ToT elite bosses awarding 70% more incarnate experience than they should be (newerish title)

[Ridiculous Girl]

i have not fully begun to track this, i'll refine this as i get more information.

NOTE: the final version of this report is further down, a bunch of posts are just me working out what is going on as i was trying to figure this out in real time. just FYI, if you do not want to read all of my insanity on full display. the TL;DR version is ToT EBs IPX is +70%! 🙂

 

but to start...

 

i noticed that my alpha slot unlocked suprisingly fast on one of my newest 50s while ToTing on a league in PI. maybe it is because i am not used to having new 50s that often that i did not notice before, but on my latest 50, the Angle of Dorkness, he opened the alpha slot 2 bars into 50, with patrol exp.

 

Spoiler

 

i stopped the ToT at 33% for the jugement/interface because i was running out of patrol exp. i then went and did a ITF, with no virtually patrol exp, and completed those two at vet lvl 1.5. (Sorry it was the heat of the battle and i do not have a photo with the incarnate window open.)

 

Spoiler

Spoiler

 

which makes it very strange since it took 2 bars of ToT with patrol exp to fill 33% of the 2 incarnate powers, but 1.3 bars to fill the other 66% with regular content. by the end of the ITF, he was at vet level 2.6 with lore and destiny filled in at 41%. it seems like about roughly double the amount of incarnate exp.

 

Spoiler

 

i had another alt, Goth Ma, that had been languishing for a long time at level 48 and i had brought up to level 50 using ToT and patrol exp. she had a very similar experience, got the alpha slot unlocked really fast. but she got to 66% with judgement and interface by vet level 1, but filled them in by vet level 1.3 specifically using the patrol exp from the experienced temp power and ToT in a league. (there may have been some times on the ToT without patrol exp)

 

Spoiler

 

 

Spoiler

 

these are wildly inconsistant incarnate experience gains and i cannot figure out why this is so... why should one alt unlock their incarnate slots that much earlier? at least 3 experience bars earlier, especially since they should be earning the incarnate exp at exactly the same rates. is there something dropping extra incarnate exp, out of proportion to the regular exp? is it related to the patrol exp? is it the halloween EBs that drop more exp than usual?

 

i cannot find much information on the wiki, or elsewhere, about how much incarnate exp you need for each incarnate slot, nor how much you get in general in relation to mob level type, ie. boss, LT, EB, etc. i know that alpha slot fills at double the rate since it uses both physical and psychic incarnate experience. i am assuming that judgment and interface require double the total incarnate physical and psychic experience respectively, so that makes sense that it would take 4 times as long to fill.

 

inquiring minds want to know! 😄

 

anyone have ideas?

 

PS. i have another really old level 48 alt that is almost 5 years old and is sitting on another server, i may move her over and level her up and flush out the partol exp and see what happens. 

 

old title: something odd with incarnate experience gain with ToT and/or patrol experience

newer old title: ToT elite bosses awarding 3X normal incarnate experience

Edited October 19 by Ridiculous Girl
changed title, added a final note

[Ridiculous Girl]

i am going to quote Troo here, since this is the only thing that i could find that gave me an idea of incarnate experience gain. Troo earned 1/4 psychic incarnate experience per experience point, for bosses and LTs, though less for minions. i am going to assume that this is in general the case for outside of AE too.

  

On 9/13/2022 at 12:58 AM, Troo said:

I ran the first couple groups on @Vayek's "Night at the Movies: Final Destination" #51733 on two different characters and got different results with the same +4/8 Bosses settings. Seems odd that one character is getting exactly 2/3 the exp.

 

You have defeated S L Minion
You gain 4,267 experience and 3,982 influence.
You received 633 Psychic Incarnate experience for your Lore slot.
You have defeated S L Lieutenant
You gain 12,816 experience and 20,504 influence.
You received 2,850 Psychic Incarnate experience for your Lore slot.
You have defeated S L Boss
You gain 38,448 experience and 64,081 influence.
You received 9,500 Psychic Incarnate experience for your Lore slot.
You have defeated S L Lieutenant
You gain 12,816 experience and 20,504 influence.
You received 2,850 Psychic Incarnate experience for your Lore slot.
You have defeated S L Boss
You gain 38,448 experience and 64,081 influence.
You received 9,500 Psychic Incarnate experience for your Lore slot.
You have defeated S L Boss
You gain 38,448 experience and 64,081 influence.
You received 9,500 Psychic Incarnate experience for your Lore slot.
You have defeated S L Boss
You gain 38,448 experience and 64,081 influence.
You received 9,500 Psychic Incarnate experience for your Lore slot.

 

unfortunately, my reward logs are inconsistant too... because sometimes it looks like i am getting IXP (incarnate experience) without getting regular exp, other times it looks like i am getting 1/2 IXP per regular exp, and sometimes it loooks like i am getting 1/4 IXP per regular, which would be expected.

 

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

 

i guess i will have to test with just a solo ToT and and maybe a simple team to see what i get...

[tidge]

Every time one of my characters seems like it isn't getting XP at what I would consider to be a reasonable clip, I have attributed it to being on a team with low-DPS. This can be both because of AT, low-level characters on the team, as well as rapidly leveled characters that don't have attacks or slots.

 

Anecdote about ToT "farming" in Peregrine Island follows. I want to note that I typically take all of a past year's worth of characters to PI to earn the defeat badges, and this roster of characters will be across the gamut of ATs. I'm quite active, because I want the tip mission and costumes.

 

My most recent character I took to earn the defeat badges was a Controller, with low (relative) damage but with a completely slotted attack chain. I started the ToT festivites with them at level 43. I got to 46, but then hit a wall where there was almost no XP coming in. I noticed my team was all "control" plus one low-level scrapper. I dropped, did a TF and got two more levels. The XP rate changes were not affected by patrol XP or 2XP. Patrol XP is a sneaky thing to pay attention to.

 

When that same character got to 50+, I had some time to kill so went back to the PI Hotel to finish Alpha slotting. Alpha finished quickly, but then there was another wall hit when I was moved to another team. That team leader was either AFK or not paying attention (because team leaders can send invites), and the league leader wasn't active about balancing teams either.

 

In contrast, when I was playing my Blasters, I had what I felt was a more even progression of XP and drops.

[Ukase]

I am not really clear on this, so I should just keep quiet. But, it's my thinking that an ITF will have XP gains of X, where the ToT will have higher XP gains per minute - simply because the EBs give more xp than standard EBs. So, as far as I understand, it's an apples to oranges comparison. (assuming team comp is the same)

Also, Alpha unlocks at a faster rate than Judgement/Interface. 

There's perception, and there's reality. In game, I have a really hard time separating the two, because often, perception IS reality. Seems real enough to me. 

I put 90 characters, I think, through ToT this season. Most were solo. The ones who were teamed were those characters who might benefit from more incarnate XP. I think I might have taken 2 characters under level 50, as there's never enough 50's to keep things afloat at times. 

Like many of us, I don't mind getting vet levels for the various drops and incarnate XP.  I can only speak anecdotally, that I think @tidge is on to something. Crappy team, crappy results. 
I often got my 10 prismatics faster solo than leagued, simply because of the large number of freeloaders who are unslotted, fully relying on team buffs instead of having any pride in their characters and putting their best foot forward. But I digress, sorry. 

Ultimately, while I think results are important, for me, it just sucks the fun right out to do all the analysis required. So, I just target the EBs, get my 10 prismatics and go. XP, even incarnate XP will come. For my time, I'll be doing the labyrinth runs with a murder room for dessert, and then the occasional iTrial if I'm in the right frame of mind. There was a time when I would trio box the DA arcs and while that is as efficient as I can get for reward tables, it's not really any fun. I'd rather get one reward table from a labyrinth once or twice a day and take quite some time to gear up than getting it done in a day or so being bored out of my mind. 

[Ridiculous Girl]

1 hour ago, Ukase said:

Also, Alpha unlocks at a faster rate than Judgement/Interface. 

yeah, alpha uses both types of incarnate exp, and i think judgement and interface need twice as much IXP, so they would take 4x as long.

 

1 hour ago, Ukase said:

I often got my 10 prismatics faster solo than leagued, simply because of the large number of freeloaders who are unslotted, fully relying on team buffs instead of having any pride in their characters and putting their best foot forward. But I digress, sorry. 

ha ha! 😄

 

2 hours ago, tidge said:

Every time one of my characters seems like it isn't getting XP at what I would consider to be a reasonable clip, I have attributed it to being on a team with low-DPS. This can be both because of AT, low-level characters on the team, as well as rapidly leveled characters that don't have attacks or slots.

the problem is not whether i am gaining exp fast enough or not... but rather that it seems to be giving IXP at uneven rates in two different situations.

 

maybe i did not explain clear enough... but there should be a fixed ratio, between normal experience given and the incarnate experience. like i said above, in AE at least, it is 100 XP to 25 IXP, for bosses and LTs. same for 100,000 XP gives 25,000 IXP. it does not matter if i earn that in a 10 minutes or 10 seconds. the ratio should be the same. but if one toon gets 100,000 XP and 25,000 IXP, but another 35,000 IXP, something is screwy somewhere.

 

the two possibilities that come to my mind are...

1) the ratio XP/IXP for minions is not the same as bosses, LTs, and EBs and regular content vs ToT is skewed drastically to TOT having far less minions and thereby awarding more IXP by sheer volume.

2) patrol XP is being applied, though i am not sure it should be. the HC wiki says that 2xp does not apply to IXP, but it does not say anything about patrol. don't ask me to compute it because it makes me head hurt trying to figure it out and i don't want to. i'll let smarter people do it. 🙂

 

 

 

[Ridiculous Girl]

yeah, it is strangely variable, since with no patrol exp, it was about 2.3 bubbles, while the other one was barely over 2 bubbles. i don't know what is going on here... i'll test some more tomorrow... 🙂

 

[Ridiculous Girl]

ok, i think i have figured it out...

 

i went ToTing in PI and got lvl 50 mobs by going door to door by myself. first things is that IXP (incarnate experience) is independant of experience gained in relation to patrol experience. so we can cross that off the list. the IXP gained from a minion/LT/boss/EB is the same for ToT mobs, for the same level.

 

so for a baseline for future generations... fighting at level 50...

a level 50 ToT minion will give you 500 physical/psychic IXP points, about 1/5 of the regular EXP per type

a level 50 ToT LT will give you 1500 physical/psychic IXP points, about 1/4 of the EXP per type

a level 50 ToT boss will give you 5000 physical/psychic IXP points, about 1/3 of the EXP per type

a level 50 ToT EB will give you 50,000 physical/psychic IXP points, about 1/2 of the EXP per type

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

when i attacked non-ToT mobs, at level 50, i got similar results  though a little different... 7000 IXP for level 50 bosses, but the same for level 50 LTs with 1500 IXP.

 

Spoiler

 

 

but, BUT! when i went to cimerora to hunt an EB there, i got totally different results. (i did have to use a different alt, because i found my newbie un-respecced too weak for cimerora)

 

for a level 54 boss, i got about 9000 IXP which was probably in proportion relative to the difficulty as the other non-ToT boss. but the level 54 EB only gave out 18,000 IXP, not the 50,000 IXP for the level 50 ToT EB.

 

added NOTE: oops, the normal exp awarded was with patrol exp, so it is 50% higher. but since it does not have an effect on IXP, the result are the same. 🙂

 

Spoiler

 

 

so what i think is happening here is how the IXP is being calculated differently for ToT mobs as opposed to normal mobs. normal mobs go 500, 1500, 7000, 15000(?)(i am guessing/spitballing) IXP, a fairly linear progression based on difficulty. but ToT mobs are being calculated off of their EXP(?) on a different scale, 1/5, 1/4, 1/3, 1/2... which means that the elite bosses from ToT are yielding far more incarnate experience in comparison to their regular alternatives.

 

TL;DR version... ToT elite bosses are giving 3x the incarnate experience as opposed to regular elite bosses.

Edited October 17 by Ridiculous Girl
added note

[lemming]

2 hours ago, Ridiculous Girl said:

TL;DR version... ToT elite bosses are giving 3x the incarnate experience as opposed to regular elite bosses.

Makes sense since the ToT EBs give out more XP anyway.  (iirc, it's 5x regular)

[Ridiculous Girl]

15 minutes ago, lemming said:

Makes sense since the ToT EBs give out more XP anyway.

it's about the same XP as the level 54 cyclops elite boss that i defeated... (accounting for patrol exp) and according to the wiki since it was +4 to my 50, that scales 1.8X the base at even level. even so, it still does not add up.

 

GAH! that means i have to test something else out! 😄

 

 

Edited October 17 by Ridiculous Girl
added text

[Ridiculous Girl]

1 hour ago, lemming said:

(iirc, it's 5x regular)

it's late, but if my mental math is right, it is awarding 2x the EXP, but 5x the IXP... i'll fiddle around tomorrow and see how it adds up. 😎

[Ridiculous Girl]

1 hour ago, lemming said:

(iirc, it's 5x regular)

 

actually looking at it now, adjusted for the patrol EXP, the level 50 ToT EB is giving the exact same award as the level 54 EB cyclops, except the IXP is triple.

 

Spoiler

 

 

[lemming]

I'm intrigued and if I hadn't been up since 4am, i might go test it out too.   Maybe over the weekend.

[Crysis]

It’s not a popular perspective, but often I’ve found myself on a 50+ waiting to find a spot on a ToT league and I’ll just solo until/unless the league leader finally comes back from AFKing and invites me.  I’ll notice a HUGE difference in my solo XP per min when just soloing next to a league vs actually being part of a league.  Makes me realize why there’s that multi-boxing MM floating around the Murder Apartments in PI.  I think you can earn better XP/min solo near a league ToT than actually -part- of that league.

[Ridiculous Girl]

ok, i think i can wrap this up now... 😅

 

LIES! or if it was true, it's not anymore. 😉

 

Spoiler

 

finally, i got a baseline comparison for a regular level 50 elite boss... in comparison to the ToT level 50 elite boss is giving slightly less than 3x times normal EXP and INF (about 2.914x 🤪), while giving an even 5x the IXP. (actually as i noted above... the lvl 50 ToT EB is rewarding the same EXP and INF as a lvl 54 normal EB, but with a higher XP to IXP scale than normal)

 

Spoiler

 

 

so what i think happened is that they initially did bump up the EXP, IXP, and the INF up by 5x when initially testing, but downgraded the EXP and INF to better meet the challenge, but forgot to adjust the IXP, and left it elevated. it should have been adjusted down to 30,000 IXP baseline for a level 50 ToT EB. players are gaining 70% more IXP per ToT EB kill than they should normally be.

 

...

 

DAMMIT! it is not as scandalous as i had hoped!!!

 

ToT EBs are awarding 70% more IXP than they should be!!!

is not the exciting headline i had hoped it would be, that headline might be buried as a second page story in the Paragon Financial Times, or something. i thought i was onto something serious! i might leave the misleading title on this report since they are still advertising 5x the rewards for the ToT EB kills, it's ensationalism! 😄

 

NOTE: i'll add a FYI, posting IXP drops for future reference, just because i could not find the info elsewhere.
 

Edited October 19 by Ridiculous Girl
added something something :)

[Ridiculous Girl]

for future reference, for anyone searching for what Incarnate Experience per mob difficulty...

 

for regular enemies, using level 50 mobs as a baseline;

a level 50 minion will give you 500 physical/psychic IXP points

a level 50 LT will give you 1500 physical/psychic IXP points

a level 50 boss will give you 6500 physical/psychic IXP points

a level 50 elite boss will give you 10000 physical/psychic IXP points

a level 50 AV/hero will give you 25000 physical/psychic IXP points

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

 

for ToT mobs, i'll quote myself from above here...

On 10/17/2024 at 5:47 PM, Ridiculous Girl said:

so for a baseline for future generations... fighting at level 50...

a level 50 ToT minion will give you 500 physical/psychic IXP points, about 1/5 of the regular EXP per type

a level 50 ToT LT will give you 1500 physical/psychic IXP points, about 1/4 of the EXP per type

a level 50 ToT boss will give you 5000 physical/psychic IXP points, about 1/3 of the EXP per type

a level 50 ToT EB will give you 50,000 physical/psychic IXP points, about 1/2 of the EXP per type

Edited October 19 by Ridiculous Girl
added AV info