infinitely precise timeline, it has to 'update' the state of the world in intervals, much the way frame rate is your monitor creating the illusion of a moving image by showing many static images very quickly. ArcanaTime is a measurement of the REAL time it takes to execute a power, and is always longer than the listed Activation or Cast Time of a power.

Or at least it should be. Time for the information far fewer people are generally aware of. ArcanaTime is a lie, a fabrication, a.... really handy illusion. ArcanaTime, named after the Retail Live forum user Arcanaville who first proposed it, was derived from conversations with the then live developers regarding City of Heroes' tick rate, aka the rate at which it updates the state of its virtual world. Like most video games CoX has several tickrates, some derived from others. When it comes to executing powers, the tick rate is 1/4 the tick rate of the attribute updates. The tick rate of the attribute update is 30 ticks per seconds, or 0.033333... seconds, this the tickrate for powers is 7.5 ticks per second or 0.133333... seconds. A power's ArcanaTime then is its cast time plus how ever long is left on the powers tick it ends on, plus one more powers ticks. Meaning Arcana time is always at minimum one power tick longer than the listed cast time.

Okay so wheres the lie then? Well Arcanaville made some simplifications that became standard, namely he truncated that pesky repeating 3 into 0.033, giving us a powers tickrate of 0.132 which is technically faster than the actual tick rate. Additionally this calculation was based on information given by the developers of what the tickrate is capped at, NOT examples of the live tick rate. Yes, the tick rate of the game is not an immutable law, it is heavily influenced by server load and hardware performance, meaning that even the provided 0.03333... repeating tick rate is not absolutely true and in practice it is not uncommon for the tick rate to become slower and thus longer per tick.

Now to be clear, I'm not bashing Arcanaville, their work forms the backbone of my own and anyone else who has strived to optimize their performance in this game. We all owe him a debt of gratitude for the work her put into this game over a decade and a half ago. Further, for 99% of scenarios, the standard of ArcanaTime is accurate enough as to not be a concern. In fact, to my knowledge, Changling Rotations are the only place in the game where this discrepancy has the potential to have meaningful impacts. Consider this the ramblings of a man who has seen that which cannot be unseen.

Now lets get into what this all means for you my squidy compatriot. If you aren't playing as a changling, the entire ArcanaTime concern is largely not applicable, however when we are done you may find yourself reaching for the changling guides on these forums. Normal Kheldians build their rotation the same as anyone else, you look at your best DPA attacks, preferably in Mid's with the 'use ArcanaTime' setting turned on, and attempt to sort the necessary recharge to make it gapless then poor in as much damage and procs as you can.

If you are a changeling however, this is where things get complicated. Through extensive testing I believe I have narrowed down the exact 'ArcanaTime' of a perfectly executed changling attack. It is perhaps unsurprisingly, one powers tick to start and end the attack plus the trailing powers tick that 'unlocks' your ability to take actions. Thus a changing attack takes 0.26666... repeating, seconds to execute, or 0.264 seconds using Aracanville's standard. This is what grant's changling its power, as this changes the calculation for the DPA of all of your form attacks.

 

Alright, now that that's all out of the way. Take a deep breath, its time to finally discuss the rotations themselves.

 

---

The Analysis

 

With all of the above in mind, (save that I learned of the tickrate discrepancy during testing) I worked to calculate the best possible rotation for each of the four major ways of playing both Kheldians, those being Human Only, Tri-form, Old Changling, Infinity Changling. Sorry Bi-form enthusiasts, I just didn't think of you, but I will be providing all the tools you need to do it yourself. Additionally, unless specified otherwise these numbers will be assuming zero damage or proc slotting and a given amount of global recharge. Enhancements of any kinda rarely, if ever, disrupt the accuracy of these results, where I think procs may change things, I will point it out. Generally speaking the more recharge intensive rotations will require an amount of recharge slotted directly into one or more powers, much like any other rotation. This does impact proc damage but is almost always worth it.

Our Starting point must be finding those all important DPAs, so what are they? Especially with the changling shifts. (Note the two powers that can be used in either a form or in human form cannot be animation canceled, additionally some numbers are truncated to keep from going past quadruple precision)
 

Peacebringer Powers

Power	Damage	ArcanaTime	DPA	Changling DPA	Recharge Time
Nova Glinting Eye	77.4095	1.716	45.110	N/A	4.0s
Bright Nova Blast	66.7323	1.716	38.888	252.773	4.0s
Bright Nova Bolt	40.0394	1.716	23.332	151.664	1.5s
Bright Nova Detonation	60.0591	2.64	22.749	227.496	16.0s
Bright Nova Scatter	66.065	1.716	38.499	250.246	12.0s
Dwarf Gleaming Bolt	33.3661	1.188	28.085	N/A	1.5s
White Dwarf Flare	50.0492	2.244	22.303	189.58	16.0s
White Dwarf Smite	73.4055	1.716	42.777	278.051	6.0s
White Dwarf Strike	46.7126‬‬	1.452	32.171	176.941	3.0s
Gleaming Bolt	26.6929	1.188	22.468	N/A	1.5s
Glinting Eye	44.4882	1.848	24.073	N/A	4.0s
Gleaming Blast	72.9606	1.848	39.48	N/A	8.0s
Radiant Strike	92.6467	1.32	70.186	N/A	10.0s
Photon Scatter	44.0433	2.376	18.536	N/A	12.0s
Luminous Detonation	40.0394	1.848	21.666	N/A	16.0s
Incandescent Strike	168.2766	3.432	49.031	N/A	20.0s
Solar Flare	67.1216	2.244	29.911	N/A	20.0s
Photon Seekers	273.6021‬	2.244	121.926	N/A	180.0s
Dawn Strike	177.9528	3.168	56.171	N/A	145.0s

 

 

Warshade Powers

Power	Damage	ArcanaTime	DPA	Changling DPA	Recharge Time
Nova Ebon Eye	77.4095	1.716	45.110	N/A	4.0s
Dark Nova Blast	66.7323	1.716	38.888	252.773	4.0s
Dark Nova Bolt	40.0394	1.716	23.332	151.664	1.5s
Dark Nova Detonation	60.0591	2.64	22.749	227.496	16.0s
Dark Nova Scatter	66.065	1.716	38.499	250.246	12.0s
Dwarf Shadow Bolt	33.3661	1.188	28.085	N/A	1.5s
Black Dwarf Drain	55.6102	2.112	26.33	210.644	15.0s
Black Dwarf Mire	55.6102	0.924	60.184	210.644	20.0s
Black Dwarf Smite	73.4055	1.716	42.777	278.051	6.0s
Black Dwarf Strike	46.7126‬‬	1.452	32.171	176.941	3.0s
Shadow Bolt	26.6929	1.188	22.468	N/A	1.5s
Ebon Eye	44.4882	1.848	24.073	N/A	4.0s
Gravimetric Snare	44.488	1.848	24.073	N/A	4.0s
Shadow Blast	72.9606	1.848	39.48	N/A	8.0s
Sunless Mire	47.2687	2.508	18.847	N/A	120.0s
Dark Detonation	40.0394	1.848	21.666	N/A	16.0s
Gravity Well	89.3379	2.244	39.811	N/A	20.0s
Essence Drain	47.2687	2.112	22.381	N/A	15.0s
Gravitic Emanation	17.7953	1.188	14.979	N/A	45.0s
Unchain Essence	115.6693	3.432	33.703	N/A	240.0s
Quasar	177.9528	3.168	56.171	N/A	145.0s

 

 

Common Pool Powers

Power	Damage	ArcanaTime	DPA	Changling DPA	Recharge Time
Toxic Dart	43.8122	1.32	33.191	N/A	4.0s
Corrosive Vial	62.2832	1.716	36.295	N/A	60.0s
Boxing	46.7012‬	1.32	35.379	N/A	2.5s
Kick	51.6178	1.98	26.069	N/A	3.0s
Cross Punch	78.0403	1.848	42.229	N/A	8.0s
Air Superiority	47.2687	1.716	27.545	N/A	4.0s
Project Will	51.6063	2.244	22.997	N/A	5.0s
Wall of Force	28.686‬	2.64	10.865	N/A	10.0s
Jump Kick	47.2687	1.716	27.545	N/A	2.8s
Arcane Bolt	65.8425	1.98	33.253	N/A	7.0s
Arcane Bolt(Empowered)	131.685	1.98	66.507	N/A	7.0s
Enflame	756.304	2.244	337.033	N/A	10.0s
Flurry	54.0752	3.3	16.386	N/A	3.0s

 

Okay thats a lot of tables, i got good news though, most of this information immediatly weeds itself out, for instance all but a handful of the Common Pool Powers arent even worth considering. What we normally would be looking for is the best 3-4 attacks, plus whatever value might come from buffs. With longer cooldown buffs we may omit them from the rotation and just 'weave' them into the rotation as necessary by using them to replace the weakest power in the rotation. So lets get cracking then.

Peacebringers as usual will start us off (show offs) with their Tri-form and Human form rotations.

Optimal Tri-form PB:
Radiant Strike --> Incandescent Strike --> Radiant Strike --> Nova Glinting Eye --> White Dwarf Smite
Damage: 504.385‬
Time: 9.504
Raw DPS: 53.07

 

Total Recharge for each power:

Radiant Strike: +191.38%
Incandescent Strike: +229.39%
Glinting Eye: +0%
White Dwarf Smite: +0%

This rotation is very easy to achieve with good recharge slotting and some global recharge or vice versa but will take a little comfort with making sure to shift nova before using Glinting Eye, luckily the Forms actually do appear to have a true 0 second and 0 tick activation time.

Now for Human Only

Optimal Human Only PB:
Radiant Strike --> Incandescent Strike --> Radiant Strike --> Cross Punch --> Gleaming Blast

Damage: 504.5709

Time: 9.768‬

Raw DPS: 51.655

 

Total Recharge for each power:

Radiant Strike: +191.38%
Incandescent Strike: +215.66%
Glinting Eye: +0%
White Dwarf Smite: +0%

 

This will take a little less to achieve, and surprisingly manages to get ~97% the dps of Tri-form. You wont have the versatility, but i suspect this is why a lot of people feel their Human Only PB shines. In terms of recharge requirements, it is much the same.

 

Now how do Warshades hold up?

 

Optimal Tri-form WS:
Black Dwarf Mire --> Nova Ebon Eye --> Black Dwarf Smite --> Nova Ebon Eye
Damage: 283.8347504.385‬
Time: 6.072
Raw DPS: 46.744

 

Total Recharge for each power:

Black Dwarf Mire: +288.51%
Ebon Eye: +332.91%
Black Dwarf Smite: +37.75%

 

Yikes thats a lot of recharge, getting Ebon Eye down low enough to be available right after Dwarf Mire is a tall order given the latter's insainly fast ArcanaTime. This is where we look at alternatives, alternatives like...

 

Sub-Optimal Tri-form WS:
Black Dwarf Mire --> Nova Ebon Eye --> Black Dwarf Smite --> Cross Punch
Damage: 284.4655‬
Time: 6.204‬
Raw DPS: 45.851

 

Total Recharge for each power:

Black Dwarf Mire: +278.79%
Ebon Eye: +0%
Black Dwarf Smite: +33.69%

Cross Punch: +83.66%

 

That is much more obtainable and manages 98% of the damage but I am going to share one more that is even easier and gets almost as close.

 

Sub-Sub-Optimal Tri-form WS:
Black Dwarf Mire --> Nova Ebon Eye --> Black Dwarf Smite --> Nova Ebon Eye --> Cross Punch
Damage: 361.875‬
Time: 7.92‬‬
Raw DPS: 45.691

 

Total Recharge for each power:

Black Dwarf Mire: +185.88%
Ebon Eye: +133.11%
Black Dwarf Smite: +0%

Cross Punch: +31.76%

 

Now thats easily achievable, even more so than the PB rotation, and manages 97.7% of the true optimal WS rotation's damage. This is one of those rare cases where procs could make this superior to the true optimal rotation unless you get a lot of recharge buffs from outside your build.

 

Okay enough lolly gagging on tri-form shades, what do the non squidy dark bois get?

 

Optimal Human Only WS:
Cross Punch --> Gravity Well --> Cross Punch --> Shadow Blast

Damage: 318.3793

Time: 7.788

Raw DPS: 40.88

 

Total Recharge for each power:

Cross Punch: +332.91%
Gravity Well: +260.76%
Shadow Blast: +30.38%

 

Yikes again, okay, dont worry i have a lighter version.

 

Sub-Optimal Human Only WS:
Cross Punch --> Boxing --> Gravity Well --> Boxing --> Shadow Blast --> Boxing

Damage: 380.4424

Time: 9.9

Raw DPS: 38.428

 

Total Recharge for each power:

Cross Punch: +0%

Boxing : +45.69%
Gravity Well: +161.24%
Shadow Blast: +0%

 

Yeah, yeah... we crutching on Boxing, but itll get you ~94% of the dps for a fraction of the recharge, and procs can probably bring you ahead in the end here.

 

Alright so PB takes the cake here, but WS having better ways to boost its own damage tends to be the better performer in solo or small team encounters. With a pocket Kin though, PB will win out. Now for what you are probably here for, changling rotations, then finalyl we can put all of this into context.

Optimal 'Old' Changling PB:

White Dwarf Smite --> Bright Nova Blast --> Radiant Strike -->
White Dwarf Smite --> Bright Nova Blast --> Cross Punch

 

Damage: 450.9626‬

Time: 4.224‬

Raw DPS: 106.761

 

Total Recharge for each power:
White Dwarf Smite: +278.79%

Bright Nova Blast : +152.53%
Radiant Strike: +244.36%
Cross Punch: +236.71%

 

Alright we are back on that thicc recharge requirement. but this is very much doable, I wont be including lower recharge options going forward for three reasons. One the losses start to become more significant with changling rotations. Two the optimization of these rotations is largely the point of using changling. And three, there is only one infinity changling rotation to my knowledge.

 

So whats the WS version of this?

 

Optimal 'Old' Changling WS:

Black Dwarf Smite --> Dark Nova Blast --> Shadow Blast -->
Black Dwarf Smite --> Dark Nova Blast --> Cross Punch -->
Black Dwarf Smite --> Dark Nova Blast --> Gravity Well

 

Damage: 660.7524‬

Time: 7.524‬

Raw DPS: 87.819

 

Total Recharge for each power:
Black Dwarf Smite: +184.1%

Dark Nova Blast : +89.4%
Shadow Blast: +40.95%
Cross Punch: +40.95%

Gravity Well: +278.79%

 

So much the same requirements but for a LOT less dps, this rotation lacks Dwarf Mire, which you would sub in for one of the Nova Blasts as available. You can still edge ahead of a PB at this point until the pocket kin shows up and evens the playing field.

 

Finally its time for the big lads, the 'Infinity' Changlings.

 

Optimal 'Infinity' Changling PB:

Bright Nova Bolt --> White Dwarf Smite --> Bright Nova Blast --> Bright Nova Bolt --> Bright Nova Scatter -->
White Dwarf Flare --> Bright Nova Bolt --> Bright Nova Blast --> White Dwarf Smite --> Bright Nova Bolt -->
White Dwarf Strike --> Bright Nova Detonation --> Bright Nova Blast --> Bright Nova Bolt --> White Dwarf Strike --> Wait (0.132)

 

Damage: 816.8034

Time: 4.092

Raw DPS: 199.609

 

Total Recharge for each power:

Bright Nova Bolt: +278.79%

Bright Nova Blast : +278.79%

Bright Nova Scatter: +213.48%

Bright Nova Detonation: +317.98%

White Dwarf Smite: +278.79%
White Dwarf Flare: +317.98%
White Dwarf Strike: +278.79%

 

Yeesh thats a lot of recharge, but thats a lot of damage, Warshades? What you got?

 

Optimal 'Infinity' Changling WS:

Dark Nova Bolt --> Black Dwarf Smite --> Dark Nova Blast --> Black Dwarf Drain --> Dark Nova Emenation -->
Black Dwarf Mire --> Dark Nova Bolt --> Black Dwarf Strike --> Dark Nova Blast --> Black Dwarf Smite -->

Dark Nova Bolt --> Black Dwarf Strike --> Dark Nova Detonation --> Dark Nova Blast --> Dark Nova Bolt -->

Black Dwarf Strike --> Wait (0.132)

 

Damage: 884.6478

Time: 4.356

Raw DPS: 203.087

 

Total Recharge for each power:

Dark Nova Bolt: +278.79%

Dark Nova Blast : +278.79%

Dark Nova Emenation: +193.26%

Dark Nova Detonation: +290.63%
Black Dwarf Smite: +224.68%

Black Dwarf Drain: +266.57%
Black Dwarf Mire: +388.29%
Black Dwarf Strike: +278.79%

 

So warshades appear to be the winner here, though look at that Mire recharge requirement, thats right near the recharge cap. You can losen this a little bit by stuffing another Dwarf Strike just after Drain and that will take you down to 201 dps and bring the mire requirement down to +358.72% recharge.

 

As an aside, with either of these rotations you WILL beat out the slower 'Old' Changling rotations even if you don't quite meet the ideal recharge requirements. Additionally a note on performance, not included here is how to setup the macros necessary for changling play. There are already excellent guides for that in this thread. Mechanically performing the 'infinity' rotations to their optimal is something of a challenge, requiring about 8 button presses per second. This is well within your ability if you practice at it, but it is comparable high skill players of other genres like real time strategy. However you can still accomplish significant dps gains even if you cant hit the blistering speeds to score these exact dps values.

 

---

 

The Conclusion

 

So its time to put these numbers into perspective. A long time ago some very enterprising people got together and did this exact kind of analysis for every Scrapper set, and they largely land right where they do in real world testing, so i think its safe to say this format is a reliable indicator of success. Given that, lets compair these numbers to a set near and dear to my heart, and in one more table. showing what percentage of a Katana Scrapper each of these are. Bare in mind this does not reflect Scrapper crits, but you can only realistically apply a maximum of about a ~50% increase to the scrapper from those crits and ATOs, really what will get in the way of potentially beating them is the 100% extra damage cap.

 

What Percentage of a Scrapper are you!?

Rotation	Raw DPS	Percentage of Scrapper
Katana Scrapper	69.22	100%
'Infinity' Changling PB	199.609	288.36%
'Infinity' Changling WS	203.087	293.4%
'Old' Changling PB	106.761	154.23%
'Old' Changling WS	87.819	126.87%
Tri-form PB	53.07	76.67%
Tri-form WS	46.744	67.53%
Human Only PB	51.655	74.62%
Human Only WS	40.88	59.06%

 

That is... a stark difference in performance, and we can do it again assuming damage cap and even that the scrapper is under a permenant +50% crit chance proc and has its other ATOs thus a 58% chance to crit.

 

What Percentage of a Scrapper are you when the chips are down?

Rotation	DPS	Percentage of Scrapper
Katana Scrapper	546.838	100%
'Infinity' Changling PB	798.436	146.01%
'Infinity' Changling WS	812.348	148.56%
'Old' Changling PB	427.044‬	78.1%
'Old' Changling WS	351.276	64.24%
Tri-form PB	212.28	38.82%
Tri-form WS	186.976	34.2%
Human Only PB	206.62	37.79%
Human Only WS	163.52	29.91%

 

The wild part here if the 'Infinity' Changling beating one of the premere dps ATs, regardless of the powerset. We can defonitly get into the weeds of procs here, but the most game changing procs like Achilles can actually be used by PBs just fine and more importantly dont stack with applications from your team. This means that in content where these kinds of bonkers DPS numbers are likely to occure and matter, you will likely have the -res procs covered. That only really leaves the damage procs to consider, and on average I find they tend to at best be equivelent to a level 50 damage IO so for whatever number of procs you think is appropriate you can just add 45% of the Raw DPS to the final DPS and be pretty on target. Realistically you wont even get that much value out of it for the aggressive recharge slotting necessary for the changling rotations.

Back in the first quarter for 2024 when I was working on all this I predicted that we would see a Changling easily break 1500 dps, and well, I was right as America's Angel did so in June. Today even under 4 star limitations a solo Kheldian is within spitting distance of that same 1k dps mark with America's Angel having a 943.707 dps run under the same limits as a 4 star Advanced difficulty TF. For context that beats every Scrapper under the more open traditional pylon rules.

So thats it? I solved Kheldians?

No, I'd say this is the start. Even when I started on this journey I expected I wouldn't manage to explore everything, and I didn't even manage what I had planned. So here is what I see as major avenues for you, the read to explore.
 

• Tick rate details: I actually cant be 100% sure my 2 power ticks calculation for cast arcana times is 100% accurate, i found in testing rare times where i could actually perform two powers in what appears to be a single tick. However after several days of recording and frame counting I never found to cause or how to reproduce. Additionally there is the question of what the tick rates ACTUALLY look like in various content during play. I'll bet money they slow down a lot in an MSR
• Full build simulations: The numbers above are accurate within what they consider, but they don't account for procs or even accuracy. That 5% chance to miss is always looming. I would love to see the true theoretical maximums figured out one day. I know how, I just haven't had the energy yet to do it.
• Rotation Optimizations: I am pretty confident in my rotations, but at the end of the day they are such a complex system of choices that its possible I missed something, wouldn't be a first!
• Warshade times: I have loads of PB times but it seems the spooky boys are shy, get out there and record some pylons my guys, you actually have the advantage here!

Edited Saturday at 10:13 PM by Koopak

[TurboRaptor]

I didn't even know you could bot in this game.  Wild. 

[Americas Angel]

6 hours ago, Koopak said:

 Today even under 4 star limitations a solo Kheldian is within spitting distance of that same 1k dps mark with America's Angel having a 943.707 dps run under the same limits as a 4 star Advanced difficulty TF. For context that beats every Scrapper under the more open traditional pylon rules.

 

5 hours ago, Laucianna said:

You mention mine and AAs times without context on either ❤️ AA's was done using a bunch of stuff that cheeses the pylon test which is fine on her post as she made that VERY clear, you have elected to ignore it here, and the same with my time, normal DPS for me is around 767 DPS, not above the 1k mark.

 

The 35s "Flea Pylon" time of mine didn't use any temp powers / P2W powers / aura of mot / etc. I just used Koopak's chain, above, and it resulted in 1223 DPS. So, Koopak's correct that getting over 1000DPS on a Peacebringer under 4* restrictions is possible. (With the obvious caveat that Pylon performance =/= sustained DPS performance.)

Video's below. I laid out the attack chain in order of execution on the bars in the middle-bottom of the screen, so people could see how often I failed to time them correctly 

 

 

For comparison's sake, my EM/Bio stalker can get around 33s.

 

Edited Saturday at 07:11 AM by Americas Angel

[Koopak]

1 hour ago, TurboRaptor said:

I didn't even know you could bot in this game.  Wild. 

You cant to my knowledge. What Laucianna has felt the need to point out is that in April i presented some of this information as I worked on it. I was told it was wrong or impossible. What I did to prove my math to people who accused me of being wrong was use a simple macro tool on the beta server only which actually due to quirks of how tick rates actually work performs worse than an actual human being, as demonstrated by the excellent times posted by bother America's Angel and Laucianna.

This process is actually what lead me down the rabbit hole to learning that ArcanaTime was inaccurate.

Since then, in response to the above thread I reported myself, and GMs have been over the issue. My actions were determined not to be in violation of any rule since i used testing tools to test on a test server. Personal feelings of betrayal aside, the above information is accurate within the defined limits and has been reproduced by several people since without the use of any such tools. I do not consider myself some great Kheldian player or whatever, just someone who was interested enough to find the optimal rotation and share it.

Given the GM's have addressed this concern, I ask that we move forward and discuss the topic at hand rather than dwelling in the past.

 

Edited Saturday at 07:21 AM by Koopak

[Koopak]

13 minutes ago, Americas Angel said:

 

 

The 35s "Flea Pylon" time of mine didn't use any temp powers / P2W powers / aura of mot / etc. I just used Koopak's chain, above, and it resulted in 1223 DPS. So, Koopak's correct that getting over 1000DPS on a Peacebringer under 4* restrictions is possible. (With the obvious caveat that Pylon performance =/= sustained DPS performance.)

Video's below. I laid out the attack chain in order of execution on the bars in the middle-bottom of the screen, so people could see how often I failed to time them correctly 

 

 

For comparison's sake, my EM/Bio stalker can get around 33s.

 

You kept this time from me, I'm hurt 😭 I thought we were friends AA! Seriously when you have some time id love to see this posted to the leaderboards

[victusfate]

Appreciate the details, love my triform warshade but never got a good feel for changeling. Interesting to see how far it can go in the limit. Wow!

 

 

Edited Saturday at 08:42 AM by victusfate

[ScarySai]

1: First of all, no. Changeling isn't better than an optimized scrapper. Ratch and I have had faster pylons by a decent margin. You need to keep in mind that it's damage capped changeling vs a scrapper in this context. Min/maxed Scrapper at dam cap is going to blow a changeling out of the water.

 

2: Changeling is a temporary bandaid until khelds get some proper buffs. It's removal before said buffs would be a bit catastrophic, so I would encourage using your flawed data responsibly.

 

3: The power is largely in the procs. Turns out procs, stacking gaussians and anim skipping is a potent combo. Most of the actual power data here is completely irrelevant. 

Edited Saturday at 02:55 PM by ScarySai

[Mayaedits]

tbh so long as this data is kept in mind as theoretical, then ok. But trying to push it beyond what it is should be tested more. The talk of 4star content should be actually tested in 4stars to verify the data. Same with any other data point here.

But we are looking at theory and keeping in mind that this is theory, then sure, go ham.

Edited Saturday at 01:07 PM by Mayaedits

[Americas Angel]

5 hours ago, Koopak said:

You kept this time from me, I'm hurt 😭 I thought we were friends AA! Seriously when you have some time id love to see this posted to the leaderboards

 Done! Also added the EM/Bio stalker, too.

 

Appreciate you taking the time to put this thread together. The recharge thresholds are especially helpful.

[GM Crumpet]

As Koopak says, this issue was investigated by Cipher who determined that using diagnostic tools on the test server is perfectly acceptable. Perhaps there was some unintentional confusion around the methodology, but that's what the test server is for. As long as the process using outside tools is kept to the test server then it's fine. Using macro's is allowed on all shards and servers, and there is no sign of outside app automation to try to cheat the system.

 

I get it, it's an emotive issue. Botting and cheating to get big numbers is always going to make people upset, but from what I can see real life human interaction seems to give the same or better results. Laucianna and Americas Angel (to name just a couple of the well known players) do incredibly well and leave the rest of us (or at least me) face down in the dirt. Much as I enjoy playing Kheldians I'll never achieve the skill necessary to get close to their power. I have great builds, I've spent a lot of inf making my Khelds as good as I can get them, but the human factor kicks in and I have to bow to the experts.

[Koopak]

Rather than get into another debate I will simply say this. I am here for the truth, people may claim otherwise, that is their right. If anyone would like to demonstrate the information above is incorrect in any way I will happily amend it.

With that stated, with regards to the Scrapper issue, the point was to give context. Katana is an upper middle performing Scrapper set, about what people expect. If you feel I am in error and wish to demonstrate that, I have good news. I happen to also be offering a 2 billion influence bounty for the best Division 4 (Same limitations as 4 star hardmode) Scrapper Pylon time, you can prove me wrong, get this thread amended, and make some influence all at once if you'd like. The current Division 4 Peacebringer record is 35 seconds. Here is the link:

I look forward to any and all submissions, big or small, in any category or division, its all useful.

Edited Saturday at 09:01 PM by Koopak

[Americas Angel]

Koopak's bot wasn't able to do the attack chains in the OP. So the bot has nothing to do with this thread.

 

Now, 15 attacks in 4s is doable. It's just a question of muscle memory/practice. But this doesn't really prove anything IMO.

 

What would be interesting, to me, is seeing how many of those 15 attacks have to land in order to match/exceed Scrapper DPS. The discussion thus far, from both sides, seems to assume it requires all 15, and therefore perfect timing. This might not be the case, though.

 

Knowing where the line is, precisely how many of the 15 attacks need to land, would go a long way in determining how easy to use this chain is to use, relative to scrappers.

[Koopak]

27 minutes ago, Americas Angel said:

Koopak's bot wasn't able to do the attack chains in the OP. So the bot has nothing to do with this thread.

 

Now, 15 attacks in 4s is doable. It's just a question of muscle memory/practice. But this doesn't really prove anything IMO.

 

What would be interesting, to me, is seeing how many of those 15 attacks have to land in order to match/exceed Scrapper DPS. The discussion thus far, from both sides, seems to assume it requires all 15, and therefore perfect timing. This might not be the case, though.

 

Knowing where the line is, precisely how many of the 15 attacks need to land, would go a long way in determining how easy to use this chain is to use, relative to scrappers.

Minor correction it's 4 attacks a second, a little less actually. It works out to be a bit less than 8 buttons pressed a second.

 

I should add that to the op

Edit: Ah my bad was on my phone running errands, yes, 15.1515... attacks in 4 seconds to be exact, missed the 4 seconds bit.

Edited Saturday at 08:08 PM by Koopak

[Clam Leader]

1 hour ago, Wispur said:

Cipher also suggested " they can go back and add a note that clarifies that their testing was done using a script. "
I don't see that in there yet.

 

 

No where in the original post does he even mention his own testing, its all just math that can be solved for without even loading the game.

 

In fact the only actual 'results' he brings up at all appear to be complementing other peoples performances which have proven his math better than his script could.

[Koopak]

2 hours ago, Laucianna said:

4 - My name is included in this, I have worked incredibly hard over multiple years to try and help Kheldians play at a more realistic level within the rules of the game, it is why on my guide when I have my own DPS I make sure to mention sustained DPS of over 700 as that is a realistic goal at top end (Unless you want to make a build just for pylons and use Sig summons to do crazy times)

If you would like your name and credit for your accomplishments removed from the end of the original thread all you need to do is say so, I in no way meant to embarrass you or misrepresent your contributions, and apologies if your inclusion offended you. I do however look forward to you continuing to push the AT's limits.

Edited Saturday at 08:57 PM by Koopak

[Laucianna]

23 minutes ago, Koopak said:

If you would like your name and credit for your accomplishments removed from the end of the original thread all you need to do is say so, I in no way meant to embarrass you or misrepresent your contributions, and apologies if your inclusion offended you. I do however look forward to you continuing to push the AT's limits.

I would like that very much please ❤️ Due to the other points I made I don't want my name associated with this and I don't think either of us will budge on this

[Bionic_Flea]

Pffft . . . I don't know what that big deal is.  You should see what my friend can do with a bat!

 

Spoiler

 

[Koopak]

51 minutes ago, Laucianna said:

I would like that very much please ❤️ Due to the other points I made I don't want my name associated with this and I don't think either of us will budge on this

donezo

[Jacke]

1 hour ago, Bionic_Flea said:

Pffft . . . I don't know what that big deal is.  You should see what my friend can do with a bat!

 

  Hide contents

 

 

I'm mildly interested in this topic, but all that text makes my brain hurt (going off to relax with some General Relativity and its differential equations  😺 ).

 

I was about to turn on the @Bionic_Flea Light but I see Flea has already arrived to lighten the mode and the typeface density.  😺

[Laucianna]

5 hours ago, Koopak said:

I will simply say this. I am here for the truth, people may claim otherwise, that is their right. If anyone would like to demonstrate the information above is incorrect in any way I will happily amend it.

As the saying goes, fool me once shame on me, fool me twice shame on you so I will play the fool and believe that you will happily amend the fact an infinity changeling isn't 150% as powerful as a scrapper. Here are two videos of a Scrapper player and a Kheldian player, both top of their game using builds that are not fit for general use, both not using temps, both using judgement in their attack.

Scrapper:
28 seconds, 19 attacks in total, 0.679 attacks per second, 78.807 DPS per attack

Peacebringer:
35 seconds, 81 attacks in total (Not including the Inner Light half way), 2.314 attacks per second, 15.10 DPS per attack.

So if we are judging it by how you are judging it a Peacebringer does 81.707% the DPS of a Scrapper whilst performing at 340.796% of the speed.

So there is the proof, from two videos posted on your Pylon build testing using the same style of build, limitations, and test 🙂 I do hope you stick to your word now as my worry is for Kheldians to get a big ol nerf bat by the devs removing Changeling before buffing them, something this post looks to be trying to do by claiming it does more damage then a scrapper. Also for the record I DO want Changeling to be removed but NOT BEFORE Kheldians get the serious buff they desperately need to play without it.

[Koopak]

1 hour ago, Laucianna said:

Scrapper:
28 seconds, 19 attacks in total, 0.679 attacks per second, 78.807 DPS per attack

 

Firstly, that would be a division 3 time, not a 1 or 4, i do not have a division 3 Kheldian time to compare against. So at minimum it is using an offensive amp the 35 PB is not. Secondly...



Notice the last buff icon there? Its this which is because this time is from before the tester AoE buff was changed to only effect your team. Someone was in the map with this buff active. I don't blame Ratch, this tripped up a lot of entries during one of our Pylon competitions. However they do have the buff on them and here are the effects. Here is the link to the CoD entry for that buff, note it wont let you select scrapper but since it uses melee_ones that's almost always just 1.0 which you can verify in the following link meaning  in +damage% alone hes sitting on +75% from that and another +15% from offense amp, meaning he has a +90% damage advantage before considering all the other effects.

https://cod.uberguy.net./html/power.html?power=incarnate_i20.playtest_buff.playtest_buff_aoe

https://cod.uberguy.net./html/archetype-data.html?at=scrapper

 

That said if Ratch or anyone else would like to provide a like for like I would love to see it.

Edit: Thinking through some more theres another layer of issue with this run in the form of the Epic pet. While the Epic pet would be allowed in Division 4m the Playtester AoE buff and the Offensive Amp buff would also both be on it, which would nearly double its contributions. As we have seen, the dps contributions of epic pets are quite substantial.

Edited yesterday at 03:07 AM by Koopak

[Laucianna]

2 minutes ago, Koopak said:

Firstly, that would be a division 3 time, not a 1 or 4, i do not have a division 3 Kheldian time to compare against. So at minimum it is used an offensive amp the 35 PB is not. Secondly...



Notice the last buff icon there? Its this which is because this time is from before the tester AoE buff was changed to only effect your team. Someone was in the map with this buff active. I don't blame Ratch, this tripped up a lot of entries during one of our Pylon competitions. However they do have the buff on them and here are the effects. Here is the link to the CoD entry for that buff, note it wont let you select scrapper but since it uses melee_ones that's almost always just 1.0 which you can verify in the following link meaning  in +damage% alone hes sitting on +75% from that and another +15% from offense amp, meaning he has a +90% damage advantage before considering all the other effects.

https://cod.uberguy.net./html/power.html?power=incarnate_i20.playtest_buff.playtest_buff_aoe

https://cod.uberguy.net./html/archetype-data.html?at=scrapper

 

That said if Ratch or anyone else would like to provide a like for like I would love to see it.

That is fair tbh, however AA was at damage cap for most of it too, which is higher then Ratch was through his run so that point isn't very valid, as scrappers have a higher damage cap so if they were both at damage cap for their AT's AA might get another second, Ratch would get more then a few seconds.

Just wondering are you going to be responding to the facts shown and this was just a quick comment or was this all you were going to comment on it? (This isn't an attack just want to know)

[ScarySai]

7 minutes ago, Koopak said:

35 PB is not.

 

Largely irrelevant due to geas + aforementioned gaussian stacking.

[Koopak]

11 minutes ago, Laucianna said:

Just wondering are you going to be responding to the facts shown and this was just a quick comment or was this all you were going to comment on it? (This isn't an attack just want to know)

I have no intentions of making any changes based on a TW/Bio time using multiple buffs, no.

If any Scrapper can do it, it is definitely that pairing but there are multiple other factors than just damage cap at play. Bio greatly shifts the raw dps of a set by itself, which is also not represented in my data, intentionally so.

I COULD meticulously go through the video, reverse engineer the rotations, and check to see if the extra 100% recharge was also granting a benefit or not, and try to hunt down the build and compare proc data, but I'm not about to launch a multi day, likely multi week investigation to prove your point for you and i don't that that is unreasonable.

I am HAPPY to add a note that the current best PB time is beat by the current best Scrapper time if I have a like for like comparison. Until then, I'm continuing to follow the data.

Edited yesterday at 02:25 AM by Koopak

[ScarySai]

Tempting to take the invitation, but I don't really wanna play CoH right now.

 

If anyone else wants to take the challenge, I'm around to help with the build.

Edited yesterday at 02:26 AM by ScarySai