PB and WS changes?

[UltraAlt]

1 hour ago, Galactiman said:

There is no official source for the definition of the word "punchvoke"

 

Whatever.

 

And, yes, based on how you were using the term, I did say it wasn't Gauntlet.

 

The wiki is about as official as we get. It says that it is a term used to refer to gauntlet.

The wiki is more official than you are.

 

I'm done with this conversation.

 

[Maelwys]

2 hours ago, Galactiman said:

There is no official source for the definition of the word "punchvoke"

 

FWIW, whenever I was combing through patch notes a few topics ago I did come across this:

 

Quote

Brute PunchVoke is now also applied via a global proc.

 

I always considered Punchvoke to be the name of a mechanic (whenever a taunt effect triggers on activating attacks) rather than tied to a specific AT's inherent. So IMO Tankers and Brutes and Kheldian Dwarfs all get it. I know the Wiki claims Brute's is called "Pokevoke" but I haven't heard anyone actually use that term seriously since circa issue 7.

[Galactiman]

49 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

The wiki is about as official as we get. It says that it is a term used to refer to gauntlet.

The wiki is more official than you are.

 

The wiki is completely unofficial. From the home page of the wiki:

 

Quote

Welcome to the Unofficial Homecoming Wiki

 

Unless it cites an official source anything on there is no more official than me, you, or anyone else.

 

However, from the official Homecoming Issue 26 page 4 patch notes:

 

Quote

Brute PunchVoke is now also applied via a global proc.

• Any power that either inflicts damage or takes accuracy enhancements will trigger PunchVoke.

 

So at the very least the Homecoming devs, which is about as official as we get, refer to attacks that taunt as "PunchVoke."

 

But again, this is pedantic and irrelevant to your ultimate point that Dwarfs shouldn't have Taunt or additional threat added to their attacks, to which I responded they already do.

[tidge]

Paragon city has become entirely too 'voke.

[Whitest Light]

Reading through this thread, it touches on a lot of things that I are forgotten about Kheldians, namely they were meant to be a "Hard Mode" AT only available after you got a toon to 50 (back in Issue 3). Essentially, you had to have the fundamentals of the game down before even attempting them and they were intended to be much weaker solo. However, you started with travel powers (when you really didn't get any until Level 14) and had access to forms that outclassed other ATs at the time they were available. All of this was before Epic/Patron Power Pools, IOs/Set bonuses, Incarnate powers, etc. In short, Kheldians have basically stayed the same since Issue 3 (outside of universal changes to all ATs) and the game passed them by.

 

The original intent for HEATs was team play. Kheldians could solo but would give up a ton of bonuses to do so. Cosmic Balance and Dark Sustenance made them extremely strong when on large teams, especially early on when +30-40% damage meant you were out-damaging Blasters and Scrappers at the same level. Likewise, PBs morphed into whatever the team lacked so they could fill in as a Tank or damage-dealer if the team lacked them. WSs doubled-down on the team's strengths. All of this was well and good until every other AT had access to shore up their weaknesses. Epic Power Pools and Incarnate powers made squishy characters much less squishy and non-offensive characters much more damage. Versatility, the Kheldian's bread-and-butter, became available to everyone over the years. When CoV came around and introduced VEATs, you can tell the Devs learned their lesson. They're much more offensive, less reliant on gimmicks and are still team-friendly without giving up solo'ing ability. The only difference is that their specialization comes as a irrevocable choice as you level up rather than having access to forms like the Kheldians.

 

What we're left with now is are a pair of ATs that are simply outmoded. That isn't to say they can't be fun to play. I still think my PB is the most fun I've had in CoH, but the amount of work I have to put into it (both with power planning/slotting and actual tactics in-game) and still get passed by many other ATs doesn't feel "fair." Personally, I think the Epic ATs should have the highest ceiling of all ATs, if played right. If you have to switch forms, get good positioning, and utilize all the myriad of powers that they have, they should do things that no other AT can boast. As it stands, they're poorer versions of existing ATs, especially in the damage department. The changeling exploit is the only thing keeping them competitive but it is both divisive and was never the original intent of the AT. 

 

With the history lesson out of the way, I'm of the opinion that Kheldians need a clearer identity. Their original purpose and design intent just doesn't mesh well with the current game, or to put it another way, they were designed with a totally different game in mind. Gone are the days where the first 20 levels were a slog and Go. Hunt. Kill Skulls. was the way to power through the early part of the game. Travel powers at level 1 isn't special anymore. Not having access to Epic Power Pools isn't necessarily a good thing. Forms requiring their own slotting is archaic. Some of the original complaints about form-switching have been addressed, like toggles staying on, but not having access to click powers in forms has been a perennial issue. Personally, I think the revamp should incentivize form switching in a way that makes Kheldians more competitive than their counterparts. More a high-risk, high-reward situation. They're "Epic" for a reason.

 

I can only speak from the Peacebringer side of the house with any eloquence but here are my specific suggestions:

 

Cosmic Balance/Dark Sustenance: The original intent of these Inherents was a good idea but it doesn't scale into endgame well. As soon as you get Dwarf or Light Form, your resistances (except for Psi) are going to be capped so teaming with certain ATs does you almost no good. Getting more damage is nice but unless you specifically tailor a team to your liking, it will likely never be more more than +40-60%. Finally the mez protection is needed but you can't guarantee you'll get the right teammates to trigger it (a stopgap for one of the shields is listed below). Instead of needing specific ATs, just make every teammate provide a small buff to core stats that Kheldians tend to lack: +1 Mag Mez Protection and +3.5% Defense. 

 

Next, make the Inherent incentivize form switching as core gameplay mechanic for these ATs, just not in a Changling sort of way. I'll outline how I see it for each AT:

 

Peacebringers: Prefer to stay in a single form for longer durations. Attacks on enemies generate a Fury-like damage bonus that increases the longer you're in a given form (Human, Nova, Dwarf). Each form has its own independent damage bonus based on how many teammates you have. Solo, it is capped at 25% per form (total of +75% damage). So, Human Form has a +25% modifier, Nova has a +25% modifier, and Dwarf has a +25% modifier that add to the total damage modifier affecting your character. Each team member raises this by 5% per form and raises bonus generation by commensurate level, meaning that an 8-person team can raise the max damage of a PB by 180% (if the PB uses the forms correctly). PBs need anywhere between 5-10 attacks (stronger attacks generate more) in a given form to cap it and the bonus lasts 15 seconds from the last attack in that form unless the bonus reaches its the cap for that form, which causes that capped amount to be "locked in" regardless of form for 30 seconds. Once capped, moving onto the next form and attacking, pauses this timer, however, and allows you to stack the next form's bonus on top. If all 3 forms max out their respective bonus, it locks the max bonus for 1 minute regardless of form before needing to be repeated. Not using all three forms limits both the max damage and the duration of the bonus. (Note that the bonus damage does not trigger on non-enemy attacks or enemies that wouldn't give you XP/Inf. You can't just do a bunch of attacks to pre-game the mechanic and then go in. You have to hit stuff. Also, the bonus damage generated by this Inherent can go beyond the normal damage cap.)

 

Warshades: Prefer to switch forms frequently. Like PBs, attacks generate a damage bonus but each attack generates more. It only takes 3-4 attacks in a given form before it no longer generates more. Switching to any other form and attacking pauses the 10 second timer and allows additional bonus damage to generate. Warshades do not have form-specific caps but instead simply have a max cap of 75% (solo) and 180% (8-player team) that lasts 1 minute once achieved. Each attack also generates more bonus damage than an equivalent PB. They can more easily "Bi-Form" since the bonus isn't tied to any form in particular. In general, they generate this bonus quicker than PBs but can also lose it more easily if they run out of enemies to attack.

 

If all that seems convoluted, I get it but the point is to highlight the shapeshifting nature of the AT. The more you use this core feature, the more damage you do. It also incentivizes being on a team. The specifics can change, of course, but I see this as an answer to the Changling exploit in a better, more refined way that fits the design premise of the AT. It also addresses one of the chief complaints of these ATs, namely lack of damage in the endgame. These changes would require HEAT players to manage their forms more and have a deeper understanding of their AT than just point-and-click but it raises the ceilings on the ATs if you're willing to put in the work and orchestrate the dance of death it requires.

 

Nova/Dwarf: I don't even know if this is technically possible (from a coding perspective) but forcing an AT to slot/enhance the same power across two forms is archaic. Here is my thought, though somewhat radical: make Nova and Dwarf Inherent powers, unlocked at 6 and 20 respectively. It saves two power slots and makes all Kheldians "Tri-Form" by default so and it's easier to balance around since it's baked into the AT. Next, consolidate duplicate powers. Human Proton Scatter and Nova Scatter have different stats but why? Make them the same power and if you choose Proton Scatter as a Human, the Nova power is what is used in Human Form (at the Human Form modifier). In general, if a form power and a human power overlap, take the stronger of the two and apply it to both forms. There's just no reason to be forced to double-up on enhancements. (In the case of Warshade Mires, I know there is a benefit to the doubling  but I'll let WS players weigh-in on that.)

 

Light Form, Inner Light, Conserve Energy, Essence Boost, and Reform Essence should be should also be available regardless of form. Dwarf Sublimation and Reform Essence should also be rolled into a single power on the same cooldown. Pool Power click powers (namely Hasten) could also be made available but I'd understand if that was left out.

 

Incandescent Strike: 3.3 second animation time is entirely too long. Total Focus was reduced to 2.5. Please update the animation speed.

 

Photon Seekers: Spawns two Seekers with 120 second lifespan and 300 second recharge. Default behavior is stay near the player and shoot Gleaming/Nova Bolts and Luminous/Nova Blast attacks. In the last 15 seconds of their life, they will seek out the nearest enemy and explode in a small AoE, dealing Energy damage (50% more per Seeker than current). This suicidal behavior can also be triggered early by placing them in Attack mode. If they successfully detonate (not merely killed) in the first 30 seconds of their life, they do double damage. The point of this change is to make PB pets more like actual pets while also increasing single-target damage. It also gives the player a choice: a sudden instant damage on par with a nuke or greater damage over time by allowing them to attack per normal. 

 

Quantum/Twilight Shield: Adds the same level of Mez Protection as Light Form (just over Mag 3). Enough to get by but not nearly on par with proper status protection powers. Gives Human Form earlier access to Mez Protection prior to Dwarf and Light Form/Eclipse.

[FlammeFatale]

I think the number one improvement warshades need is less clicks. 

 

Let's compare a blaster to a warshade. How do they clear a spawn of all minions and lieutenants, with only the two bosses left?

 

Energy/Energy Blaster:

Build-up --> Aim --> Nova

A total of 3 clicks and 5.808 seconds, of which 3.168 is spent in danger, inside the mob.

 

Warshade:

Eclipse --> Dwarf --> Dwarf Mire --> Human --> Sunless Mire --> Quasar --> Target a mob --> Unchain Essence (for instance).

 A total of 8 clicks and 11.352 seconds, all of which are spent in danger, inside the mob.

If you do not cancel the dwarf animation you have to add 1.167 seconds, for a grand total of 12.519 seconds + the small time spent targetting after Quasar.

 

Conclusion: it takes at least twice as much time and 5 more clicks, to inflict similar damage with my warshade as with my blaster.

 

 

 

[Warshades]

23 hours ago, Whitest Light said:

Peacebringers: Prefer to stay in a single form for longer durations. Attacks on enemies generate a Fury-like damage bonus that increases the longer you're in a given form (Human, Nova, Dwarf). Each form has its own independent damage bonus based on how many teammates you have. Solo, it is capped at 25% per form (total of +75% damage). So, Human Form has a +25% modifier, Nova has a +25% modifier, and Dwarf has a +25% modifier that add to the total damage modifier affecting your character. Each team member raises this by 5% per form and raises bonus generation by commensurate level, meaning that an 8-person team can raise the max damage of a PB by 180% (if the PB uses the forms correctly). PBs need anywhere between 5-10 attacks (stronger attacks generate more) in a given form to cap it and the bonus lasts 15 seconds from the last attack in that form unless the bonus reaches its the cap for that form, which causes that capped amount to be "locked in" regardless of form for 30 seconds. Once capped, moving onto the next form and attacking, pauses this timer, however, and allows you to stack the next form's bonus on top. If all 3 forms max out their respective bonus, it locks the max bonus for 1 minute regardless of form before needing to be repeated. Not using all three forms limits both the max damage and the duration of the bonus. (Note that the bonus damage does not trigger on non-enemy attacks or enemies that wouldn't give you XP/Inf. You can't just do a bunch of attacks to pre-game the mechanic and then go in. You have to hit stuff. Also, the bonus damage generated by this Inherent can go beyond the normal damage cap.)

 

Warshades: Prefer to switch forms frequently. Like PBs, attacks generate a damage bonus but each attack generates more. It only takes 3-4 attacks in a given form before it no longer generates more. Switching to any other form and attacking pauses the 10 second timer and allows additional bonus damage to generate. Warshades do not have form-specific caps but instead simply have a max cap of 75% (solo) and 180% (8-player team) that lasts 1 minute once achieved. Each attack also generates more bonus damage than an equivalent PB. They can more easily "Bi-Form" since the bonus isn't tied to any form in particular. In general, they generate this bonus quicker than PBs but can also lose it more easily if they run out of enemies to attack.

 

If all that seems convoluted, I get it but the point is to highlight the shapeshifting nature of the AT. The more you use this core feature, the more damage you do. It also incentivizes being on a team. The specifics can change, of course, but I see this as an answer to the Changling exploit in a better, more refined way that fits the design premise of the AT. It also addresses one of the chief complaints of these ATs, namely lack of damage in the endgame. These changes would require HEAT players to manage their forms more and have a deeper understanding of their AT than just point-and-click but it raises the ceilings on the ATs if you're willing to put in the work and orchestrate the dance of death it requires.

 

I like a lot of the ideas you suggested in general, but I do have a slight issue with this one. Doing such a change once again bottlenecks players into a specific playstyle, constant shapeshifting to make the WS most effective or avoiding doing so with the PB to maximize their damage. The most fun that I've had playing a WS was as a mostly human build that would only shapeshift into Dwarf to double up on Mire while being built for perma Eclipse and taking advantage of Inky Aspect and Gravitic Emanation to stun lock mobs, including bosses. It's a very control centric build but is very effective at handling large mobs as long as they don't have some form of mez protection. I think having diversity on if you want to shapeshift or not as a kheldian while still remaining highly effective would be better.

 

I am all for incentivizing using the forms, just not at the expanse of not doing so resulting in significantly subpar performance. There should be legitimate tradeoffs, using Nova form should provide higher damage output than staying fully human or using Dwarf, just not to the point that deciding to stay in one form all the time or fully human results in them playing and performing as they currently are because they can't obtain the buffs without shifting. Rather than trying to layer more damage buffs in one way or another, I'd rather have an overhaul on the base damage scale numbers. Kheldians (particularly human form) suffer from having low ranged and melee damage scale numbers along with having low damage buff caps. Meanwhile, VEATs are sitting nice and comfy with their scale modifier at 1 for both ranged and melee attacks. https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Damage#Damage_Scale

 

One of the biggest issues I have with the forms themselves are the lack of powers that you can use while in them. While I do get that this is done in order for the AT to embrace shapeshifting and changing forms, this should really be expanded and allow more powers from the primary/secondary to be usable while shapeshifted. 

 

One thing that could be done to add some more sustainability and make it more fun to play is allowing additional powers to be usable from human forms. Allow Warshades to use Gravity Well, Stygian Circle, and Unchain Essence while in Dwarf form, maybe even Dark Extraction also. This will provide some much needed AoE damage, better ST attack chain, and some additional layer of heals/end recovery. Imo, Orbiting Death/Inky Asapect should also be usable in Dwarf form, there's no reason not to have a PBAoE aura if the point of Dwarf mode is to be a pseudo tank. PB Dwarf could gain access to Essence Boost, Incandescent Strike or Radiant Strike, Inner Light, and perhaps Photon Seekers. 

 

23 hours ago, Whitest Light said:

Finally the mez protection is needed but you can't guarantee you'll get the right teammates to trigger it (a stopgap for one of the shields is listed below). Instead of needing specific ATs, just make every teammate provide a small buff to core stats that Kheldians tend to lack: +1 Mag Mez Protection and +3.5% Defense. 

 

As you pointed out, the game vastly is different from when Kheldians were released to what it is now. There's no need to put something as important as mez protection to be tied down to teaming, especially if someone wants to solo play through story arcs and such. It really should not be that difficult to add a mez protection toggle/passive, or else add a mez protection function to one of the existing powers besides Dwarf form. One of the core features of any "armor" set AT (and I use armor set loosely here) is that they gain a toggle that provides mez protection. Kheldians do as well, but it unfortunately is tied to a transformation form shift power which may not work for those wanting to play a human only kheldian build (not to mention that staying in Dwarf form is very limiting in terms of what powers they currently have access to and how much they can contribute while in Dwarf). Maybe change the inherent from providing mez protection to boosting mez duration of powers (WS would benefit more from this than PB). Ideally, swap the additional resist buffs from certain ATs to instead give defense buffs. Kheldians are already a resist based armor sets, adding on more to it is a wasted buff whereas they'd actually benefit some from having higher defense even if it only reduces the initial alpha strike damage that they take because defense debuffs will lower it afterwards.

 

23 hours ago, Whitest Light said:

In the case of Warshade Mires, I know there is a benefit to the doubling  but I'll let WS players weigh-in on that

 

There's a rather easy work around. Just increase the damage buff provided by Mire so that it effectively works like using Mire twice. Perhaps a bit lower damage buff total since you'd only need to use 1 power. I'd probably prefer the human version with the longer buff duration/cooldown so that it doesn't have to refreshed often when it relies on mob sizes that may not be there anymore after initial burst hits kill off minions and lts. The one issue with this is that WS Dwarf form does make use of Mire not only as a buff but as an AoE attack spam. Consolidating them into 1 power, especially if using the longer buff duration/recharge of the human form, will hinder the AoE damage they have access to if the goal is to make the forms more useful to stay shapeshifted into.

 

23 hours ago, Whitest Light said:

Incandescent Strike: 3.3 second animation time is entirely too long. Total Focus was reduced to 2.5. Please update the animation speed.

 

Yes, this needs to happen. Along those lines, the animation time of Extract Essence/Unchain Essence could use a reduction, both take a really long time.

[Major_Decoy]

On 2/4/2025 at 11:07 AM, Captain Fabulous said:

They were always designed to be a jack of all trades, master of none. A little bit Blaster, a little bit Tank, and a little bit Sentinel all in one AT.

That might have been the intent, but they are not a jack of all trades. They have about as much control has a Tank.

 

The Nova form is kind of a blaster, the Dwarf kind of a tank, but they don't really try to be controllers or defenders. Arguably Tankers are better at being defenders and controllers because they actually get access to controls and debuffs via ancillary and patron power pools.

 

I will say that the Warshades actually do have good recharge slows, but Peacebringers just get defense debuffs, which aren't as helpful.

 

I think Kheldians can get better at control and debuffing without threatening controllers and defenders.

 

Replace Peacebringer's Glowing Touch with a luminous themed Enervating Field or Lingering Radiation. 

Replace Warshade's Nebulous Form with an Umbral themed Tar Patch or Darkest Night.

 

In both sets, choose one of the other blasts in the set and add a hold so that both Kheldians have access to a ranged hold.

 

Edit: the more I think about it, I think that kheldians can have one team buff and one debuff without stepping on corruptor's toes.

 

Add a "Grant Cover" type effect to Warshade's Shadow Cloak and give it both some DDR (maybe 8-12%) and slow resist 20%.

Turn Peacebringer's Conserve Energy into a luminous themed Recovery Aura that gives some endurance resistance and recovery resistance.

Edited 12 hours ago by Major_Decoy

[Black_Assassin]

6 hours ago, Warshades said:

The one issue with this is that WS Dwarf form does make use of Mire not only as a buff but as an AoE attack spam. Consolidating them into 1 power, especially if using the longer buff duration/recharge of the human form, will hinder the AoE damage they have access to if the goal is to make the forms more useful to stay shapeshifted into.

 

Easy Fix is change the Dwarf Mire to an Engulfing Darkness type purple clone. It is currently a fast recharging AOE Proc nuke that happens to also boost your damage and to-hit, so as long as the stats on the power allow for similar AOE output then it doesn't really matter if this gets changed (assuming Sunless Mire gets its stats changed to now accommodate the loss of dwarf mire)

[Captain Fabulous]

16 hours ago, Major_Decoy said:

That might have been the intent, but they are not a jack of all trades. They have about as much control has a Tank.

 

The Nova form is kind of a blaster, the Dwarf kind of a tank, but they don't really try to be controllers or defenders. Arguably Tankers are better at being defenders and controllers because they actually get access to controls and debuffs via ancillary and patron power pools.

 

I will say that the Warshades actually do have good recharge slows, but Peacebringers just get defense debuffs, which aren't as helpful.

 

I think Kheldians can get better at control and debuffing without threatening controllers and defenders.

 

Replace Peacebringer's Glowing Touch with a luminous themed Enervating Field or Lingering Radiation. 

Replace Warshade's Nebulous Form with an Umbral themed Tar Patch or Darkest Night.

 

In both sets, choose one of the other blasts in the set and add a hold so that both Kheldians have access to a ranged hold.

 

Edit: the more I think about it, I think that kheldians can have one team buff and one debuff without stepping on corruptor's toes.

 

Add a "Grant Cover" type effect to Warshade's Shadow Cloak and give it both some DDR (maybe 8-12%) and slow resist 20%.

Turn Peacebringer's Conserve Energy into a luminous themed Recovery Aura that gives some endurance resistance and recovery resistance.

Peacebringers get a PBAoE disorient and a single target heal. Warshades have a single target hold, a single target immobilize, a cone disorient, a targeted AoE disorient, and a PBAoE disorient toggle. All of which are in the realms of Controllers and Defenders.

[Major_Decoy]

3 hours ago, Captain Fabulous said:

Peacebringers get a PBAoE disorient and a single target heal. Warshades have a single target hold, a single target immobilize, a cone disorient, a targeted AoE disorient, and a PBAoE disorient toggle. All of which are in the realms of Controllers and Defenders.

Peacebringers also get a single target melee hold and a lot of knockback. Knockback is actually a pretty good control. They're fairly comparable to a Super Strength Tank, which gets Knockback, a PBAoE disorient, and a melee hold. Or a Stone Tank that gets knockback, a Targeted AoE Disorient, and a melee Hold.

 

The PBAoE disorient toggle can also be found on Dark Armour. A targeted AoE disorient can be found on Stone Melee, None of these are controller or defender sets.

 

I don't feel like one ranged heal and defense debuffing is really enough of a foot into "I know a little about being a defender" unless you're going to say that a Shield Tank and a Radiation Tank are jacks of all trades because they get a defense aura and a PBAoE heal respectively. And tanks can also get Tar Patch, Darknest Night, or Melt Armour. 

 

If I was recruiting support for a team and got an Radiation/Pain Domination Corruptor who only took Soothe, I would feel like I didn't really get a support character. This is not to say that Glowing Touch cannot be helpful, I'm sure it has its uses. I just know that when I play defenders I don't really find myself using heals very often.

 

What I consider key to controlling is being able to stack hard controls on a boss and lock them down. This could be done with Disorient, Hold, or Confusion, but Incandescent Strike and Gravity Well are both holds so it'd make more sense to add a second hold to both sets. (it can also be done with knock-down, but that relies much more on player skill and, depending on knock-down percentages, player luck)

 

The defense debuffs and slows are pretty nice as secondary effects to attacks. On comparable attacks, like Gleaming Bolt and Neutrino Bolt, Blasters get -7% defense, Peacebringers get -9%, and Corruptors get -10%, and that seems appropriate, but I still think it'd be good to give Kheldians access to a buff and a debuff each, and not just a single target heal.

Edit: To be fully frank, I trust defense debuffs a lot more when they don't require a to-hit roll. If Peacebringers had just one defense debuff that didn't require a to-hit check, I'd have fewer complaints.

Edited 6 hours ago by Major_Decoy