MM Bots/Traps/Mace

[benai]

Hi,

 

I am currently jumping from MM to MM and trying different builds (Druid (Beast/Nature) wasnt to my liking).

 

Mercs/Dark, Demon/Fire, Bots/Traps.

 

The current go to is Bots/Traps. Its the old standard less sturdy then Bots/FF but still nice.

 

Would be nice if someone could look at my current build in work if there are any major flaws and which decision would be better (3 free slots)

 

Bots Traps V0.1.mbd

 

I was thinking of swapping Seeker Drones and/or Poison Trap for Photon Grenade and put in there Ragnarok. And if i should drop Hasten entirely. Doesnt seem that much worthy with Bots/Traps. Maybe I should get Web Envelope to make sure that the enemies stay in the Napalm Bomb of the Assault Bot.

 

Edited October 29, 2024 by benai

[Force Redux]

I would prefer poison trap over photon grenade.... Even proc'd

[Meknomancer]

10 hours ago, benai said:

Hi,

 

I am currently jumping from MM to MM and trying different builds (Druid (Beast/Nature) wasnt to my liking).

 

Mercs/Dark, Demon/Fire, Bots/Traps.

 

The current go to is Bots/Traps. Its the old standard less sturdy then Bots/FF but still nice.

 

Would be nice if someone could look at my current build in work if there are any major flaws and which decision would be better (3 free slots)

 

Bots Traps V0.1.mbd 41.13 kB · 2 downloads

 

I was thinking of swapping Seeker Drones and/or Poison Trap for Photon Grenade and put in there Ragnarok. And if i should drop Hasten entirely. Doesnt seem that much worthy with Bots/Traps. Maybe I should get Web Envelope to make sure that the enemies stay in the Napalm Bomb of the Assault Bot.

 

 

Hasten gets you multiple acid mortars, that alone is a reason to keep it. I skip triage beacon now that we have maintenance drone. More slots in poison trap, its one of the best debuffs in the game. I do like web envelope, i hate fliers if i'm running a toon with flight/group fly.

 

You left kick on, have you ever in your entire play history used it? If so, when? i want to see pictures.

[benai]

4 hours ago, Meknomancer said:

 

Hasten gets you multiple acid mortars, that alone is a reason to keep it. I skip triage beacon now that we have maintenance drone. More slots in poison trap, its one of the best debuffs in the game. I do like web envelope, i hate fliers if i'm running a toon with flight/group fly.

 

You left kick on, have you ever in your entire play history used it? If so, when? i want to see pictures.

 

I thought that Caltrops or Acid Mortar would be the debuffer number one. And that Poison Trap would be just a nice gimmik.

Yeah, my bad with the kick.

 

**Level 1: Caltrops**
- A: Annihilation: Chance for Res Debuff
- 7: Overwhelming Force: Damage/Chance for Knockdown/Knockback to Knockdown
- 9: Bombardment: Chance for Fire Damage
- 43: Ice Mistral's Torment: Chance for Cold Damage
- 45: Superior Frozen Blast: Recharge/Chance for Immobilize
- 46: Pacing of the Turtle: Chance of -Recharge

 

**Level 10: Acid Mortar**
- A: Achilles' Heel: Chance for Res Debuff
- 19: Touch of Lady Grey: Chance for Negative Damage
- 21: Shield Breaker: Chance for Lethal Damage
- 21: Positron's Blast: Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
- 23: Positron's Blast: Damage/Range
- 23: Positron's Blast: Chance of Damage(Energy)

 

**Level 44: Poison Trap**
- A: Basilisk's Gaze: Chance for Recharge Slow
- 45: Ghost Widow's Embrace: Chance of Damage(Psionic)
- 45: Lockdown: Chance for +2 Mag Hold
- 46: Unbreakable Constraint: Chance for Smashing Damage

 

 

I am currently not so sure if i want to drop Triage Beacon. 

But it would open slots either for an attack or to put these slots into maybe Maintenance Drone.

 

Edited October 29, 2024 by benai

[TheSpiritFox]

You dont need triage beacon, caltrops procs probably better elsewhere, there is literally zero reason to take fighting pool on bots/traps you should be close to the softcap with proper slotting just from FFgen, maneuvers, hover/CJ, and pbot bubble. Dont take maneuvers that early, take poison trap as soon as its available and 5 slot it with gravitational anchor, Consider replacing fighting pool and triage beacon with aid pool for heal other and field medic (you will get way more mileage out of healbot+aid pool) and take photon grenade. 

You need to understand,..,poison trap is -1000% Regen. Base. Just like no enhancements involved. With two bots attacks you can drop AVs and Giant Monsters down to 0% regen. And solo them. 

Seekers to take alpha, poison trap to hold mobs, acid mortar, caltrops, and the bots should have opened up in defensive mode by then. You can wreck some pretty high level content if you build it right

 

[Meknomancer]

2 hours ago, benai said:

 

I thought that Caltrops or Acid Mortar would be the debuffer number one. And that Poison Trap would be just a nice gimmik.

Yeah, my bad with the kick.

 

**Level 1: Caltrops**
- A: Annihilation: Chance for Res Debuff
- 7: Overwhelming Force: Damage/Chance for Knockdown/Knockback to Knockdown
- 9: Bombardment: Chance for Fire Damage
- 43: Ice Mistral's Torment: Chance for Cold Damage
- 45: Superior Frozen Blast: Recharge/Chance for Immobilize
- 46: Pacing of the Turtle: Chance of -Recharge

 

**Level 10: Acid Mortar**
- A: Achilles' Heel: Chance for Res Debuff
- 19: Touch of Lady Grey: Chance for Negative Damage
- 21: Shield Breaker: Chance for Lethal Damage
- 21: Positron's Blast: Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
- 23: Positron's Blast: Damage/Range
- 23: Positron's Blast: Chance of Damage(Energy)

 

**Level 44: Poison Trap**
- A: Basilisk's Gaze: Chance for Recharge Slow
- 45: Ghost Widow's Embrace: Chance of Damage(Psionic)
- 45: Lockdown: Chance for +2 Mag Hold
- 46: Unbreakable Constraint: Chance for Smashing Damage

 

 

I am currently not so sure if i want to drop Triage Beacon. 

But it would open slots either for an attack or to put these slots into maybe Maintenance Drone.

 

 

What @TheSpiritFoxsaid, poison trap is the no. 1 - regen in the game and turns av/gm's into wet paper blankets/punching bags/free merits and badges.

 

Except the part about slotting it with grav anchor. Eh? Maybe they meant Unbreakable set for the recharge. I like to frankenslot with bits and bobs and procs. Mostly procs, you build in so much recharge into bots/traps you may as well take advantage of it.

Edited October 29, 2024 by Meknomancer

[benai]

K. I have now removed Triage Beacon and reworked the whole build a bit.

Bots Traps V0.3.mbd

But I am still not happy. Currently I have 3 open slots and 11 free slots to place.

 

 

I like the fighting pool. But fewer toggles is also not bad.

 

 

2 hours ago, TheSpiritFox said:

 take poison trap as soon as its available and 5 slot it with gravitational anchor

 

Mids doesnt seem to have Gravitational Anchor at least not mine.

Its an Immobilize set Poison Trap has only Holds.

 

2 hours ago, TheSpiritFox said:

Consider replacing fighting pool and triage beacon with aid pool for heal other and field medic (you will get way more mileage out of healbot+aid pool) and take photon grenade. 

Never seen Medicine as viable option and with 3 slots left its either Medicine (which would take 3 slots to get Field Medic) or Photon Grenade and 2 others.

Edited October 29, 2024 by benai

[benai]

34 minutes ago, Meknomancer said:

Except the part about slotting it with grav anchor. Eh? Maybe they meant Unbreakable set for the recharge. I like to frankenslot with bits and bobs and procs. Mostly procs, you build in so much recharge into bots/traps you may as well take advantage of it.

 

Whats that supposed to mean?

[TheSpiritFox]

6 hours ago, Meknomancer said:

 

What @TheSpiritFoxsaid, poison trap is the no. 1 - regen in the game and turns av/gm's into wet paper blankets/punching bags/free merits and badges.

 

Except the part about slotting it with grav anchor. Eh? Maybe they meant Unbreakable set for the recharge. I like to frankenslot with bits and bobs and procs. Mostly procs, you build in so much recharge into bots/traps you may as well take advantage of it.

Yeah that the epic hold set for the recharge. My brain isnt great at names

[TheSpiritFox]

6 hours ago, benai said:

K. I have now removed Triage Beacon and reworked the whole build a bit.

Bots Traps V0.3.mbd 38.56 kB · 1 download

But I am still not happy. Currently I have 3 open slots and 11 free slots to place.

 

 

I like the fighting pool. But fewer toggles is also not bad.

 

 

 

Mids doesnt seem to have Gravitational Anchor at least not mine.

Its an Immobilize set Poison Trap has only Holds.

 

Never seen Medicine as viable option and with 3 slots left its either Medicine (which would take 3 slots to get Field Medic) or Photon Grenade and 2 others.

So my build basically swap assault and photon grenade, then go aid pool for your 3 slots. 5 slot aid other, the rest just need the one slot, put some slots into photon grenade. I used pulse rifle blast and photon grenade to get 2 purple set 10% recharge bonuses in, my primary gave me my max of 5 with frankenslotting the other.

 

This gives you an idea. 

[StrikerFox]

Here's my build I'm going to eventually respec into. The only reason I haven't is because the Protector Bot's endurance is miserable. They'll be sucking on fumes for a lot of fights. With the Protector Bot's shields and FFG active, the MM will be at softcap to all damage types and positions. Also at +75% res to S/L/F/C/E/N. All the pets should be at softcap to everthing as well. It's probably overkill but wanted to make an MM as tanky as possible.

Used so many slots chasing miniscule amounts of S/L res, I'm considering building for less. Let Reactive Defense scaling res do it's thing. This way I could round the build out better. Or maybe patch it with incarnates. Ageless would probably go a long way. Considering some other changes but haven't put much thought into it and haven't had time to play.

 

 

Mastermind - Robotics - Traps 4F.mbd

 

 

 

 

[Meknomancer]

14 hours ago, benai said:

 

Whats that supposed to mean?

 

Frankenslot? Is that what your asking? It means to use different pieces from different sets. Like slotting acid mortar with a shield breaker acc/end/rech, an analyse weakness acc/end/rech, an achilles chance for res and 3 pieces of ranged aoe chance for damage pieces to get some accuracy/endurance/recharge into the power with a few procs. You don't get any set bonuses but you get a very effective power.  

[Maelwys]

23 hours ago, Meknomancer said:

I skip triage beacon

  

19 hours ago, benai said:

I am currently not so sure if i want to drop Triage Beacon. 

  

18 hours ago, TheSpiritFox said:

You dont need triage beacon

  

16 hours ago, benai said:

K. I have now removed Triage Beacon

...

Never seen Medicine as viable option

Whilst my Bot/Traps is firmly on the shelf these days (/Time + Clarion just has a much higher performance ceiling); it's worth pointing out that Triage Beacon and a few similar powers (e.g. Spirit Tree, Spirit Ward, etc) have an interesting interaction with the Panacea Proc.



It will reliably grant HP and Endurance to any allies within its range; including Henchmen, placeable pets and NPCs.
And having multiple copies of it out will multiply the activation rate.

Medicine carried my Bot/Traps on Live for many, many issues.
However these days you can definitely get by without it... and personally, I'd just take Triage Beacon + Maintenance Drone + Talons Radial Lore and call it a day.
 

Edited October 30, 2024 by Maelwys

[benai]

9 hours ago, Maelwys said:

it's worth pointing out that Triage Beacon and a few similar powers (e.g. Spirit Tree, Spirit Ward, etc) have an interesting interaction with the Panacea Proc.

It will reliably grant HP and Endurance to any allies within its range; including Henchmen, placeable pets and NPCs.
And having multiple copies of it out will multiply the activation rate.

Medicine carried my Bot/Traps on Live for many, many issues.
However these days you can definitely get by without it... and personally, I'd just take Triage Beacon + Maintenance Drone + Talons Radial Lore and call it a day.

 

 

My basic idea was to put in Triage Beacon the Preventive Medicine Proc instead of putting it into Upgrade Robot.

But using Panacea Proc in Triage Beacon sounds quite nice.

 

How many slots in Triage Beacon should i put in and with which Set?

[TheSpiritFox]

11 hours ago, Maelwys said:

  

  

  

Whilst my Bot/Traps is firmly on the shelf these days (/Time + Clarion just has a much higher performance ceiling); it's worth pointing out that Triage Beacon and a few similar powers (e.g. Spirit Tree, Spirit Ward, etc) have an interesting interaction with the Panacea Proc.



It will reliably grant HP and Endurance to any allies within its range; including Henchmen, placeable pets and NPCs.
And having multiple copies of it out will multiply the activation rate.

Medicine carried my Bot/Traps on Live for many, many issues.
However these days you can definitely get by without it... and personally, I'd just take Triage Beacon + Maintenance Drone + Talons Radial Lore and call it a day.
 

I would love an explanation of how Time w/ clarion outperforms traps with Bots because absent a generic IO build without perma hasten I dont see how that's remotely possible on standard enemy groups much less hard targets like AVs/GMs. 

[Maelwys]

10 hours ago, TheSpiritFox said:

I would love an explanation of how Time w/ clarion outperforms traps with Bots because absent a generic IO build without perma hasten I dont see how that's remotely possible on standard enemy groups much less hard targets like AVs/GMs. 

For /Traps?
+ Force Field Generator grants the set its Defense and Mez Protection; but it drastically limits the speed at which a /Traps can move; and the little bugger has low HP and no inherent damage resistance so it tends to get blown up and need resummoned fairly frequently even whenever it's not getting stuck on random scenery.
+ Acid Mortar inflicts a -20% AoE damage resistance and defense debuff; stackable with other copies of. So -40% is common and -60% is possible versus multiple foes. However if you're fighting a single pack of regular foes for long enough to get 2+ copies of it out (without any teleporting shenaniganry) then there's something wrong.
+ Poison Trap inflicts -1000% AoE regen; and frequently locks foes into the vomiting animation.
+ Caltrops is mainly an AoE movement speed debuff with scatter. But its lengthy base recharge means damage procs are likely to kick in for the initial summoning.
+ Web Grenade is a reasonable -Recharge debuff; although a lot of folk seem to skip it.
+ Triage Beacon can be slotted with a Panacea Proc; so it can technically provide AoE +Endurance, +Health and +Regeneration (300% when slotted).
+ I've never liked Seeker Drones; but they do inflict an AOE -Perception and -Damage debuff.
+ Personally I quite enjoy toebombing with Tripmines, but as an "explodes upon summoning" power damage procs do nothing for it.

+ Detonator exists, but has been a firm skip on every MM I've played.

Altogether that's ~16% Defense (with slotted FFG); -20-60% resistance debuff, -20-60% defence debuff, -1000% regen debuff, -50% recharge debuff, -40% damage debuff (from 2x Seekers), substantial -RunSpeed and -Fly, a bit of AoE damage; plus +300% AoE +Regen (and potentially some +HP/+Endurance over time from a Panacea proc).

 

 

For /Time?
+ Temporal Mending - a hefty AOE spike heal + additional healing over time that does not require a target. It also grants resistance vs runspeed and recharge debuffs.
+ Time Crawl inflicts -100% Regen, -60% recharge, and floors their RunSpeed.
+ Time's Juncture inflicts a constant PBAoE -15% Damage debuff and -ToHit Debuff (roughly -18.5% with slotting), plus -Fly and -RunSpeed.
+ Temporal Selection buffs Regen (300% when slotted), Recharge (30%) and Damage (+18.75%) of an ally; a typical build can keep it up on 3-4 allies simultaneously.

+ Distortion Field is a debuff patch (-50% Recharge, Runspeed and -Fly) that can stack with itself and has a chance to apply a Mag3 hold. The Lockdown proc plus the two Slow set Damage Procs work nicely in it.
+ Time Stop reduces a foe's healing strength (by 37.5%), Regeneration rate (-50%) and applies a Mag3 hold.
+ Farsight is an AoE buff to Perception. ToHit and Defence for 240 seconds. Since Power Boost and Radial Clarion both apply to it; with typical slotting (ED-capped Defense) it works out at ~28.3% Defence and ~18.4% ToHit.
+ Slowed Response inflicts a -15% Defence and -22.5% AoE Damage Resistance debuff (rising to 27% if the target has been hit by Time Crawl)
+ Chrono Shift is a massive AoE which grants a chunk of endurance and restores HP over time, plus a 30s +30% Recovery buff and a 90s +50% recharge buff. The recharge buff can be made perma with sufficient global recharge.

Altogether that's ~28.3% Defense (with slotted Farsight + PB + Clarion); -22.5-27% resistance debuff, -15% defense debuff, -150% regeneration, -110% recharge, -15% damage, substantial -RunSpeed and -Fly, a smidge of AoE damage (via procs in Distortion Field); plus +300% +Regen to ~4 allies.
Plus +18.75% Damage and 30% recharge to ~4 allies; ~18.4% AoE ToHit buff, -18.5% ToHit debuff, resistance to runspeed and recharge debuffs and a single-target hold.
And shedloads of AoE healing and +recovery and +recharge buffs (including +50% global recharge to self, which can be made "perma").

 

- - - - - - - - - -

Compared to /Traps, /Time has considerably lower debuff numbers for damage resistance (assuming multiple Acid Mortars) and regeneration rate; but its buffs are much stronger and it brings a lot of other tools that Traps does not. Notably for MMs, it provides high +Defence to you and your henchmen that does not disappear if they momentarily drift out of range of you or your FFG, considerable +Damage buffs to ~4 henchmen; and can eliminate the need to slot additional accuracy or endurance reduction in your pets (-Defence debuffs get resisted by AVs something shocking; but +ToHit buffs do not). For a primary like Bots/ which does not have a pet IO set mule; has multiple pets which are very endurance heavy (the Protector Bots and Assault Bot will both drain their blue bar even with Hefty Endurance Reduction slotting) and typically requires ED-capped accuracy slotting in its T1 pets to cap hit chance versus regular +3 foes; not having to slot for multiple aspects in each pet is a godsend.

Since Bots/ already has substantial -Regen; and the +Damage Buffs take up a lot of the -Res slack; a solo Bots/Time doesn't exactly compare poorly to Bots/Traps even against AVs. The Mez Protection granted by FFG also isn't hugely impactful if the /Time is running with Clarion anyway and has Incarnate-Content Softcapped Defence. Traps gets to toebomb with Tripmine; which can increase its killspeed on average mission maps. But /Time is substantially faster at setting up and when moving between mobs (since it doesn't have to rely on FFG, and Slowed Response beats a single Acid Mortar) and also doesn't have to rely on Pet AI to get all its important debuffs applied to things.
When teaming with other players, /Time is a substantially better force multiplier due to all the +recharge rate buffs (which henchmen ignore but players do not), plus the +damage/+tohit/+recovery, higher +defense, and on-demand healing. And it can also keep up much more easily.
However the one thing a Bot/Traps can definitely do that a Bot/Time can't is take lots of Epic and pool powers. Going /Time will allow you to avoid taking Maintenance Drone and/or the Medicine Pool; but IMO the only skippable power in /Time itself is "Time Stop". Whereas a /Traps can skip more than half of their secondary and still be effective.

Quick example build: zMastermind - Robots - Time.mbd
(The MM has 58.1% Defense to all; Henchmen have 59.4%. Chrono Shift and Hasten are perma and Temporal selection can be up on four Henchmen simultaneously)

I suppose it might be worth pointing out here that I don't consider /Traps to be a bad set by any stretch. Whilst IMO its main forte lies in being slow and unstoppable (which goes against the current state of the game) and in debuffing AVs (which resist debuffs drastically and can be brute-forced these days anyway) I'd still put it ahead of the majority of MM secondaries, roughly on par with /Dark. However /Time is better performing than both (as is /Kinetics in some cases) and /Marine is leagues ahead of all of them.

[EDIT - Spelling and Formatting. That'll teach me not to start posting powerset comparisons at 3am...] 😴
 

Edited October 31, 2024 by Maelwys

[benai]

Great whenever you write an answer I want to rethink my choice. 

 

But isnt Barrier Reef even more or as vulnerable then/as FFG?

 

I have a Ninja/Time/Mace with also perma Chrono and Hasten and it works quite nice. I like specially the HoT, the Foresight and its counterpart -tohit.

But i am bad at creating any form of builds for anything. I think I miss the basically idea whats important. I am thinking to much in keeping a pure set build, which is the worst you can do at least in terms of your MM primaries.

And like I said in the other thread i actually wanted to make a low clicky MM. Currently with Bots/Traps its feels more the opposite. (Caltrops, Mortar, Seeker, Trap)

And while /marine seems nice. You have due how the game is concipated no real overview over your buffs and when and which you need to recast them Specially when you have 180-220% recharge.

 

[TheSpiritFox]

16 hours ago, benai said:

Great whenever you write an answer I want to rethink my choice. 

 

But isnt Barrier Reef even more or as vulnerable then/as FFG?

 

I have a Ninja/Time/Mace with also perma Chrono and Hasten and it works quite nice. I like specially the HoT, the Foresight and its counterpart -tohit.

But i am bad at creating any form of builds for anything. I think I miss the basically idea whats important. I am thinking to much in keeping a pure set build, which is the worst you can do at least in terms of your MM primaries.

And like I said in the other thread i actually wanted to make a low clicky MM. Currently with Bots/Traps its feels more the opposite. (Caltrops, Mortar, Seeker, Trap)

And while /marine seems nice. You have due how the game is concipated no real overview over your buffs and when and which you need to recast them Specially when you have 180-220% recharge.

 

Its my experience that neither one tends to draw aggro unless youre running into groups stealthed in front of your pets. Its pretty rare for me to lose those to enemies, more common for them to just run out of duration and have to be resummoned. And the summons are instant cast, faster even than pet resummons, so like if your ffgen takes the alpha thats pretty close to just free HP you just gained. 

The problem with marine is its complete vulnerability to Mez. FFgen provides some good mez protection against the biggest ones and time just provides enough slow, -tohit, and defense to stop alot of mez from landing in the first place, and its big buffs being long duration click buffs also makes it generally less vulnerable to mez. 

Edited November 1, 2024 by TheSpiritFox

[tidge]

I can provide more details, but my Bots/Traps/Mace:

 

Skips these primary powers:

Pulse Rifle Blast

 

Skips these secondary powers:

Web Grenade

Triage Beacon

Seeker Drones

Trip Mine

Detonator

 

Takes these from Mace:

Scorpion Shield

Mace Beam Volley

 

Fills out the build with powers from: Flight, Fighting, Leadership, Concealment

 

Typically, the MM and all the henchmen are beyond the (non-incarnate) defense 'soft-cap' (positionals) and more-or-less at/beyond the incarnate soft-cap. It depends a little on positioning, debuffs, etc. The powers I skipped can be made to do things, but for my styles of play they don't do enough. The Maintenance Drone is a miraculous addition to the primary, as since it was added the henchmen generally stay functioning modulo some unfriendly RNG/Streakbreaker rolls. I usually don't have Weave or Hover toggled on.

 

I have some, but ultimately very little franken-slotting in my build. The henchmen slotting is a special case naturally because of the limited options for pet pieces:

 

Spoiler

Level     1:            Battle Drones   

 (A) Superior Mark of Supremacy - Damage: Level 50

 (*) Superior Mark of Supremacy - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance: Level 50

 (*) Soulbound Allegiance - Chance for Build Up: Level 50

 (*) Expedient Reinforcement - Resist Bonus Aura for Pets

 (*) Sovereign Right – Accuracy/Damage

 (*) Sovereign Right - Resistance Bonus

 

Level 12:              Protector Bots  

 (A) Superior Mark of Supremacy - Damage/Endurance: Level 50

 (*) Superior Mark of Supremacy - Accuracy/Endurance: Level 50

 (*) Hami-O  Defense/Endurance (53 or use a 50+5)

 (*) Edict of the Master: Defense Bonus

 (*) Call to Arms: Defense Aura for Pets

 (*) Call to Arms: Accuracy/Damage

 

Level 22:              Assault Bot        

 (A) Superior Command of the Mastermind - Accuracy/Damage: Level 50

 (*) Superior Command of the Mastermind - Damage/Endurance: Level 50

 (*) Superior Command of the Mastermind - Damage/Endurance/Recharge: Level 50

 (*) Superior Command of the Mastermind - Recharge/Pet +AoE Defense Aura: Level 50

 (*) Superior Mark of Supremacy: Accuracy/Damage: Level 50

 (*) Superior Mark of Supremacy: Endurance, +Resist (All) +Regen(Pets): Level 50

 

The biggest issue I face with Masterminds is the heavy endurance tax they pay. My Bots/Traps/Mace is cycling through three attacks (two from primary, plus Mace Beam Volley to grab aggro and apply AoE %-Resistance and/or apply the soft control of knockdown. This is a contributing reason to NOT franken-slot the MM attacks. This is also why I would not take Hasten on a Mastermind. Generally there isn't very much in an MM build that really benefits from Hasten. The henchmen resummons timers are all quite short.

 

[Raikao]

On 10/31/2024 at 3:51 AM, Maelwys said:

For /Traps?
+ Force Field Generator grants the set its Defense and Mez Protection; but it drastically limits the speed at which a /Traps can move; and the little bugger has low HP and no inherent damage resistance so it tends to get blown up and need resummoned fairly frequently even whenever it's not getting stuck on random scenery.
+ Acid Mortar inflicts a -20% AoE damage resistance and defense debuff; stackable with other copies of. So -40% is common and -60% is possible versus multiple foes. However if you're fighting a single pack of regular foes for long enough to get 2+ copies of it out (without any teleporting shenaniganry) then there's something wrong.
+ Poison Trap inflicts -1000% AoE regen; and frequently locks foes into the vomiting animation.
+ Caltrops is mainly an AoE movement speed debuff with scatter. But its lengthy base recharge means damage procs are likely to kick in for the initial summoning.
+ Web Grenade is a reasonable -Recharge debuff; although a lot of folk seem to skip it.
+ Triage Beacon can be slotted with a Panacea Proc; so it can technically provide AoE +Endurance, +Health and +Regeneration (300% when slotted).
+ I've never liked Seeker Drones; but they do inflict an AOE -Perception and -Damage debuff.
+ Personally I quite enjoy toebombing with Tripmines, but as an "explodes upon summoning" power damage procs do nothing for it.

+ Detonator exists, but has been a firm skip on every MM I've played.

Altogether that's ~16% Defense (with slotted FFG); -20-60% resistance debuff, -20-60% defence debuff, -1000% regen debuff, -50% recharge debuff, -40% damage debuff (from 2x Seekers), substantial -RunSpeed and -Fly, a bit of AoE damage; plus +300% AoE +Regen (and potentially some +HP/+Endurance over time from a Panacea proc).

 

 

For /Time?
+ Temporal Mending - a hefty AOE spike heal + additional healing over time that does not require a target. It also grants resistance vs runspeed and recharge debuffs.
+ Time Crawl inflicts -100% Regen, -60% recharge, and floors their RunSpeed.
+ Time's Juncture inflicts a constant PBAoE -15% Damage debuff and -ToHit Debuff (roughly -18.5% with slotting), plus -Fly and -RunSpeed.
+ Temporal Selection buffs Regen (300% when slotted), Recharge (30%) and Damage (+18.75%) of an ally; a typical build can keep it up on 3-4 allies simultaneously.

+ Distortion Field is a debuff patch (-50% Recharge, Runspeed and -Fly) that can stack with itself and has a chance to apply a Mag3 hold. The Lockdown proc plus the two Slow set Damage Procs work nicely in it.
+ Time Stop reduces a foe's healing strength (by 37.5%), Regeneration rate (-50%) and applies a Mag3 hold.
+ Farsight is an AoE buff to Perception. ToHit and Defence for 240 seconds. Since Power Boost and Radial Clarion both apply to it; with typical slotting (ED-capped Defense) it works out at ~28.3% Defence and ~18.4% ToHit.
+ Slowed Response inflicts a -15% Defence and -22.5% AoE Damage Resistance debuff (rising to 27% if the target has been hit by Time Crawl)
+ Chrono Shift is a massive AoE which grants a chunk of endurance and restores HP over time, plus a 30s +30% Recovery buff and a 90s +50% recharge buff. The recharge buff can be made perma with sufficient global recharge.

Altogether that's ~28.3% Defense (with slotted Farsight + PB + Clarion); -22.5-27% resistance debuff, -15% defense debuff, -150% regeneration, -110% recharge, -15% damage, substantial -RunSpeed and -Fly, a smidge of AoE damage (via procs in Distortion Field); plus +300% +Regen to ~4 allies.
Plus +18.75% Damage and 30% recharge to ~4 allies; ~18.4% AoE ToHit buff, -18.5% ToHit debuff, resistance to runspeed and recharge debuffs and a single-target hold.
And shedloads of AoE healing and +recovery and +recharge buffs (including +50% global recharge to self, which can be made "perma").

 

- - - - - - - - - -

Compared to /Traps, /Time has considerably lower debuff numbers for damage resistance (assuming multiple Acid Mortars) and regeneration rate; but its buffs are much stronger and it brings a lot of other tools that Traps does not. Notably for MMs, it provides high +Defence to you and your henchmen that does not disappear if they momentarily drift out of range of you or your FFG, considerable +Damage buffs to ~4 henchmen; and can eliminate the need to slot additional accuracy or endurance reduction in your pets (-Defence debuffs get resisted by AVs something shocking; but +ToHit buffs do not). For a primary like Bots/ which does not have a pet IO set mule; has multiple pets which are very endurance heavy (the Protector Bots and Assault Bot will both drain their blue bar even with Hefty Endurance Reduction slotting) and typically requires ED-capped accuracy slotting in its T1 pets to cap hit chance versus regular +3 foes; not having to slot for multiple aspects in each pet is a godsend.

Since Bots/ already has substantial -Regen; and the +Damage Buffs take up a lot of the -Res slack; a solo Bots/Time doesn't exactly compare poorly to Bots/Traps even against AVs. The Mez Protection granted by FFG also isn't hugely impactful if the /Time is running with Clarion anyway and has Incarnate-Content Softcapped Defence. Traps gets to toebomb with Tripmine; which can increase its killspeed on average mission maps. But /Time is substantially faster at setting up and when moving between mobs (since it doesn't have to rely on FFG, and Slowed Response beats a single Acid Mortar) and also doesn't have to rely on Pet AI to get all its important debuffs applied to things.
When teaming with other players, /Time is a substantially better force multiplier due to all the +recharge rate buffs (which henchmen ignore but players do not), plus the +damage/+tohit/+recovery, higher +defense, and on-demand healing. And it can also keep up much more easily.
However the one thing a Bot/Traps can definitely do that a Bot/Time can't is take lots of Epic and pool powers. Going /Time will allow you to avoid taking Maintenance Drone and/or the Medicine Pool; but IMO the only skippable power in /Time itself is "Time Stop". Whereas a /Traps can skip more than half of their secondary and still be effective.

Quick example build: zMastermind - Robots - Time.mbd
(The MM has 58.1% Defense to all; Henchmen have 59.4%. Chrono Shift and Hasten are perma and Temporal selection can be up on four Henchmen simultaneously)

I suppose it might be worth pointing out here that I don't consider /Traps to be a bad set by any stretch. Whilst IMO its main forte lies in being slow and unstoppable (which goes against the current state of the game) and in debuffing AVs (which resist debuffs drastically and can be brute-forced these days anyway) I'd still put it ahead of the majority of MM secondaries, roughly on par with /Dark. However /Time is better performing than both (as is /Kinetics in some cases) and /Marine is leagues ahead of all of them.

[EDIT - Spelling and Formatting. That'll teach me not to start posting powerset comparisons at 3am...] 😴
 

 

Very well put together. I can only concur. Traps is good, surprisingly even. One of those sets where on paper it doesn't look impressive but then you place all your stuff down and the mobs just vomit themselves to death while nothing hurts you. It's weird but effective.

But /Time on bots is so cracked it's not even real. On mine I even take maintenance drone as well, sometimes you have huge incoming damage, use Temporal Mending and your Assault Bot keeps getting hammers, but the little heal drone tides you over. I took the Longbow Lore-pet for the -regen and I really don't think that build has any weaknesses. I even managed to get Group Fly in there.

 

It's the strongest MM I've played, but I am currently leveling Demons/Marine and I have at least a suspicion that Marine might do to Demons what Time does to Bots. I have a basic build from someone else and yet to put my own spin on it though.

[Maelwys]

26 minutes ago, Raikao said:

I am currently leveling Demons/Marine and I have at least a suspicion that Marine might do to Demons what Time does to Bots. I have a basic build from someone else and yet to put my own spin on it though.

Marine is incredible.

Even ASIDE from Shifting Tide Procs and Power of the Depths +MaxHP buffs (both of which are ridiculously good on MMs); Toroidal Bubble plus Ember demon buffs can Hardcap your Smashing and Fire Resistances without going anywhere near Tough or the Epic pools. Of course, Barrier Reef plus Protector Bot Bubbles, Maneuvers and Barrier can softcap all your Robotics Henchmen's defense permanently too.

And then there's Whitecap's AoE procbomb goodness and Brine's ST -res debuff and ("Let's delete this Sapper from 80ft away") MaxHP debuff. And it ALSO covers AoE Healing and +Recovery and has a Slow Patch... 🤯

[Raikao]

1 minute ago, Maelwys said:

Marine is incredible.

Even ASIDE from Shifting Tide Procs and Power of the Depths +MaxHP buffs (both of which are ridiculously good on MMs); Toroidal Bubble plus Ember demon buffs can Hardcap your Smashing and Fire Resistances without going anywhere near Tough or the Epic pools. Of course, Barrier Reef plus Protector Bot Bubbles, Maneuvers and Barrier can softcap all your Robotics Henchmen's defense permanently too.

And then there's Whitecap's AoE procbomb goodness and Brine's ST -res debuff and ("Let's delete this Sapper from 80ft away") MaxHP debuff. And it ALSO covers AoE Healing and +Recovery and has a Slow Patch... 🤯

 

Didn't even think of the "delete that target" MaxHP debuff. Only problem I think will be no -regen. At least I couldn't find any on the Demon's skills in the database. If that's the case, I'll just run Longbow Lore-pet again I guess. Maybe I overvalue -regen but against AVs and GMs I kind of want it I feel like.

 

My goal is again to make something that works really well solo first (so of course I'm doing with SuperSpeed to stealth missions if possible). So far it seems like Soothing Wave might be a 1 slot wonder. The dmg debuff is 9% regardless and the healing is only once, no HoT like Temporal Mending which makes slotting it with full Preventive Medicine or something else seem...pointless. On the build template I'm playing with Haste is 140sec cooldown still which I don't like and I have to figure out the accuracy requirements. It's been so long I don't even know how much I need on myself or the minions. Mids shows something like 236% (75%) or 258% (75%) and I don't know what that means.

 

Gaussian Chance for BuildUp in Shifting Tides placed on the T3 pet seems juicy though.

[Maelwys]

3 hours ago, Raikao said:

 

Didn't even think of the "delete that target" MaxHP debuff. Only problem I think will be no -regen. At least I couldn't find any on the Demon's skills in the database. If that's the case, I'll just run Longbow Lore-pet again I guess. Maybe I overvalue -regen but against AVs and GMs I kind of want it I feel like.

Demons/Marine indeed doesn't get any -Regen.

However you are not going to need -Regen to take down AVs on a Demons/Marine.
The sheer scale of the single damage output that combination is capable of (mostly reliant on -Res and Damage Procs; but still) can destroy a Pylon in ten seconds.
 

(And FWIW, I posted a rather more tame/general purpose build last week here)

 

[Raikao]

2 minutes ago, Maelwys said:

Demons/Marine indeed doesn't get any -Regen.

However you are not going to need -Regen to take down AVs on a Demons/Marine.
The sheer scale of the single damage output that combination is capable of (mostly reliant on -Res and Damage Procs; but still) can destroy a Pylon in ten seconds.
 

(And FWIW, I posted a rather more tame/general purpose build last week here)

 

 

Thanks I will have a look at yours. I already blatantly stole his build to tinker around with :P And yes in hindsight, especially on a Robots MM using two rifle attacks, I could have taken something else than Longbow, but then again it is a big mech so it fits the theme. 

 

I think Banished Pantheon Core is the best one? With Radial being BiS for fire farmers since it can't die?

[Maelwys]

10 minutes ago, Raikao said:

I think Banished Pantheon Core is the best one? With Radial being BiS for fire farmers since it can't die?

Banished Pantheon usually isn't the best option; especially for MMs.

The buffs that the Invulnerable support pet brings are mostly Recovery/Regen (which you don't need as a /Marine) and its additional damage is more of a gimmick. The Boss pet is OK and deals decent -Res though; and MMs can keep it alive better than most ATs.

However Talons Radial (constant AoE buffs throughout it's duration; plus a Boss pet which has an 18s Nuke that has a target cap high enough to hit every enemy on the map) or Arachnos Radial (90s AoE +Def buff, once per summoning) tend to have a higher performance ceiling for MMs. And either Carnies Radial or Seers Radial (both of which can constantly buff the damage output of one target indefinitely) tend to be better for non-MMs. So personally the only AT I take BP Radial Lore on is a Brute.


Also in answer to your other query:

Quote

I have to figure out the accuracy requirements. It's been so long I don't even know how much I need on myself or the minions. Mids shows something like 236% (75%) or 258% (75%) and I don't know what that means.

(1) Set the relative enemy level slider (top of the Mids window) to +3; and detoggle any "Build Up" procs and Supermacy. Doing that should get the unbracketed accuracy values to something more sensible/useful - you want the figure to be 95% or above (giving *YOU* a capped Hit Rate against regular +3 enemies)

(2) Now that you know what YOUR powers look like; leave the slider at +3 but remove all your Accuracy Set Bonuses - that's what your T3 Pet's accuracy will look like. Then increase the slider to +4 (what your T2 pets will look like) and then to +5 (what your T1 pets will look like).

Supremacy and Tactics will apply against your pets as well; so the actual numbers for your pets will be a bit higher in practice as long as they're closeby... but Demons are decidedly unruly + they can end up half a map away from you before you can blink!