Just how effective are multiple Chance for Build-Up procs?

[Story Archer]

I'm talking about both Decimation & Gaussian's procs here.

 

I'm working on my final Claws/Bio Scrapper and I'm looking at trying something which might or might not be very effective and I was hoping to get some thoughts. As I understand it, each of these procs will give you, on average, one 5 sec buff of +40% ToHit and +100% damage every minute. At the moment I have a fast-recharging single-target attack chain of Follow-Up -> Focus -> Strike. I work in Moonbeam when it comes up and Eviscerate whenever there are two or more targets, but I can chain those three attacks very smoothly. In each of those three attacks, I have one enhancement slot that I can do pretty much anything with, and at the moment, that bonus slot looks like this:

 

Follow Up: Superior Critical Strikes +50% Crit. proc

Focus: Force Feedback chance for +Rech proc

Strike: Touch of Death chance for Dmg proc

 

In the interest of maximizing damage, I was considering this configuration instead:

 

Follow Up: Gaussian's Chance for Build-Up proc

Focus: Decimation Chance for Build-Up proc

Strike: Superior Critical Strikes +50% Crit. proc

 

I like the idea of all three attacks in the chain having the chance to significantly boost the other two (and whatever else gets thrown in there), but is this just fool's gold? Will they fire often enough to outweigh the benefits of the slotting I'm already using? I'm specifically thinking of utility against hard targets here, like EB's, AV's & GM's.

 

FWIW, I've selected both the Musculature Core Paragon and Assault Core Embodiment Incarnate abilities, and usually run with the Offensive Adaptation up.

 

 

Edited Monday at 04:35 PM by Story Archer

[Uun]

Both the Gaussian's and Decimation procs are 1 PPM. In addition to the PPM value, proc chances are dependent on the base recharge of the power they're slotted in. It gets more complicated for cones and AoEs. Slotted in Follow Up (which has a base recharge of 12s) the chance to fire is 21.4%. Slotted in Focus (which has a base recharge of 6.4s) the chance to fire is 12.6%.  These assume no recharge slotted in the powers - your chances decrease if you slot recharge. In order to get good value from these procs, they need to be slotted in powers with longer recharges. For example, the Gaussian proc has a 100% chance to fire in Build Up (which has a base recharge of 90s).

 

See below for a link to @macskull's PPM calculator spreadsheet. You'll need to save a copy if you want to make changes.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vd4ZZd1jfhOzdZZkGxC9O0NN5G0T1EdWPu_XRrV6s0U

[Story Archer]

1 minute ago, Uun said:

Both the Gaussian's and Decimation procs are 1 PPM. In addition to the PPM value, proc chances are dependent on the base recharge of the power they're slotted in. It gets more complicated for cones and AoEs. Slotted in Follow Up (which has a base recharge of 12s) the chance to fire is 21.4%. Slotted in Focus (which has a base recharge of 6.4s) the chance to fire is 12.6%.  These assume no recharge slotted in the powers - your chances decrease if you slot recharge. In order to get good value from these procs, they need to be slotted in powers with longer recharges. For example, the Gaussian proc has a 100% chance to fire in Build Up (which has a base recharge of 90s).

 

See below for a link to @macskull's PPM calculator spreadsheet. You'll need to save a copy if you want to make changes.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vd4ZZd1jfhOzdZZkGxC9O0NN5G0T1EdWPu_XRrV6s0U

 

I understand how the recharge rates affect procs and (of course) I slotted for recharge in all three of those attacks, meaning that the procs will fire less frequently. I'm just curious which of the two slotting options are more likely to deal the greatest damage over time.

[Black_Assassin]

I mean, you could slot both %BU and run a number of pylon kills and then slot the +rech and damage proc instead and run the test again and see if there is any noticeable difference between the two? Not like any of those IOs are onerously expensive, so wouldn't be difficult to run the experiment. 

 

Maybe run Unai Kemen council empire mission 5 times each way too and see if you notice much time difference in a "real life" setting?

[Uun]

12 minutes ago, Story Archer said:

I understand how the recharge rates affect procs and (of course) I slotted for recharge in all three of those attacks, meaning that the procs will fire less frequently. I'm just curious which of the two slotting options are more likely to deal the greatest damage over time.

Test it out, but I think the first one. You definitely want the Critical Strikes proc in Follow Up. Personally, I would change the FFB proc in Focus to a %dmg proc. 

[macskull]

27 minutes ago, Uun said:

For example, the Gaussian proc has a 100% chance to fire in Build Up (which has a base recharge of 90s).

Minor nitpick, the maximum chance for any proc is 90%. I think the most recent version of the proc calculator you linked correctly handles cases where the calculated number is outside the actual min or max.

 

On the topic of the OP though, not slotting the Critical Strikes proc into Follow Up is kinda a miss.

[Story Archer]

2 minutes ago, Uun said:

Test it out, but I think the first one. You definitely want the Critical Strikes proc in Follow Up. Personally, I would change the FFB proc in Focus to a %dmg proc. 

 

Yeah, I'm considering that too. The only reason I dropped the FF proc in was to help cycle through non-attack abilities a bit faster (Hasten, Ablative Carapace, DNA Siphon, Parasitic Aura). I've got decent +Rech, +155% w/Hasten, but Hasten isn't perma, so I was thinking every little bit would help.

[tidge]

20 minutes ago, Story Archer said:

 

I understand how the recharge rates affect procs and (of course) I slotted for recharge in all three of those attacks, meaning that the procs will fire less frequently. I'm just curious which of the two slotting options are more likely to deal the greatest damage over time.

 

For moi:

 

Almost all of the time the 'best' place for a Gaussian's %Build Up is in an actual "Build Up" (or "Aim") power, as those tend to have 90 second base recharge times, so the %proc rate will be at/near the 90% ceiling even with a full set of Gaussian's (or simply more recharge) slotted in it.

 

There is a small corner case for (a) high-DPS characters that will be (b) surrounded by a lot of pets or allies to add the Gaussian's proc to a leadership toggle, as the more friendlies affected by the toggle the larger the chance for %Build Up. The only AT I would make this blanket recommendation for are Crabberminds, as they have a good damage scale and are likely to be nearby things to trigger the proc (and can trivially get a toggle to do this). I think it is a waste on Masterminds because of their very poor damage scales, even if they could have it trigger frequently.

 

The (proc) effects of %Build Up are short, only 10 seconds IIRC. Of course you also have to HIT with whatever attacks would happen in that time. As for putting a %Build Up in an attack, I'd just use a %damage proc instead. The Proc rates will be 3.5 (or 4.5) better for %damage, and the damage will be applied directly to something you have already targeted and hit.

 

 

AFAIK: The +Critical strikes isn't a blanket +50%, it only increases the chance of the existing Critical strike by 50% of the inherent value. So 2% would go to 3%, not 52%.

[Story Archer]

2 minutes ago, macskull said:

On the topic of the OP though, not slotting the Critical Strikes proc into Follow Up is kinda a miss.

 

That's kind of my standard slotting (what it is now). I was just looking at the possibility of all three attacks giving a potential boost to each other when chained together, and shifting the CS proc to Strike was the only way to pull that off without unravelling the entire enhancement structure I've got going on... but you're right, when I'm in 'AoE mode', my attack chain is Follow Up -> Spin -> Eviscerate, so I'd want it in there regardless.

[Story Archer]

1 minute ago, tidge said:

 

For moi:

 

The (proc) effects of %Build Up are short, only 10 seconds IIRC. Of course you also have to HIT with whatever attacks would happen in that time. As for putting a %Build Up in an attack, I'd just use a %damage proc instead. The Proc rates will be 3.5 (or 4.5) better for %damage, and the damage will be applied directly to something you have already targeted and hit.

 

I actually think they (the buffs) only last for 5 seconds or so...

[Maelwys]

As a general rule of thumb; for a min-maxed build slotting a Damage Proc will usually beat slotting "Chance for Build Up"; especially if you're already getting substantial +damage buffs elsewhere (from Followup/Rage/Fury/Insps/Fulcrum Shift/Assault Core Hybrid/Whatever)
Even in the few edge cases where that doesn't hold true; the difference in DPA is only in the single-digits. And becomes moot as soon as you team with a Kin.

[Camel]

Follow-Up is going to be your friend. The +50% crit chance is INCREDIBLE slotted in this power. It's rare for me that it doesn't go off. I'm not a numbers guy, but it feels like two thirds of the time it goes off for me. The BU proc from Guass... Now that doesn't go off as much but it's still pretty solid in Follow-Up. I also have a Claws/Bio and I just recently respecced. I put two damage procs in Focus as well as the +recharge proc. I used to have Decimation and I do not miss it. The +recharge proc goes off pretty frequently, thus increasing Follow-Ups recharge without messing up the proc rates... Which in turn gives me more crit proc and Guass proc chances. The empty slots in Focus and Shockwave are for the Force Feedback procs.

Below is my build if you want to check it out 😄

-Splice (Claws - Bio Armor).mbd

Edited Monday at 07:10 PM by Camel

[Uun]

1 hour ago, tidge said:

AFAIK: The +Critical strikes isn't a blanket +50%, it only increases the chance of the existing Critical strike by 50% of the inherent value. So 2% would go to 3%, not 52%.

Actually, it's exactly that. For most powers, your base chance for a critical hit is 5% for minions and 10% for higher ranked foes. The Scrapper's Strike global increases the chances by an additional 3% for minions and 6% for higher ranked foes to 8% and 16% respectively. The Critical Strikes proc increases the chance for a critical hit by an additional 50% for 3.25s (to 58% and 66% respectively if you've got the global).

 

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=set_bonus.set_bonus.critical_strikes_proc&at=scrapper

[Frosticus]

Eagles claw (w/cs) > ball lightning> dragons tail. Turns martial arts into an aoe powerhouse.

 

Edit: in response to how critical strikes proc works.

Edited Monday at 11:10 PM by Frosticus