Forgoing support on Cold Domination

[CertifiedSkrunkly]

Hello, I have a quick question before I go ahead with a concept I wanna work on. I've been messing around with a fire blast/cold dom corruptor, and frankly, I hate the support aspects of cold dom. i already have my nature defender if I wanna play the support, so i simply wanna know if not taking ice shield, glacial shield and frostwork will get me any lip from people. the concept is a mage with fire, ice, sorcery, and elec mastery ranged attacks, and corruptor feels like the best fit for that. i tried sentinel but I cant execute the same concept there as an entire secondary power set is only armors. 

[BZRKR]

While no one can predict what someone else would do, it sounds like you have a firm concept that you're building for, so go for it!.

 

I will say though, the shields on Cold accept both Resistance and Defense IOs, and therefore are great places to slot the unique IOs including the Luck of the Gambler +7.5% recharge one.

[Lunar Ronin]

To be frank, if you're PUGing, yeah, you're going to get grief over skipping Ice Shield and Glacial Shield.  Not so much Frostwork.  If you do plan to PUG, I'd advise making a second build with those powers if you don't want that grief.  That said, it's your character.

Edited November 13 by Lunar Ronin

[Teklord]

My take is that Ice shields last 4 minutes and are excellent places to mule IOs.

 

(edit) You don't have to cast them. You can just cast them at the start of a door mission and no one will notice you never renew them.

Edited November 13 by Teklord

[tidge]

44 minutes ago, CertifiedSkrunkly said:

Hello, I have a quick question before I go ahead with a concept I wanna work on. I've been messing around with a fire blast/cold dom corruptor, and frankly, I hate the support aspects of cold dom. i already have my nature defender if I wanna play the support, so i simply wanna know if not taking ice shield, glacial shield and frostwork will get me any lip from people. the concept is a mage with fire, ice, sorcery, and elec mastery ranged attacks, and corruptor feels like the best fit for that. i tried sentinel but I cant execute the same concept there as an entire secondary power set is only armors. 

 

My /Cold Corruptor skipped Ice Shield and Frostwork. Glacial Shield was added at level 49.

 

Similar to the goals listed for your concept, I wanted to take certain powers and the secondary's ally buffs were standing in my way. The Ally buffs are very good, but for a LOT of content players will be relatively self-sufficient... and if they aren't, that isn't something you can blame on another player. IMO the enemy debuffs are much more important.

 

If slowly leveling up on PUGs... by all means the shields can help a lot with lower level TF/SF. I took and used them.

 

It is possible to have a second (or third!) build that adds those powers back in at the expense of some of the other things you want for concept.... but if that was the need, maybe just have a Defender instead?

 

[Projector]

At the risk of sounding overly pedantic, I feel it's important to point out that every power in Cold Domination is a "support" power. Debuffing the enemy is as much a support as buffing your allies. So if you want Cold Domination without the support powers, well, then you wouldn't be able to use Cold Domination at all. Admittedly, it is a little strange to hate one of the main highlights of the set. Every power in Cold Domination is either a debuff or a buff, period. There is only 1 power that does damage on its own (Sleet), and Infrigidate can do damage if you slot it with procs, but does no damage on its own.

Along those lines, I think that the shields also work as a sort of "protection magic" within the mage concept. I would also group them with Arctic Fog with that classification, as it buffs defense in addition to the aoe stealth buff. So that's something to consider. You are a powerful mage that can protect and strengthen your allies while simultaneously weakening your foes. Add to that the fact that shields only have to be refreshed every few minutes means that you aren't really having to play an active buffing role all that much, and you only have to hit them once and they'll apply to all team/leaguemates in range.

No one will care if you skip Frostwork, but I do think people will care if you skip the shields, which are a real highlight of the set. In some content, you may actually get rejected outright from teams because you don't have the shields, as that's a huge selling point of why you bring Cold Domination to specific content.

Ironically, you'll also get a ton of grief if you don't set those shields to Minimal FX in the costume creator. People hate those blocky ice shields, which means you can lightly troll friends with them (not randoms!).

As @BZRKR pointed out, the other value of shields is for IOs. You can get a ton of value out of what sets you put in those shields, or even individual IOs in terms of LoTG recharge IOs and other procs.

Based on that, it really seems something like an Ice/Fire blaster or Fire/Ice Blaster would probably fit what you're looking for more, as it seems you are wanting to be more offensively minded. Especially seeing as most of the Cold Domination powers have minimal visual effects, I would wager that it won't feel as visceral playing it within the theme you are going for, whereas you could still execute your theme without worrying about how the player base might react. In fact, Ice/Fire is one of the stronger combos for Blasters, too. I have one that's a lot of fun! 

Ice/Fire/Fire on Blaster is a great triple-threat combo with access to powers like Char, Fire Shield, and Melt Armor that really add some variety to the kinds of "spells" you are casting! You can hold people with Freeze Ray or Char, you can trap them in an "endless Blizzard" with Blizzard/Ice Storm (and Burnout to really sell it), you can make the ground around you burn with Hot Feet, and because Hot Feet has a fear mechanic in it, enemies will try to run away from you as they realize they will burn alive if they get too close! You can trap enemies in a Ring of Fire, or conjure up a Fire Sword when enemies get to close, cutting through them and setting them ablaze. 

That being said, it's City of Heroes, not City of Shields, so play this game how you want to, and if you are willing to accept without offense that others may not want to have that playstyle on their team, that's okay, too. And I speak from experience, too. I have a Stone/Energy Melee Tanker that only uses Brawl and doesn't use a single power from either Stone Armor or Energy Melee. Whenever I play it, I am very transparent about what my team should expect from me, which is nothing. 😄

 

 

[CertifiedSkrunkly]

25 minutes ago, Projector said:

At the risk of sounding overly pedantic, I feel it's important to point out that every power in Cold Domination is a "support" power. Debuffing the enemy is as much a support as buffing your allies. So if you want Cold Domination without the support powers, well, then you wouldn't be able to use Cold Domination at all. Admittedly, it is a little strange to hate one of the main highlights of the set. Every power in Cold Domination is either a debuff or a buff, period. There is only 1 power that does damage on its own (Sleet), and Infrigidate can do damage if you slot it with procs, but does no damage on its own.

Along those lines, I think that the shields also work as a sort of "protection magic" within the mage concept. I would also group them with Arctic Fog with that classification, as it buffs defense in addition to the aoe stealth buff. So that's something to consider. You are a powerful mage that can protect and strengthen your allies while simultaneously weakening your foes. Add to that the fact that shields only have to be refreshed every few minutes means that you aren't really having to play an active buffing role all that much, and you only have to hit them once and they'll apply to all team/leaguemates in range.

No one will care if you skip Frostwork, but I do think people will care if you skip the shields, which are a real highlight of the set. In some content, you may actually get rejected outright from teams because you don't have the shields, as that's a huge selling point of why you bring Cold Domination to specific content.

Ironically, you'll also get a ton of grief if you don't set those shields to Minimal FX in the costume creator. People hate those blocky ice shields, which means you can lightly troll friends with them (not randoms!).

As @BZRKR pointed out, the other value of shields is for IOs. You can get a ton of value out of what sets you put in those shields, or even individual IOs in terms of LoTG recharge IOs and other procs.

Based on that, it really seems something like an Ice/Fire blaster or Fire/Ice Blaster would probably fit what you're looking for more, as it seems you are wanting to be more offensively minded. Especially seeing as most of the Cold Domination powers have minimal visual effects, I would wager that it won't feel as visceral playing it within the theme you are going for, whereas you could still execute your theme without worrying about how the player base might react. In fact, Ice/Fire is one of the stronger combos for Blasters, too. I have one that's a lot of fun! 

Ice/Fire/Fire on Blaster is a great triple-threat combo with access to powers like Char, Fire Shield, and Melt Armor that really add some variety to the kinds of "spells" you are casting! You can hold people with Freeze Ray or Char, you can trap them in an "endless Blizzard" with Blizzard/Ice Storm (and Burnout to really sell it), you can make the ground around you burn with Hot Feet, and because Hot Feet has a fear mechanic in it, enemies will try to run away from you as they realize they will burn alive if they get too close! You can trap enemies in a Ring of Fire, or conjure up a Fire Sword when enemies get to close, cutting through them and setting them ablaze. 

That being said, it's City of Heroes, not City of Shields, so play this game how you want to, and if you are willing to accept without offense that others may not want to have that playstyle on their team, that's okay, too. And I speak from experience, too. I have a Stone/Energy Melee Tanker that only uses Brawl and doesn't use a single power from either Stone Armor or Energy Melee. Whenever I play it, I am very transparent about what my team should expect from me, which is nothing. 😄

 

 

 

 

ive looked at blaster and its ice set is not what I'm looking for aesthetically and I lose the location AoE in sleet that I like to stack with rains. all I want cold dom for is the ice pew-pews even if they don't do damage on their own, I'm fine with that. its the act of shooting ice that I'm interested in. I'm really not interested in the armor giving aspect of the set though, and I'm already strapped for power picks as I'm taking most if not all of sorcery, elec fences and charged armor,  aswell as the usual suspects in leadership and fighting. I'm already fighting to fit in firebreath, but those shields are in the way. I've attached my current build below for anyone who wants further context to what I was going for before making the thread. 

Corruptor (Fire Blast - Cold Domination).mbd

[Psyonico]

I get grumpy when i see Cold or Thermal without the shields, or if they take it and never cast it.

 

I generally don't say anything, but I do get grumpy.

[tidge]

2 hours ago, Psyonico said:

I get grumpy when i see Cold or Thermal without the shields, or if they take it and never cast it.

 

I generally don't say anything, but I do get grumpy.

 

For me, a greater annoyance is never hearing a Taunt coming from Tankers or Brutes.

[Projector]

3 hours ago, CertifiedSkrunkly said:

 

 

ive looked at blaster and its ice set is not what I'm looking for aesthetically and I lose the location AoE in sleet that I like to stack with rains. all I want cold dom for is the ice pew-pews even if they don't do damage on their own, I'm fine with that. its the act of shooting ice that I'm interested in. I'm really not interested in the armor giving aspect of the set though, and I'm already strapped for power picks as I'm taking most if not all of sorcery, elec fences and charged armor,  aswell as the usual suspects in leadership and fighting. I'm already fighting to fit in firebreath, but those shields are in the way. I've attached my current build below for anyone who wants further context to what I was going for before making the thread. 

Corruptor (Fire Blast - Cold Domination).mbd 41.28 kB · 2 downloads

Hey, it's your build, your character, to play the way you want to play. Thanks for the context! I do want to be clear: I wasn't telling you that you shouldn't play cold dom, but was just trying to suggest an alternate route that may get you less friction in game, but I really think you won't encounter that friction super often (most will never look at your build or anything. I'm usually totally unaware of what powers my teammates have when I do just any random content). But yeah, I support people playing the game the way they want to play it as long as they are honest/upfront in dealing with the potential expectations their teams have. 

I think the main places you'll have problems is where those buffs matter: Master Of Task Forces/Trials in which deaths are not permitted, any hard mode content, etc. I lead a lot of hard mode and master of content and I can be honest with you in saying I would have reservations about having you on a coordinated team unless you had a second build that was more optimally-minded. Those shields provide a LOT of defense for the team. Again, I'm in full support of you playing the way you want to play, but I want to be honest about the opportunity cost with the decision, since that's what this thread is about.

Looking at your build, and if it's okay with you, I wanted to throw a couple of suggestions slot-wise! If it's not okay, pretend the post ended 2 sentences ago. I tried very hard to not negatively impact your theme, though I apologize in advance if I suggest anything that bothers you. Again, not my intent, I just have to fight the "optimal build" part of my brain that would make a lot of changes. I want to help you accomplish your theme!

1. I would move the 2nd slot in Aim over to Tactics and give it a third Gaussian's set IO so that you can get the +max hp set bonus

2. Take the last two slots from Rune of Protection, move them to Arcane Bolt, and 6-slot it with Superior Winter's Bite for the Defense buffs

3. Swap the slotting from Sleet and Fire Ball. Sleet doesn't do a lot of damage period as its main highlight is the stacking debuff. Fire Ball, however, is incredible with procs. I would also put an Acc/Dam HO OR a +5 boosted Accuracy IO in one slot on any proc'd attacks as these do have a tohit check. Ragnarok works in Sleet just fine for the set bonuses and the flat damage will be better there, but you could also put Frozen Avalanche for the additional Defense.

3a. For Fire Ball I would do one Accuracy IO, Positron's Blast Proc, Bombardment Proc, Javelin's Volley Proc, and Annihilation -res Proc.

4. I do find it really ironic that you don't want to play this as a support, but you took Spirit Ward, which requires you to stay within a certain range of whoever you cast it on for it stay active, and Enflame, which is another targeted buff. You say you don't want to play support, yet took two support powers that are also objectively worse and harder to use than the ice shields. Take my suggestion here for what it's worth, but if you're going to go with support powers anyway, you may as well go with the best options that don't break the theme, which I personally think the shields fit as a form of defense/protection magic. You still get the runic symbol vfx with mystic flight, translocation, arcane bolt, and Rune of Protection. If you agree with me on this point, and if you remove the entire Leadership pool, and you would free up 4 power slots in the exact build you attached without changing anything else. That could get you access to Blaze, Blazing Bolt, Inferno, and Infrigidate (for a ice blast pew pew), 

5. I'm not sure how intentional this was, but building for resistances isn't going to help as much with survivability as you might think since your max HP is low as a Corruptor. It would be overall wiser to build for Defenses, aiming for 30%, as then one small purple will softcap you in regular content. 

6. Change Tough to 3 slotted with Aegis for the Fire/Cold Def

7. Switch from Electric Mastery to Mu Mastery to get Charged Armor immediately, and then get Electric Shackles, which is a better power than Electric Fence. Change the slotting on Charged Armor to be 3 Aegis + the Max HP proc from Unbreakable Guard

7. I would find a way to add one additional slot to Health for the Preventative Medicine Absorb proc and then add one more slot to Mystic Flight so you can do 3 of the Hypersonic set+1 KB Reduction from Zephyr

8. Put the Shield Wall +Res proc in one of the shield powers, and replace one of the Shield Walls in Arctic Fog for the Steadfast Protection +def proc

I worry that you don't really do much damage, especially when up against single targets. Flares is the lower damaging fire blast power (though I understand the thematic reasons for taking it and I like it a lot). In a fight, I'm not entirely sure what role you functionally play. If you're not doing damage, you're playing a support toon, period. In this case, you do more support via debuffs and slows. So if you're goal was to distance yourself from playing a support role, I think you accidentally landed on playing another support toon, just one that interacts with the enemy more than your own team, and I worry this will be pretty frustrating for you long-term from a gameplay perspective. Missing Blazing Bolt, Blaze, and Inferno REALLY hurts, too. Still having a hard time accepting that one 😂

I have run out of time to make more suggestions, but I would definitely want to find a way to improve the S/L defenses, as it's only at 18% with all the suggested changes I made, versus fire/cold at 42% and E/NE at 25%. 

Again, I really hope you hear me as trying to be helpful, not critical. Anything I've been "critical" of has only been in the interest of speaking to your thread's original purpose--how the playerbase would react to such a build/theme. I'm not trying to tell you it's a bad idea to do it the way that you want, or that you shouldn't, but trying to suggest other options and ways of accomplishing the same goal that you have! 

If you're having fun and not ruining anyone else's fun, then no harm done and I'm happy you've found that!

[biostem]

5 hours ago, Projector said:

play this game how you want to, and if you are willing to accept without offense that others may not want to have that playstyle on their team, that's okay, too

Perhaps I missed it mentioned in your OP, but what, specifically, are you looking to get out of cold domination, then?  I mean, it still has some potent buffs and debuffs aside form the shields or max hp buff, and as far as I'm concerned, as long as you're contributing in **some** way, that's fine by me... 

[CertifiedSkrunkly]

5 hours ago, Projector said:

Hey, it's your build, your character, to play the way you want to play. Thanks for the context! I do want to be clear: I wasn't telling you that you shouldn't play cold dom, but was just trying to suggest an alternate route that may get you less friction in game, but I really think you won't encounter that friction super often (most will never look at your build or anything. I'm usually totally unaware of what powers my teammates have when I do just any random content). But yeah, I support people playing the game the way they want to play it as long as they are honest/upfront in dealing with the potential expectations their teams have. 

I think the main places you'll have problems is where those buffs matter: Master Of Task Forces/Trials in which deaths are not permitted, any hard mode content, etc. I lead a lot of hard mode and master of content and I can be honest with you in saying I would have reservations about having you on a coordinated team unless you had a second build that was more optimally-minded. Those shields provide a LOT of defense for the team. Again, I'm in full support of you playing the way you want to play, but I want to be honest about the opportunity cost with the decision, since that's what this thread is about.

Looking at your build, and if it's okay with you, I wanted to throw a couple of suggestions slot-wise! If it's not okay, pretend the post ended 2 sentences ago. I tried very hard to not negatively impact your theme, though I apologize in advance if I suggest anything that bothers you. Again, not my intent, I just have to fight the "optimal build" part of my brain that would make a lot of changes. I want to help you accomplish your theme!

1. I would move the 2nd slot in Aim over to Tactics and give it a third Gaussian's set IO so that you can get the +max hp set bonus

2. Take the last two slots from Rune of Protection, move them to Arcane Bolt, and 6-slot it with Superior Winter's Bite for the Defense buffs

3. Swap the slotting from Sleet and Fire Ball. Sleet doesn't do a lot of damage period as its main highlight is the stacking debuff. Fire Ball, however, is incredible with procs. I would also put an Acc/Dam HO OR a +5 boosted Accuracy IO in one slot on any proc'd attacks as these do have a tohit check. Ragnarok works in Sleet just fine for the set bonuses and the flat damage will be better there, but you could also put Frozen Avalanche for the additional Defense.

3a. For Fire Ball I would do one Accuracy IO, Positron's Blast Proc, Bombardment Proc, Javelin's Volley Proc, and Annihilation -res Proc.

4. I do find it really ironic that you don't want to play this as a support, but you took Spirit Ward, which requires you to stay within a certain range of whoever you cast it on for it stay active, and Enflame, which is another targeted buff. You say you don't want to play support, yet took two support powers that are also objectively worse and harder to use than the ice shields. Take my suggestion here for what it's worth, but if you're going to go with support powers anyway, you may as well go with the best options that don't break the theme, which I personally think the shields fit as a form of defense/protection magic. You still get the runic symbol vfx with mystic flight, translocation, arcane bolt, and Rune of Protection. If you agree with me on this point, and if you remove the entire Leadership pool, and you would free up 4 power slots in the exact build you attached without changing anything else. That could get you access to Blaze, Blazing Bolt, Inferno, and Infrigidate (for a ice blast pew pew), 

5. I'm not sure how intentional this was, but building for resistances isn't going to help as much with survivability as you might think since your max HP is low as a Corruptor. It would be overall wiser to build for Defenses, aiming for 30%, as then one small purple will softcap you in regular content. 

6. Change Tough to 3 slotted with Aegis for the Fire/Cold Def

7. Switch from Electric Mastery to Mu Mastery to get Charged Armor immediately, and then get Electric Shackles, which is a better power than Electric Fence. Change the slotting on Charged Armor to be 3 Aegis + the Max HP proc from Unbreakable Guard

7. I would find a way to add one additional slot to Health for the Preventative Medicine Absorb proc and then add one more slot to Mystic Flight so you can do 3 of the Hypersonic set+1 KB Reduction from Zephyr

8. Put the Shield Wall +Res proc in one of the shield powers, and replace one of the Shield Walls in Arctic Fog for the Steadfast Protection +def proc

I worry that you don't really do much damage, especially when up against single targets. Flares is the lower damaging fire blast power (though I understand the thematic reasons for taking it and I like it a lot). In a fight, I'm not entirely sure what role you functionally play. If you're not doing damage, you're playing a support toon, period. In this case, you do more support via debuffs and slows. So if you're goal was to distance yourself from playing a support role, I think you accidentally landed on playing another support toon, just one that interacts with the enemy more than your own team, and I worry this will be pretty frustrating for you long-term from a gameplay perspective. Missing Blazing Bolt, Blaze, and Inferno REALLY hurts, too. Still having a hard time accepting that one 😂

I have run out of time to make more suggestions, but I would definitely want to find a way to improve the S/L defenses, as it's only at 18% with all the suggested changes I made, versus fire/cold at 42% and E/NE at 25%. 

Again, I really hope you hear me as trying to be helpful, not critical. Anything I've been "critical" of has only been in the interest of speaking to your thread's original purpose--how the playerbase would react to such a build/theme. I'm not trying to tell you it's a bad idea to do it the way that you want, or that you shouldn't, but trying to suggest other options and ways of accomplishing the same goal that you have! 

If you're having fun and not ruining anyone else's fun, then no harm done and I'm happy you've found that!

i took sorcery for the aesthetics. i dont cast enflame on people, i cast it on mobs. all it does is create a fire AoE. so casting it on the tankiest mob in a pull is how I usually use it, since it has a pretty quick recharge anyways. i took flares because it looks cooler, I know that fire blast has higher damage. i also skipped everything else because I only wanted the distanced AoE's from fire. though I skipped inferno because I'm playing a ranged toon, I don't want to be anywhere near a pull with how squishy I am. that said, ill give most of your suggestions a try. to answer @biostem, I've tried looking at sentinel, blaster, controller, and dominator. def/corr, has what I'm looking for aesthetically. i already have a defender, so I went with corruptor for this toon. what i wanted was the dual elements of fire and ice, but in order to get exactly what i want, I'm stuck using the 2 support AT's. if blaster used fire blast, and ice manipulation had the same AoEs, id be using that. 

[biostem]

12 hours ago, CertifiedSkrunkly said:

def/corr, has what I'm looking for aesthetically

That right there is as good a reason as any, IMO...

Edited November 14 by biostem

[Nemu]

18 hours ago, CertifiedSkrunkly said:

aswell as the usual suspects in leadership and fighting

Is this part of your concept or is this just you following generic forum advice that every build needs leadership and fighting?

[CertifiedSkrunkly]

24 minutes ago, Nemu said:

Is this part of your concept or is this just you following generic forum advice that every build needs leadership and fighting?

its neither. without any kind of defense to speak of, the floor will be my friend. the shield buffs don't even affect me and the only powers I have to rely on for defence is arctic fog and run of protection from sorcery. 

[Nemu]

1 minute ago, CertifiedSkrunkly said:

only powers I have to rely on for defence is arctic fog and run of protection from sorcery. 

 

No my misguided friend, you do not NEED either leadership or fighting for survival. IO set bonuses do wonders for your build.

 

I looked over your build and share many sentiments that @Projector wrote out. Whether you take the shields or not though is not the biggest area of my concern. I would imagine you are not going to run this build for hard mode content nor would people interested in that content accept you on their teams once they scan your power picks, so that point is moot. For normal content most people won't care because chances are you are going to either be carried by some IOed out player or you will be doing the carrying (you will not be doing the latter).

 

What I'm concerned about the most is how anemic your damage output would be. I can even accept this notion that you are squishy and you don't want to use inferno because that puts you in melee range. If you fit in fire breath like you stated, you can still put out respectable AoE damage. But skipping out on blaze and blazing bolt? Those are the hardest hitting 2 Ranged attacks in your toolkit.

 

I can see a world where you drop the shields from your current build, pick up infrigidate, and fire breath, drop either leadership or fighting and pick up blaze and blazing bolt, if you wanted to you can even pick up shocking bolt. And if you dropped both leadership and fighting you can even pick up hover.

 

Maybe you don't believe me, but seeing is believing. Here's your build reworked to have softcap range defense WITHOUT fighting or leadership. I even left you a free powerpick at 49.

 

 

You Don't Need Fighting Or Leadership For Survival - Corruptor (Fire Blast - Cold Domination).mbd

 

If you want to learn how to make builds, I can teach you. I'm all for building for theme and fun, but you can still optimize while following your themes.

[Without_Pause]

As always, it is your build and concept, but I would be stunned if you didn't get flack. Concept builds is one thing, but skipping the last three powers in Fire is basically begging me to not 1-star the character. Doms can get Sleet in their epic. I might have been willing to try the concept as a Dom instead. Note, I have seen /cold Corrs not take the shields and said nothing. But if I see the listed powers and don't see you using the shields, that's an instant red flag, and you're being carried on a team in a similar way to a 'pure healer,' Again, play how you want, but the question is "Am I going to get blowback for this build?" Absolutely 100%.

[tidge]

Looking for some clarification, and some further comments of my own.

 

15 hours ago, Projector said:

I think the main places you'll have problems is where those buffs matter: Master Of Task Forces/Trials in which deaths are not permitted, any hard mode content, etc. I lead a lot of hard mode and master of content and I can be honest with you in saying I would have reservations about having you on a coordinated team unless you had a second build that was more optimally-minded. Those shields provide a LOT of defense for the team. Again, I'm in full support of you playing the way you want to play, but I want to be honest about the opportunity cost with the decision, since that's what this thread is about.

 

My understanding is that, except for no-Incarnate power runs (e.g. "Master of..."), the teams' defenses are being provided by multiple players juggling Destiny Barrier... Ice Shield and Glacial Shield do more than just buff Defenses of course, but not that much more (for surviving, in general) given how attack mechanics work.

 

My comment is about second builds, even though I also suggested have one (for other content) earlier in the thread. A second build for something specific like a "Master of...." run can be a rather large ask for a new (or resource limited) player. I write this because *I* would expect that a player wanting to succeed on a "Master of..." run have a full compliment of higher-end Enhancement set bonuses slotted... and I would expect that the player invest in their *fun concept* build before trying to satisfy random other player who wants to run MoX with a very particular set of requirements.

 

[Projector]

1 hour ago, tidge said:

Looking for some clarification, and some further comments of my own.

 

 

My understanding is that, except for no-Incarnate power runs (e.g. "Master of..."), the teams' defenses are being provided by multiple players juggling Destiny Barrier... Ice Shield and Glacial Shield do more than just buff Defenses of course, but not that much more (for surviving, in general) given how attack mechanics work.

 

My comment is about second builds, even though I also suggested have one (for other content) earlier in the thread. A second build for something specific like a "Master of...." run can be a rather large ask for a new (or resource limited) player. I write this because *I* would expect that a player wanting to succeed on a "Master of..." run have a full compliment of higher-end Enhancement set bonuses slotted... and I would expect that the player invest in their *fun concept* build before trying to satisfy random other player who wants to run MoX with a very particular set of requirements.

 

Happy to provide some clarification. It's going to be long, and I hope it's not taken as condescending or mean. I'm really trying to be thorough and clear in my explanation, and provide several examples to help that goal. I'm always down for the conversation and happy to engage :). With that said, I hope you brought your reading glasses!

We begin our novel as thus:

Yes, the bulk of survivability in team and league content comes from barriers and other destinies, and when it comes to league and team survivability, it's kind of a soup of buffs. Everyone firing their buffs helps the team. Yet this is not always a reliable thing. I run iTrials all the time where, in iTrials like MoM or UG, Clarion is an important Destiny to have, and I discover that no one has it. Or I have been in leagues where literally no one brought buffs or we only have a few healers, but no added defenses or other stats. It happens so commonly, it's a running joke now amongst friends how often I end up having to load in two accounts into a trial just to provide something the league is missing.

I also lead a lot of 4Star content and run an open Discord where I help others learn how to approach hard mode content. There's a reason the strongest buff set requested in 4Star is Cold Domination--it gives defense buffs as well as debuffs. Literally 3 of them in a standard meta team. And you can absolutely feel a difference if so much as one or two of those Cold Dom players are not running Nerve Core Alpha for the increased defense buff--their shields really make a huge difference in the team's survivability, and that's with consistent Barrier rotations that keep the team above 125% Ranged Defense. Sometimes people miss a barrier or are late, or someone dies, rezzes, and needs buffs to stay alive until the next Barrier. Things like that are common. The buffer matters more than you think. And building for more individual survivability is not the answer to that problem, as it means you are likely sacrificing damage/recharge/max hp, which can make some fights impossible to complete.

It's also true that you can accomplish 4Star runs with almost anything you want to bring, provided you meet certain stat minimums and have Lores. The further you get away from the stronger sets/powers, the longer the runs will take and the more difficult the fights will often be. Literally the difference between having 2-3 -heal debuffs OR not having a few -rech debuffs in the K'ong/Dra'Gon fight in LGTF is the difference between that fight taking less than 5 minutes or the fight taking almost all of the 25-minute timer you have to complete it. And trust me, one of those is WAY more stressful and difficult than the other. Needlessly so.

There was a run recently where I was on the verge of tears from the stress and subsequent relief after leading through a 21-minute K'ong fight in which we did not have enough -rech and only one -heal. We were successful, which is great! But as a leader, I have a right to enjoy the content, too, which means I shouldn't have to subject myself to that level of stress every time I lead something just to make room for players who refuse to bring what will help the team succeed. I don't want that stress every time I lead a run, so yeah, I don't think there's anything wrong with me asking for specific powersets/roles on a team. Just as there is nothing objectively wrong with a player building the way they want to build, there is also nothing wrong with other players wanting to do a faster/less stressful run through the content.

If you had the choice between a 30-minute ITF with 15 deaths or a 90-minute ITF with 350 deaths (Immortal Recoveries cost ~1 mil, so that's an expensive run), which would you choose? Are you wrong for not preferring one versus the other, or are you wrong for not wanting to join a run in which the players prefer the option that you don't? I've been a part of both kinds of runs, and seen some 4star runs be as long as 3 hours with over 600 deaths. For the players that enjoy that, wonderful! That's never going to be me, and no one is wrong for either preference.

Overall, I agree with your comments, I would expect the player to do the exact same as you would regarding kitting out their current build and when they would make a second build. In fact, I would bring OP on a 4Star run, but I would have to bring them as the 8th spot on the team once I have every other role and need solidified. Without shields, the thematic build provides almost no value to what a 4Star team needs aside from Heat Loss, Benumb, and Sleet. And btw, I'm not in any way trying to be mean about that, but I am being blunt, because knowing what I know after doing countless 4Star runs, there are several fights in which I would basically have to tell OP, "Only use Arcane Bolt, Flares, and Electric Fence/Shackles, please" and tell them to ignore 90% of their kit because it would actively cause problems in specific fights.

It can also cause us to have to soft-reset certain missions (such as accidentally freeing a hostage before K'ong spawns). And resetting missions in TFs SUCKS because of a current bug where if everyone logs out, sometimes logging back in results in the team being literally split into 2 teams, forcing you to have to restart the whole TF. 

All that said, It's totally okay for OP to do whatever they want to do! I have never once said "don't do it." I've just tried to be honest about the potential outcomes they are worried about, and the reasons those outcomes exist. OP asked if they would encounter problems running a build in which they don't take key powers in the set. I am answering that yes, they likely will for certain content. Whether you or I think it's right or wrong for them to have those problems is irrelevant to OP's purposes. 

Also, no player is entitled to join a team that has a very particular goal in mind or is looking for a specific team composition. If I say I want to do an all Mastermind ITF, other ATs wouldn't be welcome by definition. If I want to do something in which I am looking for a source of additional defense buffs for the team, then players without those buffs wouldn't be welcome by definition. If I say I have one spot open for a Tank, a Blaster wouldn't be welcome by definition. 

To drive my point home: In my opinion, expecting a player to "have a full compliment of higher-end Enhancement set bonuses slotted" for MoX content is no different than a leader expecting a Cold Domination player to have ice/glacial shields for the same content. They both impact the potential for the run to be successful.

I also don't know why the burden would be on any leader to accept someone on their team who isn't built properly for whatever is being attempted, and not on the player to build what is needed or preferred for that content? Why is it a tall ask only to ask players to bring a build that's relevant to the content, but not a tall ask for the leaders to accommodate that build when it could likely end up being a waste of time for the other 7 players on the team?

It's an attitude I face quite frequently, and myself and many others who lead content regularly have either gotten burned out for periods of time or have had a hard time continuing to lead content because they are forced to either eat constant crap from players who are upset they can't come (for things as simple as the team already being full when they ask to join) or a much higher failure rate from trying to accommodate everyone who wants to come. After a while, that stuff does wear on you, thick skin or not, because it goes on for months and months. I see Hami leads get flamed all the time for the zone being full by the time that player tried to enter. Not even remotely the league leader's fault that the player was too late, but that disappointment and anger gets misplaced and put onto the leader.

If I am going to take 30 minutes or an hour or however long to lead something, I would hope that the players that come would respect that time/effort enough to bring what is needed to do the content well. I would hope that the players that participate would want to do everything they could to make the run successful, and to be blunt, I'm not going to waste my time leading an MoLGTF, MoITF, 4Star LGTF, RHW, etc. that I have little reason to believe will be successful. I have RSIs in both arms, so it's actually really important for me to minimize how much I play and optimize how I spend that time playing. If players don't want to respect that, then that's okay, there are other teams and other leaders, and there is nothing stopping those players from leading a team themselves and approaching it whatever way they want to 🙂

I really don't think there is any bad guy here, nor do I think you're saying anyone is the bad guy. I don't think leaders are the bad guys for wanting to form their teams any specific way, nor do I think players like OP are the bad guys for wanting to build a certain way. They just have different goals for their playstyle, and there is nothing wrong with that. It is just a natural outcome of the choices both players made for how they are playing the game that day.

[Ringo]

I think anyone who gets mad about not seeing a power in your list is laughable, and seeing you not use a power you do have is only slightly better

 

You can’t see slotting!  Even if I'm using the powers you want me to, you'll never know that my build is filled with expired red SOs, or that my KB powers are slotted only with accuracy and extra KB, etc

 

The only way to combat this would be to kick people based on how many IO set-bonuses they have listed.

 

Edit:  oh I see this has already been mentioned.  Welp, to each their own then

Edited November 14 by Ringo

[CertifiedSkrunkly]

1 hour ago, Projector said:

Happy to provide some clarification. It's going to be long, and I hope it's not taken as condescending or mean. I'm really trying to be thorough and clear in my explanation, and provide several examples to help that goal. I'm always down for the conversation and happy to engage :). With that said, I hope you brought your reading glasses!

We begin our novel as thus:

Yes, the bulk of survivability in team and league content comes from barriers and other destinies, and when it comes to league and team survivability, it's kind of a soup of buffs. Everyone firing their buffs helps the team. Yet this is not always a reliable thing. I run iTrials all the time where, in iTrials like MoM or UG, Clarion is an important Destiny to have, and I discover that no one has it. Or I have been in leagues where literally no one brought buffs or we only have a few healers, but no added defenses or other stats. It happens so commonly, it's a running joke now amongst friends how often I end up having to load in two accounts into a trial just to provide something the league is missing.

I also lead a lot of 4Star content and run an open Discord where I help others learn how to approach hard mode content. There's a reason the strongest buff set requested in 4Star is Cold Domination--it gives defense buffs as well as debuffs. Literally 3 of them in a standard meta team. And you can absolutely feel a difference if so much as one or two of those Cold Dom players are not running Nerve Core Alpha for the increased defense buff--their shields really make a huge difference in the team's survivability, and that's with consistent Barrier rotations that keep the team above 125% Ranged Defense. Sometimes people miss a barrier or are late, or someone dies, rezzes, and needs buffs to stay alive until the next Barrier. Things like that are common. The buffer matters more than you think. And building for more individual survivability is not the answer to that problem, as it means you are likely sacrificing damage/recharge/max hp, which can make some fights impossible to complete.

It's also true that you can accomplish 4Star runs with almost anything you want to bring, provided you meet certain stat minimums and have Lores. The further you get away from the stronger sets/powers, the longer the runs will take and the more difficult the fights will often be. Literally the difference between having 2-3 -heal debuffs OR not having a few -rech debuffs in the K'ong/Dra'Gon fight in LGTF is the difference between that fight taking less than 5 minutes or the fight taking almost all of the 25-minute timer you have to complete it. And trust me, one of those is WAY more stressful and difficult than the other. Needlessly so.

There was a run recently where I was on the verge of tears from the stress and subsequent relief after leading through a 21-minute K'ong fight in which we did not have enough -rech and only one -heal. We were successful, which is great! But as a leader, I have a right to enjoy the content, too, which means I shouldn't have to subject myself to that level of stress every time I lead something just to make room for players who refuse to bring what will help the team succeed. I don't want that stress every time I lead a run, so yeah, I don't think there's anything wrong with me asking for specific powersets/roles on a team. Just as there is nothing objectively wrong with a player building the way they want to build, there is also nothing wrong with other players wanting to do a faster/less stressful run through the content.

If you had the choice between a 30-minute ITF with 15 deaths or a 90-minute ITF with 350 deaths (Immortal Recoveries cost ~1 mil, so that's an expensive run), which would you choose? Are you wrong for not preferring one versus the other, or are you wrong for not wanting to join a run in which the players prefer the option that you don't? I've been a part of both kinds of runs, and seen some 4star runs be as long as 3 hours with over 600 deaths. For the players that enjoy that, wonderful! That's never going to be me, and no one is wrong for either preference.

Overall, I agree with your comments, I would expect the player to do the exact same as you would regarding kitting out their current build and when they would make a second build. In fact, I would bring OP on a 4Star run, but I would have to bring them as the 8th spot on the team once I have every other role and need solidified. Without shields, the thematic build provides almost no value to what a 4Star team needs aside from Heat Loss, Benumb, and Sleet. And btw, I'm not in any way trying to be mean about that, but I am being blunt, because knowing what I know after doing countless 4Star runs, there are several fights in which I would basically have to tell OP, "Only use Arcane Bolt, Flares, and Electric Fence/Shackles, please" and tell them to ignore 90% of their kit because it would actively cause problems in specific fights.

It can also cause us to have to soft-reset certain missions (such as accidentally freeing a hostage before K'ong spawns). And resetting missions in TFs SUCKS because of a current bug where if everyone logs out, sometimes logging back in results in the team being literally split into 2 teams, forcing you to have to restart the whole TF. 

All that said, It's totally okay for OP to do whatever they want to do! I have never once said "don't do it." I've just tried to be honest about the potential outcomes they are worried about, and the reasons those outcomes exist. OP asked if they would encounter problems running a build in which they don't take key powers in the set. I am answering that yes, they likely will for certain content. Whether you or I think it's right or wrong for them to have those problems is irrelevant to OP's purposes. 

Also, no player is entitled to join a team that has a very particular goal in mind or is looking for a specific team composition. If I say I want to do an all Mastermind ITF, other ATs wouldn't be welcome by definition. If I want to do something in which I am looking for a source of additional defense buffs for the team, then players without those buffs wouldn't be welcome by definition. If I say I have one spot open for a Tank, a Blaster wouldn't be welcome by definition. 

To drive my point home: In my opinion, expecting a player to "have a full compliment of higher-end Enhancement set bonuses slotted" for MoX content is no different than a leader expecting a Cold Domination player to have ice/glacial shields for the same content. They both impact the potential for the run to be successful.

I also don't know why the burden would be on any leader to accept someone on their team who isn't built properly for whatever is being attempted, and not on the player to build what is needed or preferred for that content? Why is it a tall ask only to ask players to bring a build that's relevant to the content, but not a tall ask for the leaders to accommodate that build when it could likely end up being a waste of time for the other 7 players on the team?

It's an attitude I face quite frequently, and myself and many others who lead content regularly have either gotten burned out for periods of time or have had a hard time continuing to lead content because they are forced to either eat constant crap from players who are upset they can't come (for things as simple as the team already being full when they ask to join) or a much higher failure rate from trying to accommodate everyone who wants to come. After a while, that stuff does wear on you, thick skin or not, because it goes on for months and months. I see Hami leads get flamed all the time for the zone being full by the time that player tried to enter. Not even remotely the league leader's fault that the player was too late, but that disappointment and anger gets misplaced and put onto the leader.

If I am going to take 30 minutes or an hour or however long to lead something, I would hope that the players that come would respect that time/effort enough to bring what is needed to do the content well. I would hope that the players that participate would want to do everything they could to make the run successful, and to be blunt, I'm not going to waste my time leading an MoLGTF, MoITF, 4Star LGTF, RHW, etc. that I have little reason to believe will be successful. I have RSIs in both arms, so it's actually really important for me to minimize how much I play and optimize how I spend that time playing. If players don't want to respect that, then that's okay, there are other teams and other leaders, and there is nothing stopping those players from leading a team themselves and approaching it whatever way they want to 🙂

I really don't think there is any bad guy here, nor do I think you're saying anyone is the bad guy. I don't think leaders are the bad guys for wanting to form their teams any specific way, nor do I think players like OP are the bad guys for wanting to build a certain way. They just have different goals for their playstyle, and there is nothing wrong with that. It is just a natural outcome of the choices both players made for how they are playing the game that day.

 

on the point about player attitude, I very much relate to. my main in game is Incubussy, a nature/sonic Def on the everlasting server. i used to run a lot of PI for people looking to level up. i have caught crap for missions not being blazing fast, not throwing a rez immediately after someone runs off in an entirely different direction from the team, to exactly that, teams being full before they get a message in. what made me take a step back was when on one of these runs a player who said they were returning to the game joined my team. after which they began to cause all sorts of trouble for the rest of the team and started complaining about how the game isn't how they remembered it was and blaming me for taking them to a level 50 zone that even though i said any level is welcome to join it was still a 54x8. that completely soured my taste for hosting teams. and while i probably will go back to doing it, it just sucks. especially when I'm trying to keep the morale high for teams late at night and someone wants to be a spoil sport. ...i don't remember my point, apologies.

[CertifiedSkrunkly]

taking the suggestions from @Projector and the build from @Nemu, I've ultimately settled for this. 

Corruptor (Fire Blast - Cold Domination).mbd

[Without_Pause]

1 hour ago, Ringo said:

I think anyone who gets mad about not seeing a power in your list is laughable

If you aren't even taking the two best DPA ST attacks and skipping the nuke, I have genuine questions about why you are even playing a Corr. 

[CertifiedSkrunkly]

4 minutes ago, Without_Pause said:

If you aren't even taking the two best DPA ST attacks and skipping the nuke, I have genuine questions about why you are even playing a Corr. 

 

because not everyone cares about playing the most optimal version of an AT. i chose corr because it has certain powers that arent available on other ATs. you suggested previously that a Dom would be a better choice when I already addressed that its not. yes I can grab sleet as a mastery, but fiery assault does not have rain of fire in it. i want both sleet and rain of fire. getting the power combos that I want is not possible on other ATs. if I have to break a few rules to get what I want, I will, I made this thread simply as a courtesy to see what the general response would be. i didn't have to ask. but I still did. and now I know that cold doms without shield picks are generally not popular. with @Projector and @Nemu's help, I now have a build where I have all the powers I want, even if I had to take the ones I don't and everyone's happy. The game gives you the freedom to make any build you want. to question why someone does anything at all like that is, respectfully, a bit asinine. i am willing to bet you've seen things far, far more out there than a cold dom not wanting to throw shields.

[Nemu]

2 hours ago, CertifiedSkrunkly said:

taking the suggestions from @Projector and the build from @Nemu, I've ultimately settled for this. 

Corruptor (Fire Blast - Cold Domination).mbd 42.17 kB · 1 download

Powersink requires you to be in melee range, you probably don't want that given your stated playstyle.

 

You don't need to pick up the shields if you don't plan to do hardmode content and even if you did want to do hardmode you'll probably want a different spec of the build altogether. Like I said, if you play on Excelsior a great majority of your team experience will be those where you contributions don't really matter all that much aside from damage. A densely populated server like that will always have 1-2 uber IOed players on a team carrying the rest. I suppose with concept build like that where you consciously make build choices like that you might as well play into the player population "meta" and set up shop on a server that has the greatest chance of not giving you any flak for your choices.