How much tech does it take...?

[Scarlet Shocker]

1 hour ago, Techwright said:

 

That's fine.  I wasn't really asking in order to decide.  My OP was meant more as a curiosity of what other's interpretation(s) would be.

 

Well you got mine! It's however I feel it fits in the moment.

 

I often go for Science - I am drawn to it because I believe it's one of the least common origins, and also it allows a lot of leeway.

[srmalloy]

4 hours ago, Techwright said:

As one man once said "Do what thou wilt is the whole of the law" but I doubt he'd ever thought of City of Heroes when he said it.

Particularly because it falls under the same truncated misquotation problem as "money is the root of all evil" ('The love of money is the root of all evil'). The original quote is "An it harm none, do what thou wild be the whole of the law."

[biostem]

On 1/8/2025 at 3:07 PM, PoptartsNinja said:

Statesman and Lord Recluse's powers came from the same source, but Statesman is magic origin and Lord Recluse is science origin

I thought Recluse was "Science" because he attempted to intervene and direct/manipulate what was granted to him by the Well of Furies, vs Statesman just kind of "going with it"...

[PoptartsNinja]

7 hours ago, biostem said:

I thought Recluse was "Science" because he attempted to intervene and direct/manipulate what was granted to him by the Well of Furies, vs Statesman just kind of "going with it"...

Nope, it's in the novel.

Richter thought he'd been dosed with radiation, while Cole was certain they'd found Pandora's Box.

[Kaika]

On 1/7/2025 at 5:46 PM, Frozen Burn said:

A demon might be considered "magic" origin, but it is what it is - it was born/spawned/created as a demon and it has inherent and natural abilities, it doesn't do spell work as it's magic is "natural" to it and therefore could be considered as a "natural" origin.  Same could be said for a Mutant that was born that way - it's abilities being natural and inherent. 

 

Oh hey, this is LITERALLY the back story of my Natural origin stalker "Fio Rune" everything she does is something that she can naturally do because she is a demon, she is just really good at it, basically the demonic equivalent of a martial arts master.

 

Really though, there is no hard lines and it all comes down to interpretation. Depending on who's writing him, Batman could be consider of both Tech and Natural origin, and while I personally would lean more on the natural origin, with all the gadgets and vehicles he uses I could see a argument for him being a tech origin. It's a issue I've had when making a few of my characters, I usually just end up settling on what feels the most "central" to their abilities or character.

[Scarlet Shocker]

I think there's another issue that hasn't necessarily been considered when looking at silver-age heroes as far as their origins go.

 

One of the biggest bugbears in this context is how radically they've changed over the decades. Batman (and to a lesser extent Daredevil) both got major reworkings by Frank Miller. Batman was originally the Detective. He was a pure science guy, using the scientific method to track down criminals and put them behind bars. He was born in an era where people thought reason would trump chaos (the Joker) and so wasn't necessarily super-powered per se, but had a ton of cool stuff allowing him to thwart the evil schemes of the most nefarious.

 

Similarly Daredevil who in his earliest iteration was little more than a poor-man's Spidey, his loss of sight compensated with a radar sense and a billy club held together with magical string (something never really explained.)

 

Miller took both of those and effectively turned them into ninja warriors, honing their bodies into ultimate fighting machines, supreme athletes to compliment their existing back storied powers. It's hard to see how those latter iterations can be anything other than natural origin - so do we take the above examples as science, augmented by natural ability, or do we take them as natural characters who uses science to get the job done? If we take a snapshot of the characters in their history we might end up with something very different to our common perception.

 

This last year's Olympics gives another interesting example: Yusuf Dikec. in a field where most contestants had all kinds of tech, the best pistol, eye glasses that blanked out an eye, visors to block distractions, he rocks up with nothing, shoves a hand in his pocket and wins a silver medal. The other contestants used tech for their advantage and he is clearly natural origin.

 

Origins, like the alignment system in D&D is a great mechanic but it can be limiting and pigeon-hole characters - it has a great advantage in terms of RP and back story, it rounds the character out wonderfully, but in terms of actual game play it's rarely useful, and it can be  a bit more constraining rather than a benefit at times.

[Ulysses Dare]

9 hours ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

Miller took both of those and effectively turned them into ninja warriors, honing their bodies into ultimate fighting machines, supreme athletes to compliment their existing back storied powers.

I'm not a Daredevil fan, so I can't speak to him, but Batman was being presented as both a superb athlete and a master martial artist long before Frank Miller.

[DoctorDitko]

Yep. Check out Englehart and Rogers' run. Classic.

[TalynDerre]

On 1/11/2025 at 6:17 AM, Scarlet Shocker said:

This last year's Olympics gives another interesting example: Yusuf Dikec. in a field where most contestants had all kinds of tech, the best pistol, eye glasses that blanked out an eye, visors to block distractions, he rocks up with nothing, shoves a hand in his pocket and wins a silver medal. The other contestants used tech for their advantage and he is clearly natural origin.

 

I was actually using this as an example the other day, when explaining 'origins' to a friend who doesn't play City of Heroes.

[Stormwalker]

On 1/6/2025 at 11:51 PM, Techwright said:

How much technology does it take before a Natural Origin should be considered a Technological Origin?

 

Iron-Man is pretty obvious.  He's got the brilliant mind, and may have learned a few natural moves along the way, but he's almost entirely reliant on the power suit or components of it.

 

What of Batman or Green Hornet, though?  Both use tricked-out cars, and Batman has other tricked out rides as well.  Batman heavily uses his utility belt and costume elements incorporating technology (which varies in the re-tellings).  Green Hornet, though the number of his gizmos is fewer, uses both a special gas pellet gun and a custom "Sting", basically a heavy duty taser in either gun or rod form.   Yet both are skilled hand-to-hand fighters with no modifications to their bodies (like cybernetics).  Where do these considerations land them?

 

I'm reminded of Batman, during the Knightsend arc, calling out Jean-Paul Valley for relying on his fancy suit way too much.

 

Azbats:  And what do you rely on?

Batman slams the sliding doors shut on Azbats' arms, then clocks him

Batman: Whatever is at hand.

 

Azbats was a Tech Origin.  Batman is a Natural Origin.

 

Batman relies primarily on his mind and his superb combat skills, which he put himself through Training from Hell to develop.  The gadges are accessories to those skills.

 

Similarly, Spider-Man (I'm referring to the original Peter Parker here)  is a science origin even though he uses a lot of gadgets (like his web shooters) extensively.  This is because what allows him to be Spider-Man is the power he got from the radioactive spider bite.  Everything else, even the web shooters (as iconic as they are) is just an augmentation of that.

Edited January 14 by Stormwalker

[Forager]

I play mostly natural origin/themed characters. My personal criteria for choosing technology instead is the tech they use is very unique to them. 

[Jaiclll]

On 1/7/2025 at 2:46 PM, Frozen Burn said:

Or, a science experiment could cause someone to mutate - so, which origin are they - Science or Mutant?

That one is easy for me. If they get mutated from a science experiment I use science because all the data to replicate it is there. If they are born with it, and its not natural for their species, then its mutant as they wouldnt be able to replicate it under most circumstances.

 

Batman could go either way however he makes more sense as technology to me. Without the bat computer he would never find crime fast enough. When enemies are stronger then a normal human and he doesnt surprise them he always has to rely on something else or he loses, like when bane broke his back. I'm pretty sure non of his contingency plans say go punch the guy bare handed except for maybe green arrow. He relies on technology and is only able to fight normal people without it. Anyone super powered without tech hes either going to be useless or require another hero to follow his plan.

[Maelwys]

If only the game had some method of representing a hero who is was unpowered Naturally, but uses a wide variety of Inventions to gain an edge against more powerful foes and situations...

 

And whilst we're wishing on a star... perhaps they could implement some way to represent how that character could intentionally choose to fight stronger opponents to gain Experience, seek out different established masters to Train themselves up, build up a Contacts list, gain Influence and develop a reputation and maybe even ultimately join a Group of Superfriends who all have different powers/abilities to fight crimes that none of them could handle alone (or just hang out in their superbase having a games night and pizza)...?

 

Nah, it'll never happen.

[JJDrakken]

I see it as this: If you got melee weapon or even a gun of some sort. It's Natural to me. Takes training and natural skill to use such items effective like.

Also if you do an Alien Race or Race from another dimension that evolved with some abilities.  That can be considered Natural as well.

 

(While both those options can be also be Tech or Mutant)

 

While Tech I see it more like Traps, or Power Armor or Special Gauntlets, Belt, etc...  That can be more Tech (or Science).  A lot Origin stuff can be easily inter changeable.   Magic being the only one that sticks out on it's own over all.

[Octogoat]

Gadgets = tech hero examples include: Batman, green arrow, Doctor who (Sonic screwdriver)

 

Science heroes include: hulk, Spider-Man, tmnt

 

Mutant heroes include: X-Men, Deadpool

 

Magic: zatanna, spawn

 

Natural: superman, iron fist

[the1egend1ives]

If this is a question regarding what origin you should take, Technology or Natural, a handy guide I like to follow involves looking at Single-Origin and Dual-Origin enhancements and asking myself what makes the most sense ICly for this character to equip. SOs and DOs have a short bio about what they are, so you can craft some head-canon around them, and they can inform you about the origin of your character.

 

For Natural characters, you can have the option of Gadgets (Natural/Technology), Relics (Natural/Magic), and Techniques (Pure Natural). If all of these sound like something your character has on their belt, I would say that you're a Natural origin.

 

For Technology characters, you can have the option of Inventions (Science/Technology), Gadgets (Natural/Technology), and Cybernetics (Pure Technology), so if your character has all these in their repertoire, go with a Technology Origin.

 

If we were going to go with Batman as an example, he's clearly known for his fighting style, as well as his gadgets, and he has been known to carry magical artifacts. He doesn't really use inventions or cybernetics. What are inventions or cybernetics? To find out, we can look at the description of any invention DO or cybernetic IO and find out what it says. Here's an example of a cybernetic.

 

Quote

BENDEDICT TECH ADV. TARGETING EYE

A replacement cybernetic eyeball that hooks directly into the hand-eye reflex center of the brain.

 

Here's an example of an invention

Quote

BIOREGENERATOR

Pat. Num. 10,451397,452. The bioregenerator emits signals that stimulate the target's immune system.

 

Why does this guide work? Because the only thing that your origin does for you is decide what kinds of enhancements you can use. Beyond that, origin serves no other purpose. I like to follow the same train of thought as the game's creators, so I use the SO/DO method.

Edited 20 hours ago by the1egend1ives

[Stormwalker]

The way I see it is this.  What is it that makes you "super"?

 

My Dual Pistols/Martial blaster villainess Gun Bunny uses guns.  But she could pick up any guns and use them and be super.  Or, for that matter, she could pick up throwing knives and use those and she would still be super.  The guns are not what makes her super.  What makes her super are her mutant powers which enable her to use those guns (and her body, see her secondary) with superhuman grace, speed, and precision.  Thus, she is a Mutation origin, not Technology.

 

My Super Strength/Invulnerability Tanker heroine Sylvie Stardrive designed and built her own power armor.  It grants her superhuman strength and durability, as well as some onboard weapons.  While her own intelligence certainly IS super, the way she applies that intelligence to combat is largely through the Technology that she designs and builds.  If you take away her powersuit, she is only slightly more capable in combat than an average citizen (she does have a little bit of unarmed combat skill that she has learned in order to USE the powersuit... but she's definitely not a hero-level martial artist).  Thus, she is a Technology origin, not a Natural.

 

My Martial Arts/Super Reflexes Scrapper heroine Liberty Star is a very talented martial artist.  She makes use of a few gadgets in her hero work (my justification for her travel power is that she has a motorcycle, and she has a utility belt which is not as well stocked as Batman's but gives her a few tricks up her sleeve.  Yes, she uses some technology in her work, but what makes her "super" is her intense training in martial arts.  She's a Natural, not Tech.

 

As I noted in my previous post, Batman is a Natural.  He's a Natural because, for all that he uses Technology, he would still be Batman without that technology.  What makes him "super" is his martial arts prowess and his detective skills.  The Batcomputer does not make him the World's Greatest Detective.  It just helps him apply his skills more efficiently.  Batarangs don't make him an exceptional crimefighter.  They're just give him additional options to deal with changing situations.  Batman wouldn't be as effective without his technology as he is with it, but he would still be Batman.

 

Azbats, on the other hand, viewed "more technology" as the answer to each problem he ran into during his time as Batman.  When he struggled in a fight, what was his answer?  Upgrade the suit.  Time and time again, until he was walking around in something just short of powered armor.

 

Azbats: "My suit is both armor and weapon!"

Batman: "And you rely on it far too much."

 

Thus, Azbats was Technology origin.

[BasiliskXVIII]

2 hours ago, the1egend1ives said:

If this is a question regarding what origin you should take, Technology or Natural, a handy guide I like to follow involves looking at Single-Origin and Dual-Origin enhancements and asking myself what makes the most sense ICly for this character to equip. SOs and DOs have a short bio about what they are, so you can craft some head-canon around them, and they can inform you about the origin of your character.

 

For Natural characters, you can have the option of Gadgets (Natural/Technology), Relics (Natural/Magic), and Techniques (Pure Natural). If all of these sound like something your character has on their belt, I would say that you're a Natural origin.

 

For Technology characters, you can have the option of Inventions (Science/Technology), Gadgets (Natural/Technology), and Cybernetics (Pure Technology), so if your character has all these in their repertoire, go with a Technology Origin.

 

If we were going to go with Batman as an example, he's clearly known for his fighting style, as well as his gadgets, and he has been known to carry magical artifacts. He doesn't really use inventions or cybernetics. What are inventions or cybernetics? To find out, we can look at the description of any invention DO or cybernetic IO and find out what it says. Here's an example of a cybernetic.

 

 

Here's an example of an invention

 

Why does this guide work? Because the only thing that your origin does for you is decide what kinds of enhancements you can use. Beyond that, origin serves no other purpose. I like to follow the same train of thought as the game's creators, so I use the SO/DO method.

 

The problem with this is that when you start looking at SOs, there's some really extreme things that you're supposedly doing to yourself. There's a lot of tech-based heroes who aren't cybernetically enhancing themselves. You tell a reasonable Science-origin character that he should irradiate himself with Radon to boost his defensive abilities, or Alpha particles to make himself faster, then they will, very justifiably, treat you like a lunatic. And while my tech characters may be comfortable replacing an eye that's been lost with a cybernetic, I doubt many would go under the knife for the sake of being more accurate.

[Stormwalker]

4 hours ago, BasiliskXVIII said:

 

The problem with this is that when you start looking at SOs, there's some really extreme things that you're supposedly doing to yourself. There's a lot of tech-based heroes who aren't cybernetically enhancing themselves. You tell a reasonable Science-origin character that he should irradiate himself with Radon to boost his defensive abilities, or Alpha particles to make himself faster, then they will, very justifiably, treat you like a lunatic. And while my tech characters may be comfortable replacing an eye that's been lost with a cybernetic, I doubt many would go under the knife for the sake of being more accurate.

 

Honestly, the enhancement system is not something that should be examined too closely.  It isn't meant to be examined that closely.  They just threw some things out there that are examples of theme.

 

I've never once met a single City of Heroes roleplayer - and on Live I played on Virtue and was an active roleplayer myself - who actually took the enhancements they slot as being meaningful to their character in any way. shape or form.

 

My technology origin Street Justice/Willpower scrapper gets her power from a nanite swarm that circulates in her bloodstream.  That is about as Techology origin as you can possibly get.  She does not have ANY cyberware.  She just has nanites.

 

To put this in another sense... one of my Natural origin characters, the aforementioned Liberty Star, currently has several "Military Speed" enhancements slotted.  She's a 17-year-old girl.  She's not in the military.  She's never had any military training.  She's a high-school student.  That enhancement name is completely irrelevant to her.  It's just named according to a "Natural" theme.

 

And I promise you NONE of my science origin characters are willfully irradiating themselves.  Even the ones who actually did get their powers by accidentally irradiating themselves in some way or another!

 

Edited 12 hours ago by Stormwalker

[Techwright]

13 hours ago, Octogoat said:

Mutant heroes include: X-Men, Deadpool

 

Minor detail:  Comic Deadpool is a mutate, not a mutant.  Science types messed with Wolverine DNA, injected Wade with the results and... badda-bing, badda-boom... Deadpool was born.  So the original take on Deadpool would classify him as Science Origin.  Movie Deadpool, though, had most of that happen, but the serum they gave him awoke a latent mutation in him.  So Movie Deadpool would be a mutant, as he had it since birth, just dormant.

 

5 hours ago, BasiliskXVIII said:

 

The problem with this is that when you start looking at SOs, there's some really extreme things that you're supposedly doing to yourself. There's a lot of tech-based heroes who aren't cybernetically enhancing themselves. You tell a reasonable Science-origin character that he should irradiate himself with Radon to boost his defensive abilities, or Alpha particles to make himself faster, then they will, very justifiably, treat you like a lunatic. And while my tech characters may be comfortable replacing an eye that's been lost with a cybernetic, I doubt many would go under the knife for the sake of being more accurate.

It is in part because of this that I have a long-standing wish that we'd just simplify SO enhancements: drop the complex names and backstories for the enhancements, keep the origin ring around the enhancement, switch to the simple color scheme with a clear, simple icon representing the origin, and a plain-Jane, but crystal-clear title like "Tech: Damage" or "Mutant: Accuracy".  Let the player write the story around the enhancement, rather than force a concept on their RP character that isn't consistent with what they've designed.

[BasiliskXVIII]

1 hour ago, Techwright said:

It is in part because of this that I have a long-standing wish that we'd just simplify SO enhancements: drop the complex names and backstories for the enhancements, keep the origin ring around the enhancement, switch to the simple color scheme with a clear, simple icon representing the origin, and a plain-Jane, but crystal-clear title like "Tech: Damage" or "Mutant: Accuracy".  Let the player write the story around the enhancement, rather than force a concept on their RP character that isn't consistent with what they've designed.

If I'm honest, I almost kinda wish that they'd break down the way that origin ties to the enhancements altogether. I kind of hate that I feel this way, because I do feel like Origin should be relevant at least in part, and the SOs are one remaining vestige of this remaining in the game. But basically the only thing it's really contributing is determining how annoying it is to buy SOs if you go to IP. I do like the thought that magic-type characters check out the neat baubles and charms in the magic shop and that techy characters visit the Radio Shack for the bits and bobs that they need for an improvement to their toys, because that's a very comic-y thing to do. But at the same time, a magic origin "Fury of Joule" and a tech origin "Portacio Ind Internal Munitions" are the same thing, given that as Stormwalker said, nobody pays that much attention to the enhancements they're slotting anyway. If all stores just sold a Damage Enhancement equivalent to an SO (don't really know what to call it given that it wouldn't be tied to an "origin." AO, maybe? All Origin?) and you could decide whether you want to pick it up from the Magic shop or the Mutant shop, it seems like that would eliminate an annoyance with SOs.

[Stormwalker]

1 hour ago, Techwright said:

Minor detail:  Comic Deadpool is a mutate, not a mutant.  Science types messed with Wolverine DNA, injected Wade with the results and... badda-bing, badda-boom... Deadpool was born.  So the original take on Deadpool would classify him as Science Origin.  Movie Deadpool, though, had most of that happen, but the serum they gave him awoke a latent mutation in him.  So Movie Deadpool would be a mutant, as he had it since birth, just dormant.

 

It is in part because of this that I have a long-standing wish that we'd just simplify SO enhancements: drop the complex names and backstories for the enhancements, keep the origin ring around the enhancement, switch to the simple color scheme with a clear, simple icon representing the origin, and a plain-Jane, but crystal-clear title like "Tech: Damage" or "Mutant: Accuracy".  Let the player write the story around the enhancement, rather than force a concept on their RP character that isn't consistent with what they've designed.

 

Most roleplayers I've played with cheerfully ignore the enhancement system entirely from an in-character perspective.  Myself included.

 

Honestly, the idea of "enhancing" individual powers is one that is incompatible with a lot of character concepts anyway, because their "powers" in-game are not separate things at all.  They're different techniques to employ a single power. 

 

My Energy blaster, for example, doesn't think about  "Power Bolt" and "Power Blast" being things at all.  To her, it's really just a question of how much power she focuses into the blast, how tightly she focuses it, and for how long.  

 

For that matter, the whole concept of "enhancing" her powers is kind of foreign to her, too.  All of her efforts into improving her use of her powers have been in the area of learning to moderate and control them more effectively.  Which is to say, she's continually working to get better at hitting things with precisely the right amount of force (which is usually less, not more!)  And that is largely a matter of practice.

 

Generally, to me on an in-character basis, Enhancements don't exist.

Edited 10 hours ago by Stormwalker

[the1egend1ives]

4 hours ago, Stormwalker said:

 

Honestly, the enhancement system is not something that should be examined too closely.  It isn't meant to be examined that closely.  They just threw some things out there that are examples of theme.

 

I've never once met a single City of Heroes roleplayer - and on Live I played on Virtue and was an active roleplayer myself - who actually took the enhancements they slot as being meaningful to their character in any way. shape or form.

 

My technology origin Street Justice/Willpower scrapper gets her power from a nanite swarm that circulates in her bloodstream.  That is about as Techology origin as you can possibly get.  She does not have ANY cyberware.  She just has nanites.

 

To put this in another sense... one of my Natural origin characters, the aforementioned Liberty Star, currently has several "Military Speed" enhancements slotted.  She's a 17-year-old girl.  She's not in the military.  She's never had any military training.  She's a high-school student.  That enhancement name is completely irrelevant to her.  It's just named according to a "Natural" theme.

 

And I promise you NONE of my science origin characters are willfully irradiating themselves.  Even the ones who actually did get their powers by accidentally irradiating themselves in some way or another!

 

 

I think you're misreading what I'm suggesting. I'm not saying you should roleplay your character having a cybernetic eye if she slots the +ACC enhancement. I'm saying that that the SO/DO system can be followed as a baseline to understand the difference between each origin. A character like IRON MAN would be more likely to have a cybernetics upgrade than DOCTOR STRANGE, who would be more likely to use magic relics than SPIDER-MAN or HULK, who are both science-origin because they were exposed to radiation.

Using your technology-origin scrapper as an example, many of the single-origin tech enhancements ARE nanites in the bloodstream. She follows the baseline that the SO/DO system gives us.

 

I don't much about Liberty Star's powers/background, but I'm guessing she has some kind of training to be a natural superhero in Paragon City. Even it's not from time spent in the military. I think you're caught in the semantics of the naming convention. Military training, or beginner martial arts, it's all training. That's the idea behind a natural origin. Even guys like Superman, who are natural by being from another planet, get their training from being experienced superheroes.

 

 

 

Edited 8 hours ago by the1egend1ives