It is time for a HARDCORE SERVER!

[Super Atom]

Just now, merrypessimist said:

 

YOu clearly don't understand how market research works.  If there is an existing product or service that performs the task you're looking to provide/produce and nobody is paying for it then it's clearly not a viable product/service for that market/demographic.

 

Let's give an example:  I want to sell cel phones to the Amish.  First step is looking to see if anyone else has tried that.  If they have, I look at how well they did with that market.  If they haven't, I look into why.  In this case, the reason they'd be unsuccessful is that the Amish market doesn't buy cel phones for religious reasons.  Thus, my market research shows that a cel phone shop in Amish country would be a bad idea.  

 

So called hardcore mode with the City playerbase, i.e. the target market is a similar nonstarter.  

 

Says who? You? Do you and the other 10 posters here speak for every single City of heroes player past and present?

 

Hardcore actually does do well on other MMO's, as stated above its currently dominating Twitch. So, like i said, market research indicates there is a fanbase behind it. Now, its still up to Homecoming if they want to look into that fanbase and see if CoH would be a fit. A handful of players on the forums saying they don't like Hardcore is not "market research proving no one would like it"

[PoptartsNinja]

4 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

 

So thunderspy's smaller dev team can make a HC server, but Homecoming's larger dev team... cant? 😕

 

Creating an enforced hardcore mode would create a fork in the game's code. The devs would have to develop code for each fork, with the possibility of that code not working on one, the other, both, or both (but in different ways).

 

WoW gets around this by throwing developer bodies and hundreds of man hours at the problem.

I love our Homecoming devs and I believe they're very capable and passionate people, so I'm not writing this off as an impossibility--but it's also true that they work on the things they want to work on. If one of them is really excited for hardcore and wants to take this on, by all means--I hope a theoretical Homecoming Hardcore server would be successful enough to be worth the effort.

 

 

We just want to make sure you understand that this isn't a small undertaking, it's not just a "buy another server." Because you'd have to write or figure out:
1) How the server would interact with other servers. Could transfers happen? If so, that kinda invalidates it.
1a) How having a server that doesn't interact with the other servers would impact the database server. Do they use the same database server or do you need a second, and if you need a second how much extra would that cost per month?

2) Is a major bug with the Hardcore server code enough to delay pushing good code to the other servers?

3) How does the hardcore server interact with the auction house?
3a) Is it disabled entirely?
3b) Internal to the server?
3c) Severely limited?
3d) Do you seed recipes to it like the live server does or does it stay completely dependent on player drops?

4) How does the hardcore server interact with the e-mail system?
4a) Is it disabled entirely?
4b) Internal only to that server?
4c) Can you still transfer items and influence?
4d) Does anything stop you from transferring all of your items and influence to a mule stored in a safe place that will never see combat?

5) How does the server interact with rezzes and Self-rezzes?
5a) Are those powers just disabled, leaving those powersets with a gap they just can't select?
5b) Are they replaced?
5c) If they're replaced, who develops the replacement powers?
5d) What happens if a replacement power is really well liked and the non-Hardcore servers want it too?

Etc, etc.

WoW has hundreds of employees and thousands of man-hours to throw at questions like these.

[merrypessimist]

2 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

 

Says who? You? Do you and the other 10 posters here speak for every single City of heroes player past and present?

 

Hardcore actually does do well on other MMO's, as stated above its currently dominating Twitch. So, like i said, market research indicates there is a fanbase behind it. Now, its still up to Homecoming if they want to look into that fanbase and see if CoH would be a fit. A handful of players on the forums saying they don't like Hardcore is not "market research proving no one would like it"

 

The fact Thunderspy has a smaller average population than most Everlasting supergroups does.

[InvaderStych]

Given that there is no actual barrier to imposing "One Life Only" restrictions on yourself, here's a thought ...

 

 

Create a Hardcore Super Group on Excel. Easy enough to maintain the SG leadership on a couple of administrative characters that aren't at risk of death by the rules. Excel is the most populated of the Homecoming servers, and thus gives you the best chance at a decent sample size.

 

Decide on a rule set, create a thread in the sub-form for Excel with said rules and invitations for interested people to join up. Heck, start yourself a Discord just for the group.

 

Promote the effort using in-game chat.

 

Play by your rules/restrictions, boot anyone who cheats from the SG.

 

Two birds here - First, you get to play "Hardcore" to your heart's content. Second, you get to see just how much interest there is/isn't among the actual player population. These forums represent a fraction, and this sub-forum a fraction of that.

 

FWIW - search around, there have been a handful of threads on folks doing "Hardcore" runs of various types. IIRC, a few even attempting to get others to join in. Historically it hasn't been terribly popular with the average Homecoming player, but who knows, maybe with some effort you'll get a decent group of dedicate folks going. Unlikely enough to support the coding and maintenance effort for a dedicated server with specific rules, but enough to enjoy yourselves - which is the whole point in the first place.

[Super Atom]

1 minute ago, PoptartsNinja said:

Creating an enforced hardcore mode would create a fork in the game's code. The devs would have to develop code for each fork, with the possibility of that code not working on one, the other, both, or both (but in different ways).

 

WoW gets around this by throwing developer bodies and hundreds of man hours at the problem.

I love our Homecoming devs and I believe they're very capable and passionate people, so I'm not writing this off as an impossibility--but it's also true that they work on the things they want to work on. If one of them is really excited for hardcore and wants to take this on, by all means--I hope a theoretical Homecoming Hardcore server would be successful enough to be worth the effort.

 

You may be correct, It could be too much work for them and that would be an accepted answer by the OP and probably anyone else. They just haven't said that yet, only players who cannot make that claim on their own.

 

They are very capable, this is why I think personally they could do it. I could be wrong, but again i can only assume like everyone else.

 

2 minutes ago, PoptartsNinja said:

We just want to make sure you understand that this isn't a small undertaking, it's not just a "buy another server."

 

This would be a fine point to make, and one that could be fleshed out through conversation in the topic! As i already did once previously by asking about mail systems and auction houses. Which was my point to OP in the first place, Idk why so many people are speaking on behalf of Homecoming like they get to say if it can or cannot be done instead of asking real questions about how it would work, how the systems would overlay, possible issues it may present. Not "Hardcore is stupid"

 

1 minute ago, merrypessimist said:

The fact Thunderspy has a smaller average population than most Everlasting supergroups does.

 

They have this all the time, again this would imply every feature they've ever made is an automatic failure. Which is just incorrect. You'd have to be real dumb to think this is proof of success or failure.

[Maelwys]

36 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

 

They aren't no, but your average CoH player tends to be a bit older and likely /literally/ does not watch twitch and likely wouldn't know Hardcore WoW is dominating it atm.

Your average CoH player also tends to NOT ENJOY PERMADEATH. 

If they did... you'd see a lot more Supergroups out there like the old Iron Eagles one.
And introducing Iron Man Mode might have breathed some new life into Thunderspy; regardless of how "unofficial" or "small" they are.
And the folk on HC who actually enjoy playing challenging content and pushing their characters would be nodding instead of naysaying every single time this crops up.

[Super Atom]

1 minute ago, Maelwys said:

Your average CoH player also tends to NOT ENJOY PERMADEATH. 

If they did... you'd see a lot more Supergroups out there like the old Iron Eagles one.
And introducing Iron Man Mode might have breathed some new life into Thunderspy; regardless of how "unofficial" or "small" they are.
And the folk on HC who actually enjoy playing challenging content and pushing their characters would be nodding instead of naysaying every single time this crops up.

 

Again, just because a handful of players do not enjoy something does not mean everyone doesn't. You can't make wild statements like this, just like i can't say they would enjoy it. That people already do it, literally means current CoH players and ones who have left, would probably ENJOY THE CONTENT. You literally have killed your own point by highlighting that there is ALREADY players doing it.

 

There is a decent amount of people who have repeatedly said, They didn't play Homecoming even because it wasn't an official server. There has been several threads made on the Subreddit about why nobody tries other servers, It was always 2 reasons.

1) Player size
2) Not official server

 

They have a ton of features, many of which Homecoming players have asked for repeatedly. None of those features have increased their playersize to homecoming levels because it is simply not the most popular server to be on.

[Super Atom]

To get back on Topic, I'll answer your questions with my own thoughts on each of them.

 

53 minutes ago, PoptartsNinja said:

1) How the server would interact with other servers. Could transfers happen? If so, that kinda invalidates it.
1a) How having a server that doesn't interact with the other servers would impact the database server. Do they use the same database server or do you need a second, and if you need a second how much extra would that cost per month?

2) Is a major bug with the Hardcore server code enough to delay pushing good code to the other servers?

3) How does the hardcore server interact with the auction house?
3a) Is it disabled entirely?
3b) Internal to the server?
3c) Severely limited?
3d) Do you seed recipes to it like the live server does or does it stay completely dependent on player drops?

4) How does the hardcore server interact with the e-mail system?
4a) Is it disabled entirely?
4b) Internal only to that server?
4c) Can you still transfer items and influence?
4d) Does anything stop you from transferring all of your items and influence to a mule stored in a safe place that will never see combat?

5) How does the server interact with rezzes and Self-rezzes?
5a) Are those powers just disabled, leaving those powersets with a gap they just can't select?
5b) Are they replaced?
5c) If they're replaced, who develops the replacement powers?
5d) What happens if a replacement power is really well liked and the non-Hardcore servers want it too?

 

1) There is several ways I've seen it done. First and foremost, you shouldn't allow transfering to.

1a) I don't think much of us could answer this, this would be a question for a dev with knowledge of how it would.

 

To add, I've seen it done in two ways. On death, you can transfer it to a normal server or it just deletes entirely.

 

2) We don't know if Hardcore would require separate updates at all, or even have an impact on added content like missions. I would assume not, as nothing really changes on any other game other than how your character is flagged.

 

3)No auction houses

 

4)No email system

 

5) Death is on death, no self revives. It works like this on other MMO's with self and other revives.

[mistagoat]

I would not be interested in such a thing.

[Aracknight]

1 hour ago, sshazaam1 said:

Don't you think everyone is being a tad negative about new upcoming ideas? Maybe the "majority" of people on here are right." Lets keep the same game we've had for 20 years at this point, and not try to evolve the game in different ways other than adding a few new power sets here and there, and the occasional new mission thread. That will keep the game alive surely. I wasn't expecting such a negative response like this overall. Keep treating new ideas like this over and over again and it might just eventually kill the game 

 

[Doc_Scorpion]

2 hours ago, sshazaam1 said:

Keep treating new ideas like this over and over again and it might just eventually kill the game again. 

We don't treat "new ideas" like this.  We treat "[censored] awful ideas" like this.


 

2 hours ago, Super Atom said:

They aren't no, but your average CoH player tends to be a bit older and likely /literally/ does not watch twitch and likely wouldn't know Hardcore WoW is dominating it atm.

Don't know, and don't care.  WoW is not CoX.  CoX is not WoW.  Two very different games with two very different game design philosophies and two very different user bases.  And that's setting aside that "popular to watch" is almost certainly not equivalent to "popular to play".

[Super Atom]

2 minutes ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

We don't treat "new ideas" like this.  We treat "[censored] awful ideas" like this.

 

This is just being toxic, Hardcore is a legit way to play MMOs/whatever. You don't like it fine, being an asshole is different.

 

3 minutes ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

Don't know, and don't care.  WoW is not CoX.  CoX is not WoW.  Two very different games with two very different game design philosophies and two very different user bases.  And that's setting aside that "popular to watch" is almost certainly not equivalent to "popular to play".

 

It's popular enough of a gamemode, people do it /anyway/ on city of heroes. It's not just a wow feature either, but you know that.

 

I'm not going to explain the correlation between watch/play popularity to you, that seems like it would be wasted.

[Maelwys]

Let's recap, briefly.

 

1 hour ago, Super Atom said:

Quote

Quote

your average CoH player tends to be a bit older and likely /literally/ does not watch twitch and likely wouldn't know Hardcore WoW is dominating it atm

Your average CoH player also tends to NOT ENJOY PERMADEATH. 

Again, just because a handful of players do not enjoy something does not mean everyone doesn't.

 

It is demonstrably not "a handful" of CoH Homecoming players who do not enjoy permadeath. Iron man SGs were a very niche thing even back on live, and you only need to read the threads I linked earlier to see how those very same players are now in even more of a minority to the point where the practice has become practically extinct.

 

Quote

You can't make wild statements like this, just like i can't say they would enjoy it. That people already do it, literally means current CoH players and ones who have left, would probably ENJOY THE CONTENT. You literally have killed your own point by highlighting that there is ALREADY players doing it.

 

A few players might, yes. But you're ignoring the fact that almost Every. Single. Response. to this over the years has been overwhelmingly negative, even by the standards of the suggestion forum.

 

So of course I can make statements like "If you polled the entire Homecoming playerbase right now with 'Would you be willing to play on a server with built-in mandatory permadeath?' you'd get fewer positive responses than a PUG Dr. Quaterfield run." . Because it's obvious from prior feedback that this is a deeply unpopular idea and (as has already been pointed out) it is also an notion that makes no sense whatsoever given the game's existing lore, balance and power selection; and would require substantial development and ongoing revenue. And it has even been tried already with no observable benefit on other non-HC servers.

 

I therefore refer you to my previous /jranger.

 

[Super Atom]

6 minutes ago, Maelwys said:

A few players might, yes. But you're ignoring the fact that almost Every. Single. Response. to this over the years has been overwhelmingly negative, even by the standards of the suggestion forum.

 

This forum is often overwhelmingly wrong and toxic about a lot of things, It's why nobody except the same 20 people like to come here.

 

6 minutes ago, Maelwys said:

So of course I can make statements like

 

Nope.

 

Anyone who says /jranger unironically is a good indicator of who you can safely ignore the opinion of.

Edited Friday at 08:35 PM by Super Atom

[Aracknight]

What happens to all the character names that this would churn through?  Do they autodelete upon logoff if defeated?  If so, doesnt remaking the same name skirt the rules?  Wont, if you suck at this game, you all hit the perceived "all the good names are taken" wall faster?

[Super Atom]

Just now, Aracknight said:

What happens to all the character names that this would churn through?  Do they autodelete upon logoff if defeated?  If so, doesnt remaking the same name skirt the rules?  Wont, if you suck at this game, you all hit the perceived "all the good names are taken" wall faster?

 

I've seen it done both ways, I think coh would benefit from just letting people use the same name even if the toon died already, Hardcore is about how far you can go, not doing it on the first try

[srmalloy]

22 hours ago, sshazaam1 said:

So many other games are adding Hardcore servers as well, despite it being "against the lore" and what not.

I dislike citing him as a counterexample, but this goes directly against what Jack Emmert described as 'fun' -- throwing yourself at the Big Boss again and again and again, being defeated over and over, until you discover the one trick to defeating them. I'm pretty sure that he would regard "you get one try, and if you guess wrong, too bad; it's over. Start again from scratch." with distaste.

[Maelwys]

20 minutes ago, srmalloy said:

I dislike citing him as a counterexample, but this goes directly against what Jack Emmert described as 'fun' 

 

That's the most convincing argument yet to actually try to make it happen... 😆

 

35 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

This forum is often overwhelmingly wrong and toxic about a lot of things, It's why nobody except the same 20 people like to come here.

Anyone who says /jranger unironically is a good indicator of who you can safely ignore the opinion of.

 

Ehh, it took until my fourth post in this topic to bring out the /jranger, well after it was already obvious that the OP wasn't actually reading the linked threads. And afterwards I still ventured another few follow-up responses with reasoned arguments that were bordering on helpful before this delightful exchange started.

 

But that's quite alright, by all means add mine to the other 19 matching opinions that you're dismissively ignoring whilst accusing us all of not understanding that the non-profit game we've been happily enjoying for years needs to suddenly change because a specific way of playing other MMOs has recently become popular on a particular Video Streaming website... 🙄

[Super Atom]

4 minutes ago, Maelwys said:

Ehh, it took until my fourth post in this topic to bring out the /jranger, well after it was already obvious that the OP wasn't actually reading the linked threads. And afterwards I still ventured another few follow-up responses with reasoned arguments that were bordering on helpful before this delightful exchange started.

 

But that's quite alright, by all means add mine to the other 19 matching opinions that you're dismissively ignoring whilst accusing us all of not understanding that the non-profit game we've been happily enjoying for years needs to suddenly change because a specific way of playing other MMOs has recently become popular on a particular Video Streaming website...

 

Hardcore has existed for a very long time, and has always had an ok sized fanbase. You continuing to pretend like people are trying to force you to play it is annoying.

 

The lab wasn't in the game either, but that got added. It's almost like developers develop new content, wouldn't want that i guess.

[arcane]

If the children on twitch are doing it, that’s just another strike against the idea, really.

[Super Atom]

1 minute ago, arcane said:

If the children on twitch are doing it, that’s just another strike against the idea, really.

 

[Maelwys]

1 minute ago, Super Atom said:

Hardcore has existed for a very long time, and has always had an ok sized fanbase. You continuing to pretend like people are trying to force you to play it is annoying.

 

The lab wasn't in the game either, but that got added. It's almost like developers develop new content, wouldn't want that i guess.

 

"Developing Content"? Sure.

 

"Wasting large amounts of time and money on something that has a target audience smaller than the Cybertruck Appreciation Society"? Notsomuch.

 

Tell you what, forget how utterly stupid this whole inconceived notion would be from a lore and development time perspective for a minute... you've claimed that there're only twenty forumites here who are sitting inside our own little we-hate-this-idea echo chamber. So try finding even half that many Homecoming players who actually desire a server with mandatory enforced permadeath. We'll wait. Whilst we all take our afternoon naps and listen to some vinyl, obviously.

[Doc_Scorpion]

4 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

Hardcore has existed for a very long time, and has always had an ok sized fanbase.

Speaking from experience, the latter statement is absolutely not true.  Siege Perilous (a hardcore shard when compared to than the main shards) on UO was always a ghost town, with a population a miniscule fraction of that of even the smallest main shard.  As has been repeatedly pointed out, it's not popular here on CoX either - hard mode players absolutely represent a sub microscopic fraction of the user base.

If hardmode is so popular, then it should be easy for you and other proponents of this idea to demonstrate it in practice.  Build an SG, a coalition of SGs, that play exclusively hardmode.  Rather than continuing to (demonstrably falsely) assert that it's universally popular - prove us wrong.

[Super Atom]

1 minute ago, Maelwys said:

"Developing Content"? Sure.

 

agreed

 

1 minute ago, Maelwys said:

"Wasting large amounts of time and money on something that has a target audience smaller than the Cybertruck Appreciation Society"? Notsomuch.

 

You mean like PvP? Agreed, go tell all the PvPers no more updates because there just isn't enough of them.

 

1 minute ago, Maelwys said:

Tell you what, forget how utterly stupid this whole inconceived notion would be from a lore and development time perspective for a minute... you've claimed that there're only twenty forumites here who are sitting inside our own little we-hate-this-idea echo chamber. So try finding even half that many Homecoming players who actually desire a server with mandatory enforced permadeath. We'll wait. Whilst we all take our afternoon naps and listen to some vinyl, obviously.

 

No.

[Super Atom]

Just now, Doc_Scorpion said:

Speaking from experience, the latter statement is absolutely not true.  Siege Perilous (a hardcore shard when compared to than the main shards) on UO was always a ghost town, with a population a miniscule fraction of that of even the smallest main shard.  As has been repeatedly pointed out, it's not popular here on CoX either - hard mode players absolutely represent a sub microscopic fraction of the user base.

 

anecdotal evidence =/= fact.

 

WoW, Runescape, and many ARPGs have thriving hardcore fanbases.

 

1 minute ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

prove us wrong.

 

I don't have to prove shit to you, you're nobody. If a developer would like to see people engage in Hardmode activity before they consider it, I think that'd be a reasonable request and an opportunity for an hardmode fans to act on it.