Saga Mode

[battlewraith]

8 minutes ago, Stormwalker said:

The tools that we have for managing the team experience do not allow for filtering out players that way.

 

I see people pretty frequently requesting certain kinds of teams. Or specifying that they are looking for certain kinds of teams. And this is aside from people that are in sgs or are using their friendslists, etc. to seek out likeminded players. Moreover, that could be something that could be added to the mode, some kind of visual marker that would indicate that they were that kind of character. I think there would be plenty of options for players to navigate this and by the mid levels it wouldn't be an issue anyway.

 

You don't need to share anything with people you don't want to. What you're actually worried about here is some degree of hypothetical inconvenience. 

[lemming]

7 hours ago, Troo said:

 

I can agree with compression.. 

..and am still comfortable with the premise: Homecoming has already granted "access to powers that the content within the level range isn't designed for."

 

Dropping Tanker, Defender, etc. tier 7 attack -4 levels, tier 8 attack -7 levels, tier 9 attack -8 levels.

Dropping Brute, Blaster, Corrupter, etc. tier 8 attack -4 levels, tier 9 attack -6 levels.

We even have outliers like Tanker Total Focus went from level 38 to level 20 (-18 levels?! is that even correct? dang).

Scorpion Shield from Mace Mastery went from level 41 to level 35 for many.

 

I can agree with the availability compression being "Similar to not having to wait until level 14 for travel powers."

 

I can also see @battlewraith feeling that their suggestion is "Similar to not having to wait until level 14 for travel powers."

 

The original post suggestion would need some refinement, That said, I can picture interesting aspects. 

It's somewhat along the lines of power creep we have already experienced.

Yea, I think the compression could be further done to basically make everything available right at the start.  Looking at the SCORE code, feasible, but it would probably more of a problem to make a different mode, than just having it universal.   (I can read code, but I'm not spending a lot of time on it)

 

So back to "Is this a good idea?"  There's a lot of reasons not to spend the effort on this, and really just a couple for it.   I get the impression that the devs do some stuff just to see if it can be done and some things are tests.   (Blarf being a prototype of the Lab Minotaur for instance)

[Stormwalker]

13 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

 

I see people pretty frequently requesting certain kinds of teams. Or specifying that they are looking for certain kinds of teams. And this is aside from people that are in sgs or are using their friendslists, etc. to seek out likeminded players. Moreover, that could be something that could be added to the mode, some kind of visual marker that would indicate that they were that kind of character. I think there would be plenty of options for players to navigate this and by the mid levels it wouldn't be an issue anyway.

 

You don't need to share anything with people you don't want to. What you're actually worried about here is some degree of hypothetical inconvenience. 

 

If the HC devs want to write the code for the tools to make it convenient, that would partially (but not fully) alleviate my concerns in that regard.  However, that's a lot of coding required which I personally think would be effort better spent on more new content.  But that's neither here nor there; the devs can decide what they think is worth coding and what isn't. 

 

Similarly, your thought that if there was a separate shard for Saga Mode, but characters transferred to regular shards would be switched to normal mode - I have no objection to that idea, but it would again require substantial coding work (since you'd have to have something in the code to force a respec after the shard transfer).

 

Also, everything we are discussing here is hypothetical, so dismissing people's concerns as hypothetical is kind of an odd tack.

[Stormwalker]

30 minutes ago, lemming said:

Yea, I think the compression could be further done to basically make everything available right at the start.  Looking at the SCORE code, feasible, but it would probably more of a problem to make a different mode, than just having it universal.   (I can read code, but I'm not spending a lot of time on it)

 

So back to "Is this a good idea?"  There's a lot of reasons not to spend the effort on this, and really just a couple for it.   I get the impression that the devs do some stuff just to see if it can be done and some things are tests.   (Blarf being a prototype of the Lab Minotaur for instance)

 

This comes back to another reason why I think if something like this was implemented, it would be better to do it on a separate shard.

 

It's going to involve a lot of coding.

 

Anyone who writes software can tell you that anytime you have a lot of coding, you will also have a lot of bugs.  It's inevitable.  With enough volume of code, even the best coders will produce a lot of bugs.

 

It's probably better to isolate that into a separate environment where it will be easier to debug.

[Luminara]

Were this something the development team had any interest in adding to the game, it definitely wouldn't start below level 20.  The game is scaled in the 1-19 range to give player characters the advantage.  For example, a single use of an unenhanced T2 attack at level 2 is sufficient for several archetypes to defeat a +0 minion.  As the character levels up, the player has to either enhance that T2 attack, or use another attack in conjunction with it, to defeat a +0 minion.  Eventually, even fully enhanced to the ED cap, that T2 attack only deals a small percentage of a +0 minion's HP.

 

Permitting players to take multiple stronger attacks in lieu of the standardized allotment wouldn't just be deleterious to the balance of the 1-19 game, it would also create a problem for inexperienced players by directly contradicting how and what the game currently teaches about slotting enhancements.  The early game is designed, and makes an effort, to gradually ease players into the process of building characters by offering slightly stronger powers at certain levels and enhancement slots at other levels, and requiring them to learn to enhance powers.  This would sidestep that, giving them nigh unlimited power from the outset, which would make the first 20 levels really boring, and then everything really, really hard, for someone who doesn't understand the systems and mechanics that they need to know later in the game.

 

And there really isn't a way to gate this so inexperienced players wouldn't fall into the trap of failing to learn how to use enhancements properly, unless the gate is so exclusionary and arbitrary that it's impossible to pass through until they're veterans.  We don't have DPS check fights, short of GMs and AVs, nor can they exist in Co* due to the extremely wide range of build variations, so nothing in the game can be used to make players prove that they know how to slot and use enhancements effectively.  Putting an actual time gate, like XXX days, on the unlock would generate complaints, so that wouldn't be on the table.  That only leaves things like badge collecting, or simply having X number of level 50 characters, neither of which is actually indicative of a player's grasp of enhancements and slotting.

 

I just don't see this as something HC would use.  It works against the ongoing efforts to bring in and retain new players.

[battlewraith]

20 minutes ago, Luminara said:

Were this something the development team had any interest in adding to the game, it definitely wouldn't start below level 20.  The game is scaled in the 1-19 range to give player characters the advantage.  For example, a single use of an unenhanced T2 attack at level 2 is sufficient for several archetypes to defeat a +0 minion.  As the character levels up, the player has to either enhance that T2 attack, or use another attack in conjunction with it, to defeat a +0 minion.  Eventually, even fully enhanced to the ED cap, that T2 attack only deals a small percentage of a +0 minion's HP.

 

Permitting players to take multiple stronger attacks in lieu of the standardized allotment wouldn't just be deleterious to the balance of the 1-19 game, it would also create a problem for inexperienced players by directly contradicting how and what the game currently teaches about slotting enhancements.  The early game is designed, and makes an effort, to gradually ease players into the process of building characters by offering slightly stronger powers at certain levels and enhancement slots at other levels, and requiring them to learn to enhance powers.  This would sidestep that, giving them nigh unlimited power from the outset, which would make the first 20 levels really boring, and then everything really, really hard, for someone who doesn't understand the systems and mechanics that they need to know later in the game.

 

And there really isn't a way to gate this so inexperienced players wouldn't fall into the trap of failing to learn how to use enhancements properly, unless the gate is so exclusionary and arbitrary that it's impossible to pass through until they're veterans.  We don't have DPS check fights, short of GMs and AVs, nor can they exist in Co* due to the extremely wide range of build variations, so nothing in the game can be used to make players prove that they know how to slot and use enhancements effectively.  Putting an actual time gate, like XXX days, on the unlock would generate complaints, so that wouldn't be on the table.  That only leaves things like badge collecting, or simply having X number of level 50 characters, neither of which is actually indicative of a player's grasp of enhancements and slotting.

 

I just don't see this as something HC would use.  It works against the ongoing efforts to bring in and retain new players.

 

Wow. I find this to be a very patronizing way to regard other players, especially when this is a somewhat obscure game and if you end up here it's probably because you know someone or have played similar games. If people want to hop in and  jump right to the endgame content, they can do that right now. They have been able to do that for a long time. And the challenge of slotting enhancements revolves around SOs, or lower. Nothing on a par with IO sets, using procs, etc. It's really not rocket science. The kind of person you're worried about is not going to stay anyways. 

Or they will and it won't be an issue because they are smarter than you give them credit for.

 

The notion that you'd want people to prove that they know what they're doing because you're concerned about corrupting the children--yeesh. 

 

 

[ZacKing]

4 hours ago, battlewraith said:

 

The game is 20+ years of different eras of development. While the exterior world of gaming has changed as well. You're special pleading. It's game breaking when I suggest something for certain reasons you don't agree with. But it's fine if it's done for reasons you agree with. The point is not that they are the same. The point is that you made a line in the sand--this is gamebreaking--and it turns out that the current reality didn't fit with your arbitrary standard. And doomsday didn't occur. The sky didn't fall. So there's less reason to take your objections seriously, not more.

 

Well no, the "power shuffling" mentioned is different for the reasons already pointed out.  I also never said I agreed with the power shuffling.  There is a lot of things the HC people do that I don't like.  They've made quite a lot of mistakes that they now have to live with.  They also have done quite a lot of good things too.  Overall they've done more good than bad in my opinion, so I'll continue to spend time here.

 

I'll say again, I think sharing and discussing ideas for how to incentivize more people to play the existing content is a good thing.  Expanding the WST to include story arcs would definitely achieve that and wouldn't break the game.  What you suggested toward that end with saga mode is game breaking as presented for the host of reasons that have been discussed in the thread, not just by me, but many others.  Posters here in this thread have provided you with many logical reasons as to why your idea isn't desirable and as presented would be detrimental to the game.  Instead of objectively addressing those concerns and refining your idea, you've gone on the attack to insult anyone who disagrees with you or points out obvious flaws in your suggestion.

 

Take the feedback people have provided you into consideration, refine your idea and propose changes that might make it more workable.  Going on the offensive to attack, insult and belittle anyone who disagrees with you isn't helping you.

[Luminara]

3 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

The notion that you'd want people to prove that they know what they're doing because you're concerned about corrupting the children--yeesh. 

 

I said that the game was designed to follow a format that requires players to learn how enhancements are used in order to progress effectively, and bypassing that format would leave players without that basic educational tool, not that players need to prove anything.  In fact, I stated that there's nothing in the game that requires that players prove knowledge in order to progress specifically in response to the suggestion that the option be gated and only to explain why gating it wouldn't work.

 

And you yanked that out of context and tried to misrepresent it.

 

Whatevs.

[battlewraith]

9 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

I said that the game was designed to follow a format that requires players to learn how enhancements are used in order to progress effectively, and bypassing that format would leave players without that basic educational tool, not that players need to prove anything.  In fact, I stated that there's nothing in the game that requires that players prove knowledge in order to progress specifically in response to the suggestion that the option be gated and only to explain why gating it wouldn't work.

 

And you yanked that out of context and tried to misrepresent it.

 

Whatevs.

 

The proposal requires at least a lvl 50 to unlock. If that's done in good faith, then this educational tool has been applied. If not, whatevs. 

[Ghost]

1 hour ago, battlewraith said:

 

 

The notion that you'd want people to prove that they know what they're doing because you're concerned about corrupting the children--yeesh. 

 

 

Weird take when the only people who could play in Sage Mode are those that have proven themselves by hitting 50

[battlewraith]

18 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

I'll say again, I think sharing and discussing ideas for how to incentivize more people to play the existing content is a good thing.  Expanding the WST to include story arcs would definitely achieve that and wouldn't break the game.  What you suggested toward that end with saga mode is game breaking as presented for the host of reasons that have been discussed in the thread, not just by me, but many others.  Posters here in this thread have provided you with many logical reasons as to why your idea isn't desirable and as presented would be detrimental to the game.  Instead of objectively addressing those concerns and refining your idea, you've gone on the attack to insult anyone who disagrees with you or points out obvious flaws in your suggestion.

 

This is a rhetorical device that people keep doing. I made a proposal. I've either elaborated on the idea or explained why I disagree with the feedback. I don't find "the host of reasons" compelling. The issues about coding or development time, which I feel are just generic assumptions to be made about any suggestion, I've acknowledged. I think I've demonstrated repeatedly that some of the people objecting to the idea are making certain unfounded and subjective assumptions about what the player base is like and what it wants. 

 

But then someone will pop in and post some summation along the lines of "all these people have made these good arguments and you haven't addressed anything. Which is really weird, when I pop in and see all the notifications of you going down the line and downvoting my posts, then complaining that I'm not addressing anything lol.

 

You mentioned the WST idea that you like. Instead of posting here again to complain to me, why don't you make a new thread about that idea and boost it? That would be something constructive. The fact that it's not happening, suggests that people don't actually care about this either way they just want an argument. I don't think you're here to help. Especially when the comments are so repetitive.

[battlewraith]

6 minutes ago, Ghost said:

Weird take when the only people who could play in Sage Mode are those that have proven themselves by hitting 50

Whaaa? She was speculating that having a 50 wouldn't be evidence enough. There's a spate of incompetent inexperienced 50s running around maybe.

[ZacKing]

5 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

I've either elaborated on the idea

 

Would you be kind enough to point to the refinements you've made to your idea based on constructive feedback?  I don't see them.  Thank you.

 

6 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

Instead of posting here again to complain to me, why don't you make a new thread about that idea and boost it?

 

I'm not complaining to you.  I'm offering feedback on your idea. 

[ZacKing]

13 minutes ago, Ghost said:

Weird take when the only people who could play in Sage Mode are those that have proven themselves by hitting 50

 

Hitting level 50 sadly doesn't mean anything anymore.  You've got new players PLing to 50 without knowing how to get out of Pocket D unfortunately.  You've also got people with several level 50s who still don't know what they're doing, so just having a 50 doesn't equate to much. 

[battlewraith]

2 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

Would you be kind enough to point to the refinements you've made to your idea based on constructive feedback?  I don't see them.  Thank you.

 

Read the thread, I'm not going to go digging through it for you. There haven't been refinements because the majority of the feedback has been either "this will break the game" or I don't like the idea for x,y,z reason. The majority of my response has to show some of these responses as baseless imo or contradictory to how the current game is (eg. you're "any way you slice it" statement.

 

6 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

I'm not complaining to you.  I'm offering feedback on your idea.

 

That's not answering the question. Why don't you make a thread about the idea you actually like?

[Excraft]

1 hour ago, battlewraith said:

There haven't been refinements because the majority of the feedback has been either "this will break the game" or I don't like the idea for x,y,z reason.

 

So you're not interested in feedback then, only attacking anyone who disagrees with your idea even though they provided you valuable feedback. 

[Starhawk32]

Development is just like snapping lego blocks together...right?

[Luminara]

57 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

Whaaa? She was speculating that having a 50 wouldn't be evidence enough.

 

In context, that sentence was a reference to the fact that farming and power-leveling is condoned on HC, which means that, in conjunction with modern gaming expectations of "the game" being what happens after hitting max level, there is no assurance that the player would garner the requisite experience in basic interaction with enhancements when using "sage mode", even if the gate were having one or more level 50 characters.

 

In the context of that post as part of an overall discussion, I expected that you would comprehend the issues that I presented, without them needing to be explained, as you've stated before that you power-level all of your characters to 50, which indicates that you're well aware that farming and power-leveling are normal activities on HC and could have an impact on player experience.

 

In your own words:

 

On 12/31/2022 at 8:51 PM, battlewraith said:

It's a great idea and most likely the kindest thing you can do for another person.

Rocket them straight to the end. Set them loose at lvl 50 with no idea what they're doing and no money.

Hope they get chewed out on teams and turned off by the gameplay.

 

In the context of that thread, your post was a sarcastic retort about helping new players by power-leveling them, then sending them out into the game without the proper experiences or resources.

 

This establishes that you were, in fact, aware of the potential problems with your idea, and the accusation of patronizing behavior and expression of incredulity were feigned.

 

Now, do you want to discuss the objective assessment that I posted?  If not, I have funny cat pictures to look at.

[battlewraith]

1 hour ago, Luminara said:

Now, do you want to discuss the objective assessment that I posted?

 

Do you want to discuss it? 

 

Frankly I think the problem that you're pointing out is pretty ridiculous. It's like a distorted, worst-case scenario of what could possibly happen if something you don't like is implemented. 

It makes no sense to me. 

 

First of all, it's absolutely redundant. If someone with no knowledge of even the basics of the game gets pled to 50--they are in a situation where they have to make slotting/power choices out of ignorance (and presumably would make bad choices). Saga mode doesn't put them in that position, they are already there. Saga mode might make it more confusing for that person, assuming for some reason that this person with absolutely no knowledge manages to get pled to 50 and then immediately jumps into saga mode. 

 

Compare this to an extant feature: temporal warrior. It does not require a lvl 50 to unlock and is available on the character select screen. It gives you a lvl 50 character, with all the incarnate and accolade powers available and sets you in RV, the highest pvp zone. Where that newbie will be instantly melted if there are any actual pvpers around. If I was going to fret about the new blood that is going to sustain this game--that is going to be a bad experience. But I think the devs and the playerbase understand that this is a feature for experienced players and they don't have fantasies about bumpkins dropping in there, getting traumatized, and then fleeing the game. 

 

Now this:

1 hour ago, Luminara said:

In your own words:

 

On 12/31/2022 at 8:51 PM, battlewraith said:

It's a great idea and most likely the kindest thing you can do for another person.

Rocket them straight to the end. Set them loose at lvl 50 with no idea what they're doing and no money.

Hope they get chewed out on teams and turned off by the gameplay.

 

In the context of that thread, your post was a sarcastic retort about helping new players by power-leveling them, then sending them out into the game without the proper experiences or resources.

 

 

is fucking hilarious. First of all, because you went to the effort to dig up some old post of mine from years ago that you think incriminates me. And secondly, it doesn't actually do anything of the sort and it doesn't relate to the thing I'm proposing. I don't pl rank beginners to 50 for those reasons.  Saga Mode is not for beginners. It's for experienced players. It just so happens that I can't rule out somebody else doing this. I don't think it's really that likely, I think generally speaking the people that are here and getting pled either know what they're doing or have friends/family/etc. that they play with and give them advice. 

 

But let's say for the sake of argument, a newbie gets leveled straight to 50, and then immediately jumps into saga mode. I think there are 3 options. One is that they actually do alright and have fun with it. Two is that they have a meh build, but they team and the friendly players on the team help them along. Eventually they would learn the ropes. Three is that they really screw up and the character is unplayable. 

 

What happens then? Lol they try something else. I did. Back in the retail days, in the heyday of this handholding lvling scheme you're holding in such high esteem, I made bad power picks. Slotted things horribly. And most importantly, just did not understand certain ATs and misused them. When that happened, I set them aside and tried again. I did not storm off in a hissy fit and leave the game. And then when pvp was added, I learned substantially different dynamics. As did a lot of other players. 

 

So no, my incredulity was not feigned. The issue you're bringing up is so overblown and cartoonish that I cannot take it seriously. 

Edited March 15 by battlewraith

[Troo]

11 hours ago, Luminara said:

The early game is designed, and makes an effort, to gradually ease players into the process of building characters by offering slightly stronger powers at certain levels and enhancement slots at other levels, and requiring them to learn to enhance powers.  This would sidestep that, giving them nigh unlimited power from the outset, which would make the first 20 levels really boring, and then everything really, really hard, for someone who doesn't understand the systems and mechanics that they need to know later in the game.

 

I do not completely disagree with this. (I like how the game tries to educate players as they advance)

Though Gloom and Moonbeam both being available by level 2 to some characters flies a bit in the face of strong powers too soon = bad / game breaking.

 

"nigh unlimited power" sure seems to be limited by level and slotting.

 

This slotting is available at level 7

 

Even with this IO slotting, the power is better at higher levels, and not low level game breaking.

 

[battlewraith]

5 hours ago, Troo said:

Even with this IO slotting, the power is better at higher levels, and not low level game breaking.

 

That looks like it would hit harder, at range, than something like total focus or headsplitter slotted with SOs.

[ZacKing]

5 hours ago, Troo said:

Though Gloom and Moonbeam both being available by level 2 to some characters flies a bit in the face of strong powers too soon = bad / game breaking.

 

There's more to it though, and I suspect you already know that.  What you've shown here is one of the many big issues with "saga mode".  It's not just about the early game, it's about the late game too.  Compare that same power (or a complete build) at level 50 taking full advantage of IO sets and bonuses with a build stuck to SOs.  There's no question which one will perform better. 

 

The target audience has been said to be "veteran players" who I would assume are familiar with the game and understand builds and IO sets.  Supposedly these veterans are bored of farming alts in AE to make funds for kitting out their alts.  It sounds to me like those vets are interested in maximizing performance of their characters and planning out builds.  Why they'd suddenly decide to limit themselves to SOs only - which is something they can already do now - seems odd.

 

5 hours ago, Troo said:

Even with this IO slotting, the power is better at higher levels, and not low level game breaking.

 

There's quite a lot of people here who would point to this and say it already is game breaking and power creep.  I'm not saying that myself, so please don't try to say I am.

[Bionic_Flea]

As proposed, I am not a fan of this saga mode.

 

However, I think there is some merit in discussing a different leveling paradigm to give old dogs a new trick to learn.

 

In thinking about the "Saga mode" name and developing a new leveling paradigm I came up with something completely different. (I also thought the idea about having an in-game curated story arc journey was great).

 

Similar to battlewraith's idea, it would only be available after the character has gotten to level 50, hits the Saga mode switch, and the character is back at level one having to chose initial powers and then level up by gaining XP.  This would be like the second and third build so you could always switch back if you wanted to run some 4 star content.  Also similar is that the character cannot slot any IOs.  But instead of being able to choose any powers at any level, the character has to choose them in the standard order, before the compression.  The character is also "blessed" with a saga mode power that removes Beginners luck (https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Attack_Mechanics#Beginner's_Luck), reinstitutes the old, higher debt values, and essentially brings back the game experience from 15 - 20 years ago.  Goodbye, ED!

 

That gives a certain population that feeling of nostalgia of playing it "hard core old school;" gives others a new challenge to overcome; or can be completely ignored just like most characters never use their other build slots.

[battlewraith]

12 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

The target audience has been said to be "veteran players" who I would assume are familiar with the game and understand builds and IO sets.  Supposedly these veterans are bored of farming alts in AE to make funds for kitting out their alts.  It sounds to me like those vets are interested in maximizing performance of their characters and planning out builds.  Why they'd suddenly decide to limit themselves to SOs only - which is something they can already do now - seems odd.

 

This isn't some death sentence for the character that is set in stone. It's a gamemode that occupies a build slot, If they want to switch the character over and put IOs in there, they can do that. If they want to take an existing character that has IOs and play around in saga mode, they can do that. It's an option to play around with more build varieties, not some plot to disrupt people's min/maxing agendas.

 

19 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

There's quite a lot of people here who would point to this and say it already is game breaking and power creep.

 

Those type of people have always been around from the beginning. Getting the travel powers early. Getting other powers earlier. Having 2x always available. Being able to respec without doing the mission, and so on. These are all things people would've complained about.

 

I'm not concerned with how these people feel. I'm concerned with how the game actually is now. Is the proposal out of line with how things actually are now.

 

For instance, some people complained that saga mode would ruin low level TF like Posi. Okay, so how long does it take a typical group doing that TF at this point to complete it? How much easier and faster does having IOs make it? I suspect that having one or more saga mode characters in the mix would maybe shave a few minutes off of the run time. I think people are more aghast at what they see as an attack on principles rather than actual impact on gameplay.

[battlewraith]

8 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

As proposed, I am not a fan of this saga mode.

 

However, I think there is some merit in discussing a different leveling paradigm to give old dogs a new trick to learn.

 

In thinking about the "Saga mode" name and developing a new leveling paradigm I came up with something completely different. (I also thought the idea about having an in-game curated story arc journey was great).

 

Similar to battlewraith's idea, it would only be available after the character has gotten to level 50, hits the Saga mode switch, and the character is back at level one having to chose initial powers and then level up by gaining XP.  This would be like the second and third build so you could always switch back if you wanted to run some 4 star content.  Also similar is that the character cannot slot any IOs.  But instead of being able to choose any powers at any level, the character has to choose them in the standard order, before the compression.  The character is also "blessed" with a saga mode power that removes Beginners luck (https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Attack_Mechanics#Beginner's_Luck), reinstitutes the old, higher debt values, and essentially brings back the game experience from 15 - 20 years ago.  Goodbye, ED!

 

That gives a certain population that feeling of nostalgia of playing it "hard core old school;" gives others a new challenge to overcome; or can be completely ignored just like most characters never use their other build slots.

 

I'm glad that even though you don't like my idea, it prompted you to do some ideation of your own.