Phantasm Sucks

[battlewraith]

1 minute ago, Ghost said:

Why does it matter?

 

Everyone has an opinion.  Some people like to express it, while others prefer to keep it to themselves.

Neither is wright or wrong.

It probably doesn't matter. I doubt this subforum matters, it could probably go away and not really affect anything. But if you take the notion of this section seriously, then the goal is to elicit feedback from the playerbase. Not from a miniscule subset of players that habitually weigh in on suggestions. I think that subset presents a kind of orthodoxy of what they want and they discourage people from posting ideas, particularly people new to the forums. 

[arcane]

1 hour ago, battlewraith said:

they discourage people from posting ideas

Literally the only thing you’ve done in this thread, homie. 
 

I would say you’re trying far more than anyone else here to shut down discussion. “This topic is beating a dead horse” is not on the same level as “shut up and stop posting”.

Edited February 28 by arcane

[battlewraith]

5 minutes ago, arcane said:

Literally the only thing you’ve done in this thread, homie. 
 

I would say you’re trying far more than anyone else here to shut down discussion. “This topic is beating a dead horse” is not on the same level as “shut up and stop posting”.

Lol you're back! That was quick. All you're doing is popping in and misrepresenting my posts and missing the point. Again. It's almost like there's a pattern. 

Also, still waiting on your answer for the question I asked earlier homie. 

[arcane]

31 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

Lol you're back! That was quick. All you're doing is popping in and misrepresenting my posts and missing the point. Again. It's almost like there's a pattern. 

Also, still waiting on your answer for the question I asked earlier homie. 

“Enlighten us” means “Enlighten the people you’re talking to” I guess, if that’s the thing you’re so concerned about. Not sure how I’m misrepresenting you telling everyone that they shouldn’t be posting if they disagree with you, but whatever you say.

 

If I’m misunderstanding you, then maybe answer this question: what would you find acceptable *besides* (1) agreeing with you or (2) not posting? 

Edited February 28 by arcane

[battlewraith]

5 minutes ago, arcane said:

“Enlighten us” means “Enlighten the people you’re talking to” I guess, if that’s the thing you’re so concerned about. Not sure how I’m misrepresenting you telling everyone that they shouldn’t be posting if they disagree with you, but whatever you say.

Yeah you've lost the thread here. Maybe reread from the beginning and try to reflect.

[arcane]

7 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

Yeah you've lost the thread here. Maybe reread from the beginning and try to reflect.

Whatever man. I don’t need to do your homework assignment to know that:

 

(1) I have historically been okay with people being allowed to post opinions as long as they aren’t advocating censorship of other opinions.

 

(2) You have historically been okay with people being allowed to post opinions as long as they are in lockstep with your vision of what should be done with CoH.

 

We are not the same.

[battlewraith]

22 minutes ago, arcane said:

Whatever man. I don’t need to do your homework assignment to know that:

 

(1) I have historically been okay with people being allowed to post opinions as long as they aren’t advocating censorship of other opinions.

 

(2) You have historically been okay with people being allowed to post opinions as long as they are in lockstep with your vision of what should be done with CoH.

 

We are not the same.

I would never want to be the same as you, and I think you're perpetuating this and steering it towards me personally, probably to get the thread locked. If your characterization of me above were true--I post a tiny fraction of what you do. Just in terms of volume of posts it doesn't matter. If what I am describing as a dynamic here is true, then people with that attitude have turned a lot of people off to this section, and probably the forums in general.

[Wavicle]

Stick a fork in this thread GMs, it's done.

[Display Name]

I just want to know when Controllers will be allowed to control their pets.  It's embarrassing to summon it, only to have it run away!

 

Also, keep your pets away from the portals!

[Rudra]

53 minutes ago, Display Name said:

I just want to know when Controllers will be allowed to control their pets.

They won't. That takes away MM's only real advantage in pets since Controllers and Dominators get more powerful pets (in raw stats).

 

55 minutes ago, Display Name said:

It's embarrassing to summon it, only to have it run away!

MMs have this same issue. Being able to control pets won't make this change. The difference is that the MM can direct pets to focus on specific enemies rather than the pets running to whatever target they prefer, but if something will make a Controller/Domintor pet run away, it will still make MM pets run away too.

 

57 minutes ago, Display Name said:

Also, keep your pets away from the portals!

If the player moves their character away from the portals and there are no enemies there to fight, the Controller/Dominator pets will also move away, no pet control needed. And since MMs also loiter at the portals, and they have more pets, this is an everyone with pets thing.

[Display Name]

6 hours ago, Display Name said:

Also, keep your pets away from the portals!

 

5 hours ago, Rudra said:

If the player moves their character away from the portals and there are no enemies there to fight, the Controller/Dominator pets will also move away, no pet control needed. And since MMs also loiter at the portals, and they have more pets, this is an everyone with pets thing.

 

It's just a pet peeve of mine!

[Wavicle]

*Changes the name of Phantasm to Peeve*

[Riverdusk]

I'd take a bit of exception to the idea that a slight fix or buff to phantasm would make illusion OP or that it is even borderline OP now.  It is a fantastic set against small groups or AV's.  That is a very small part of the game and definitely not the current game meta which tends to be "destroy huge groups of enemies fast".   That is something illusion is definitely not particularly great at.  Everyone trots out "It solos AV's the best!".  Being really good at one niche thing doesn't make it OP, imo.

 

Fire and plant destroy it when it comes to AoE 'defeating'.

Pretty much every set out there destroys it when it comes to actual AoE control.   

It has so little hard aoe control it is hard to even set up containment with it which makes it hard to even add in some AoE damage with an epic pool.   

 

It's a great and fun set if you want to run quick solo through missions/story arcs set to low numbers or even solo TF's (set to lower numbers).  Otherwise it isn't really setting the world on fire imo.   

 

 

 

[Wavicle]

23 hours ago, Riverdusk said:

I'd take a bit of exception to the idea that a slight fix or buff to phantasm would make illusion OP or that it is even borderline OP now.  It is a fantastic set against small groups or AV's.  That is a very small part of the game and definitely not the current game meta which tends to be "destroy huge groups of enemies fast".   That is something illusion is definitely not particularly great at.  Everyone trots out "It solos AV's the best!".  Being really good at one niche thing doesn't make it OP, imo.

 

Fire and plant destroy it when it comes to AoE 'defeating'.

Pretty much every set out there destroys it when it comes to actual AoE control.   

It has so little hard aoe control it is hard to even set up containment with it which makes it hard to even add in some AoE damage with an epic pool.   

 

It's a great and fun set if you want to run quick solo through missions/story arcs set to low numbers or even solo TF's (set to lower numbers).  Otherwise it isn't really setting the world on fire imo.   

 

 

 

 

It's a set for Dominators also, where it doesn't worry about Containment, and has an additional AoE control. The PA is literally unkillable, as is the Phantasm's Decoy. It IS among the very top performers for both ATs, the points you've made may be accurate but they don't change that basic fact.

[battlewraith]

1 hour ago, Wavicle said:

 

It's a set for Dominators also, where it doesn't worry about Containment, and has an additional AoE control. The PA is literally unkillable, as is the Phantasm's Decoy. It IS among the very top performers for both ATs, the points you've made may be accurate but they don't change that basic fact.

You've been repeating that ad nauseam in this thread and it misses the point, again. It is a top performer at some niche things. It is not a powerhouse at everything and it doesn't particularly stand out in teams these days when you're burning down large groups quickly and don't particularly need PA to tank for you. 

[arcane]

“I know this control set is often doing more single target DPS than most blasters, but it doesn’t have the game’s best AoE damage too!”

 

Cherry picking a couple of scenarios where Illusion Control might not be leading the pack does not change the facts. You are wrong.

[Wavicle]

3 hours ago, battlewraith said:

You've been repeating that ad nauseam in this thread and it misses the point, again. It is a top performer at some niche things. It is not a powerhouse at everything and it doesn't particularly stand out in teams these days when you're burning down large groups quickly and don't particularly need PA to tank for you. 

 

There is only one Controller set that's good at burning down large groups quickly and it's Fire Mastery.

[battlewraith]

5 hours ago, Wavicle said:

 

There is only one Controller set that's good at burning down large groups quickly and it's Fire Mastery.

This has been brought up before, but you keep pointing to the strength of the illusion set in comparison to other controller sets. This thread was about phantasm. You have yet to make, imo, any case for the fact that giving phantasm better ai or changing it's knockback would do anything to make it more or less OP. If anything, there's been some indication that phantasm is skippable. Replace it with a better pet from an epic pool or take those slots and invest in an aoe that you can proc out.

 

I recently did an ill/sonic dom and a dark/ff controller. The controller is way better at dealing with large groups.

[arcane]

1 hour ago, battlewraith said:

This has been brought up before, but you keep pointing to the strength of the illusion set in comparison to other controller sets. This thread was about phantasm. You have yet to make, imo, any case for the fact that giving phantasm better ai or changing it's knockback would do anything to make it more or less OP. If anything, there's been some indication that phantasm is skippable. Replace it with a better pet from an epic pool or take those slots and invest in an aoe that you can proc out.

 

I recently did an ill/sonic dom and a dark/ff controller. The controller is way better at dealing with large groups.

Phantasm is a part of the Illusion Control set and must be balanced as such.

 

Literally nobody is against AI improvements.

 

The knockback is so obviously a settled issue.

 

You are free to ask for pointers on how to play your Illusion Dom better.

 

Anything else? 

[Wavicle]

3 hours ago, battlewraith said:

you keep pointing to the strength of the illusion set in comparison to other controller sets. This thread was about phantasm.

 

Because that's how the game works. Individual powers are not balanced against each other, sets are. As a set Illusion is absolutely top tier for both ATs.

 

Is Phantasm the top tier of Controller/Dominator pets? No. But that doesn't matter, because it's good enough, and the set overall is top tier.

 

Yes, the AI of all pets should be improved. Yes, Fear should be added to Containment. But neither of those are relevant to the question of whether Phantasm needs something else specific changed.

[battlewraith]

3 hours ago, arcane said:

You are free to ask for pointers on how to play your Illusion Dom better.

Sure let’s hear it. Let’s hear your pointers that are going to take my ill toons to the next level. Also provide some context for where this wisdom is appropriate—solo/teams/low level/post 50/SOs/incarnates/Hard Mode/pvp/ what exactly?

[battlewraith]

 

25 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

 

Because that's how the game works. Individual powers are not balanced against each other, sets are. As a set Illusion is absolutely top tier for both ATs.

 

Is Phantasm the top tier of Controller/Dominator pets? No. But that doesn't matter, because it's good enough, and the set overall is top tier.

 

Yes, the AI of all pets should be improved. Yes, Fear should be added to Containment. But neither of those are relevant to the question of whether Phantasm needs something else specific changed.

I suspect for both myself and the OP, this is a QOL issue. The pet is annoying to use and causes problems. You are insisting that this is a balance issue, out of what appears to be a dogma that any change must be a balance issue that involves a consideration of the balancing between different sets. I don’t agree with your framework, and I think the onus is on you too establish that a more reasonably behaved Phantasm will somehow significantly improve the set as a whole with regards to how people are doing with controllers in general. I think that would only be the case if the developers intended to pet to die a lot and be unmanageable.

[Championess]

If you're looking for aoe burn on a dommie I'd say that comes more down to power pairing, pool picks and creativity/competence.

 

There's very few dom assaults that have above average aoe attacks, mainly psi assault would be the pairing you'd look for.  

 

Or what I did on my Illusion/Nrg dommie is I went with Soul Mastery for all my aoe needs since ST damage and controls are accounted for in my primary.  You can easily burn every mob on your own with a proc'd out Dark Obliteration, Soul Drain and heck even Dark Consumption procs well too if needed.  Then you even have access to a far better boss pet in the Fortunata that you can trade in that 'sucky' phantasm.  

 

If you lean on what makes Illusion real good and get creative with some of your grievances toward it the tools are there if you're willing to adapt.

[Riverdusk]

14 hours ago, arcane said:

“I know this control set is often doing more single target DPS than most blasters, but it doesn’t have the game’s best AoE damage too!”

 

 

I'm not one to usually pull out this old card, but this is the literal definition of straw man.  Such a perfect example of one that I'm actually impressed.  No one is asking for giving illusion the game's "best AoE damage", not even close.   Good one though.

 

Giving phantasm say explosive blast instead of energy torrent as someone suggested (and with the usual nerf in recharge/damage of a ranged AoE compared to a cone) isn't going to rocket him to the status of AoE annihilator.  You could even keep the target cap the same, 10,  like a sentinel.    More likely it'd be almost a wash, but make him a bit more well behaved and hopefully be an easy fix to his AI.   

 

Another maybe easy way would actually be to just extend his version of energy torrent's range a bit, even bumping it from 40 to 50 might be enough to fix it from running into melee so often.  To balance, reduce its arc a bit.  

 

But if the devs can fix his AI in other ways instead, I'm all for it.   Seems everyone at least agrees on that point, so that's good.  Just hope it is doable some day.

 

 

[Riverdusk]

12 hours ago, Wavicle said:

 

There is only one Controller set that's good at burning down large groups quickly and it's Fire Mastery.

 

Plant/trick arrow/fire.  Good times are had. 😁