Please make MM upgrade powers passive

[Col. Kernel]

18 hours ago, Rudra said:

Here, have a demorecording.

 

I kept it short because waiting for henchmen to heal up for the next fight makes for a very long video.

neko.cohdemo 1.14 MB · 2 downloads

Not even bothering to watch this waste of time.

You said you put on walk and walk through the mission.  If that's not slow enough to keep your henchmen from dying...

So Sapphire was correct, and you have contributed less than nothing to this conversation.

@kwsapphire so you can see that he gets the exact same results you presented.

Edited Wednesday at 05:10 PM by Col. Kernel
Tag Sapph

[Col. Kernel]

23 hours ago, Rudra said:

MMs never leave their HP anywhere unless it is from taking damage. Pets aren't more HP. They are extra damage mitigation, but only while in Bodyguard Mode with the pets in Supremacy range. You aren't losing any HP when you set pets to Aggressive or Passive, just changing what you are having those pets do.

Tell me you don't understand how Bodyguard works without using those words.

No one else has argued my statement that my HP get scattered across a zone, or within a mission, if I'm using a travel power - any travel power with the possible exception of Group Teleport which I have not tested.

[Col. Kernel]

There seems to be a lot of consternation about this request, while at the same time some posters don't seem to understand how the AT works at a very basic level.

 

So let me ask you this:  "How does this change negatively impact your play style if one of the more buggy ATs in the game is given this small improvement?"

[Rudra]

9 minutes ago, Col. Kernel said:

Not even bothering to watch this waste of time.

You said you put on walk and walk through the mission.  If that's not slow enough to keep your henchmen from dying...

So Sapphire was correct, and you have contributed less than nothing to this conversation.

@kwsapphire so you can see that he gets the exact same results you presented.

So from 'it's not possible' to 'of course that happens when you walk'? Okay.

 

And no, the results were not the same. First fight was a boss fight, and the pets handled that just fine. Second fight was a regular fight and one of my pets was left near dead at the end. Results like that are typical, but that does not make walking through missions impossible unless the mobs are all grey as was previously cited. And in the video, I even upgraded my T3 while he was still untargetable. Something else that was claimed could not be done on this thread.

 

So the net presentation of your post is "lah lah lah I can't hear you".

[Rudra]

4 minutes ago, Col. Kernel said:

There seems to be a lot of consternation about this request, while at the same time some posters don't seem to understand how the AT works at a very basic level.

 

So let me ask you this:  "How does this change negatively impact your play style if one of the more buggy ATs in the game is given this small improvement?"

As has already been stated in this thread, the devs have already said no to this idea because taking the time to upgrade pets is part of the expected game play loop for the AT.

[Col. Kernel]

1 minute ago, Rudra said:

So from 'it's not possible' to 'of course that happens when you walk'? Okay.

 

And no, the results were not the same. First fight was a boss fight, and the pets handled that just fine. Second fight was a regular fight and one of my pets was left near dead at the end. Results like that are typical, but that does not make walking through missions impossible unless the mobs are all grey as was previously cited. And in the video, I even upgraded my T3 while he was still untargetable. Something else that was claimed could not be done on this thread.

 

So the net presentation of your post is "lah lah lah I can't hear you".

I did NOT say it's possible when you walk.  You said you have to stop and rest.

To which my response is "No kidding, genius". 

Please understand that my next question is not sarcasm, it's based on the lack of understanding that seems to be taking place between us.  Is English your first language?

[Col. Kernel]

7 minutes ago, Rudra said:

As has already been stated in this thread, the devs have already said no to this idea because taking the time to upgrade pets is part of the expected game play loop for the AT.

This is called an "Argument from Authority" and is one of the classic Logical Fallacies.

I know what the Devs have said.  I'm asking for player opinions.  I do not need your permission to ask the community a question.

A question I notice that you didn't answer.

 

Edited Wednesday at 05:27 PM by Col. Kernel

[Rudra]

40 minutes ago, Col. Kernel said:

I did NOT say it's possible when you walk.  You said you have to stop and rest.

To which my response is "No kidding, genius". 

Please understand that my next question is not sarcasm, it's based on the lack of understanding that seems to be taking place between us.  Is English your first language?

And the response I was about to give would have gotten me banned, so instead I will say that when you use Walk? Of course things take time. The pets need to heal between fights for the lack of support. How much and how long varies, but after every fight there is a pause waiting for pets to recover. You have to make sure you are only facing one group at a time, otherwise the pets need the support to survive, so checking to make sure you only have one group to fight takes time. The whole thing takes time and lots of it. I never said Walking through missions as a MM was fast or expedient. I said it could be done while keeping the MM perfectly safe. And that takes time even if you aren't restricting yourself using Walk. All of this should have been obvious from the very first comment about MM characters being safe even while using Walk. So if your whole point was "no kidding, genius. It takes time to use Walk and get through a mission"? Then you completely missed my point.

 

(Edit: And for clarification? That point was that out of all the ATs, the MM is the only one outside of maybe Controllers or Dominators that can use Walk and be in an Only Affects Self state while soloing a mission and be safe. [Edit again: And still be clearing enemies.])

 

38 minutes ago, Col. Kernel said:

This is called an "Argument from Authority" and is one of the classic Logical Fallacies.

I know what the Devs have said.  I'm asking for player opinions.  I do not need your permission to ask the community a question.

A question I notice that you didn't answer.

 

I didn't answer because it is a non-issue if the people in control of game development have decided it won't be done. If you want my answer to that though? That would be fine. Great even. My MMs would be so much more powerful if it was implemented. Never again would I have to upgrade my pets. If I'm fighting EBs or AVs, or even some bosses that seem to only have high damage AoEs? I can drown them in a sea of pets so much faster. (Which is probably why it won't be done.)

 

Edited Wednesday at 06:01 PM by Rudra

[battlewraith]

2 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Then you completely missed my point.

 

What was the point exactly? I thought the idea was to show that this proposal wasn't needed because it's so easy to keep the pets alive. 

You demonstrated this by having "lazy time" in a relatively low level mission, where you waited between engagements for the pets to heal back up. 

Going slowly on easy mode doesn't really support any kind of point as far as I can tell. 

8 minutes ago, Rudra said:

I can drown them in a sea of pets so much faster

 

How much faster? How does this make any sense?

If you're able to keep your pets alive--then you'll have the maximum number of pets available throughout the fight. This proposal doesn't give you more pets.

If all the tips for targeting, upgrading, healing your pets that have been mentioned here are legitimate, then this proposal is basically about QOL, not performance. 

If the fight is going poorly, and your upgraded pets are getting wiped--then having them upgraded automatically on resummon is not going to let you drown the AV in pets unless the recharge on the summons is nil. 

[Col. Kernel]

21 minutes ago, Rudra said:

And the response I was about to give would have gotten me banned, so instead I will say that when you use Walk? Of course things take time. The pets need to heal between fights for the lack of support. How much and how long varies, but after every fight there is a pause waiting for pets to recover. You have to make sure you are only facing one group at a time, otherwise the pets need the support to survive, so checking to make sure you only have one group to fight takes time. The whole thing takes time and lots of it. I never said Walking through missions as a MM was fast or expedient. I said it could be done while keeping the MM perfectly safe. And that takes time even if you aren't restricting yourself using Walk. All of this should have been obvious from the very first comment about MM characters being safe even while using Walk. So if your whole point was "no kidding, genius. It takes time to use Walk and get through a mission"? Then you completely missed my point.

 

(Edit: And for clarification? That point was that out of all the ATs, the MM is the only one outside of maybe Controllers or Dominators that can use Walk and be in an Only Affects Self state while soloing a mission and be safe.)

 

I didn't answer because it is a non-issue if the people in control of game development have decided it won't be done. If you want my answer to that though? That would be fine. Great even. My MMs would be so much more powerful if it was implemented. Never again would I have to upgrade my pets. If I'm fighting EBs or AVs, or even some bosses that seem to only have high damage AoEs? I can drown them in a sea of pets so much faster. (Which is probably why it won't be done.)

 

Then you're still here for the sole purpose of being argumentative. 

And that's aside from the negative value you add to the rest of the conversation.  Welcome to Ignore.

[Ghost]

Sigh

What actual good does it do to go back and forth with someone who disagrees with your suggestion?

Edited Wednesday at 08:42 PM by Ghost

[Col. Kernel]

6 minutes ago, Ghost said:

Sigh

What actual good does it do to go back and forth with someone who disagrees with your suggestion?

I went back and forth with Rudra because they were misrepresenting what I said, lying about what they said and did, and they used a logical fallacy.

In short, I called BS on BS, ultimately it had next to nothing to do with him disagreeing with my suggestion. 

Almost everyone else in this thread has managed to keep the discussion civil.

Rather than start a new thread, I would ask you (and everyone else) how does this change negatively impact your play style if one of the more buggy ATs in the game is given this small improvement?

[Rudra]

2 hours ago, Col. Kernel said:

Then you're still here for the sole purpose of being argumentative. 

And that's aside from the negative value you add to the rest of the conversation.  Welcome to Ignore.

I'm going to guess you missed the sarcasm of my post. (Or perhaps you picked up on it and that is why I am now on ignore with you.) However, let me clarify why passive/automatic pet upgrades is a bad idea. If MM pet upgrades become automatic/passive, then there is no incentive to keep MM pets alive. All you have to do is cram as much recharge and universal recharge as you can to minimize the summon recharges and cram the rest with endurance reduction and character recovery boosts. Now you can maintain a semi-constant stream of upgraded pets with no effort. If you aren't summoning, you are attacking, and if you aren't attacking, it is because you are summoning. No need to worry about buffing the pets with say shields. No need to worry about healing the pets. They can take at least a couple hits from most enemies in the game, so you don't even need to maintain a constant stream of summons. And since you can do that in Bodyguard Mode, it further throws AT balance out the window.

 

But hey, you're ignoring me. So I'm just wasting my time.

[Riverdusk]

4 hours ago, Mystoc said:

MM's are just to slow for current day teams who often advertise speed TFs in LFG and clunky they are the master of solo play where they set their own pace though.

 

in maps with tight one door entrances like offices or sewers the henchmen just run into walls and don't path correctly, and you are just babysitting them constantly, MMs issue is the not survivability at all, its the pets being too slow for teams with awful AI, and the power pool options to make them faster make teamates mad at you.

 

MM henchmen do not have a survival problem at all with inspcombine for respites and heal MM isnpexecpet commands my pets almost never die here is an example, take out aid other if you don't use it

 

  Hide contents

/bind Q "petcom follow$$petcom Passive$$powexecname Aid Other$$inspexecpettarget Respite$$inspexecpettarget Dramatic_Improvement$$inspexecpettarget Resurgence"

 

this puts the targeted pet on passive and forces them to run to away from combat to where you are while also using a health inspiration on them right away and once they get closer you use aid other on them too, this will heal any henchmen to full.

 

 

 

Agreed.  For a long time honestly my #1 wish for MM pets is to just give them all a bit of improved +movement speed.  Only ones that move at even a decent speed are beasts and ninja, the rest are so fricken slow.  When on a team, by the time the pets show up at a mob, a lot of times it is already dead.  Even solo I usually end up having to wait around for them to show up when traveling to the next mob.   

 

Maybe that is also part of the devs plan to reduce their kill speed, but I'm not a fan if so.  If anything it would encourage farming as you can put mobs close together on an AE map.

 

Not to even mention the times some of them get stuck on that one warehouse corner upper ramp area (zombies especially for some reason in that one spot), or stuck in the sewer map in the room with the tight zig zagging openings (illusion phantasm also likes to get stuck there).

 

Good bind, I like it.

[Doc_Scorpion]

1 hour ago, Col. Kernel said:

Rather than start a new thread, I would ask you (and everyone else) how does this change negatively impact your play style if one of the more buggy ATs in the game is given this small improvement?

Doesn't matter whether or not it impacts my playstyle.  What matters is how it impacts the game in general and the AT in specific.  And it impacts the AT negatively because it considerably reduces the opportunity cost of replacing lost pets, which in turn reduces the incentive to use your secondaries as designed to keep the pets alive.  A virtual waterfall of upgraded pets trivially available also increases the amount of firepower an MM can bring to bear in a given battle without a balancing disadvantage.

(Both of these are no doubt part of why the Devs have said, in the post Peregrine Falcon linked, that this isn't going to happen.)

[battlewraith]

The secondaries are not designed to keep pets alive. They are meant to assist teams. And if I'm not mistaken, they are weaker versions of what defenders, corruptors, etc. bring to the table. So while defenders, corruptors etc. are helping teammates and blasting away at mobs, masterminds are apparently supposed to manage their pets activities, keep them alive, and be of some use to their teammates. 

 

If the team is performing well, the MM already losing damage because of the lag of their pets arriving at where they need to be in order to do dmg. For a lot of content, they are going to be left in the dust by other ATs.

 

If the team is having issues, then the MM may have to keep a teammate alive instead of their pets. Then they have to pay a tax on their dps while the rest of the team can keep fighting. 

Then there's the late game content, things like the Battle Maiden fight where there are animated swords all over the place ands she's dropping large, hard hitting aoes that may be hard to handle without pets to worry about. 

 

People seem to be viewing this as a math problem. Which I guess would be compelling if I didn't actually play the game and see reasons why these complaints don't make sense and are punitive to MMs.

[GM_GooglyMoogly]

A few points:

 

1) One can disagree without being disagreeable.

 

2) There is generally no need to continuously and repeatedly say the same thing.

 

3)  MM balance is a weird thing.  A well-built level 50 MM can essentially "walk" through x8 missions solo at even level with some minor management of the pets and an occasional  heal or buff.  That same MM will struggle at *4 and even more so on incarnate or 4 star content.  I think the trick is to buff them at the highest level of difficulty without making lower levels too much of a cake "walk."   While the proposal will make MMs easier and less tedious I don't think it really does anything for them at the higher levels.  And then we'd have to come up with 2 new powers and animations to replace the upgrades and that can be incredibly difficult and time consuming to design and balance.

(Note: #3 is just my opinion as a player and not an official HC statement.)

[Doc_Scorpion]

4 hours ago, battlewraith said:

The secondaries are not designed to keep pets alive. They are meant to assist teams.

The official overview of the Mastermind as quoted on the HC Wiki's Mastermind page disagrees with you.   (The team support slot redside is taken up by Corruptors.)
 

 

4 hours ago, battlewraith said:

People seem to be viewing this as a math problem.

That's because math is one of the key tools for objectively analyzing the effects of a change.  Subjective, hyperbolic, and emotional arguments are no substitute.

And with that, I'm going to take GooglyMoogly's advice and depart this thread.

[Col. Kernel]

5 hours ago, GM_GooglyMoogly said:

A few points:

 

1) One can disagree without being disagreeable.

 

2) There is generally no need to continuously and repeatedly say the same thing.

 

3)  MM balance is a weird thing.  A well-built level 50 MM can essentially "walk" through x8 missions solo at even level with some minor management of the pets and an occasional  heal or buff.  That same MM will struggle at *4 and even more so on incarnate or 4 star content.  I think the trick is to buff them at the highest level of difficulty without making lower levels too much of a cake "walk."   While the proposal will make MMs easier and less tedious I don't think it really does anything for them at the higher levels.  And then we'd have to come up with 2 new powers and animations to replace the upgrades and that can be incredibly difficult and time consuming to design and balance.

(Note: #3 is just my opinion as a player and not an official HC statement.)

Just to clarify, I'm not suggesting that the henchman upgrades should be baked into the henchmen, I am saying that they should continue to be powers the MM needs to take(and optionally slot), but they should be passive powers rather than ones requiring a spot on on the MM's bar to be actively clicked.

 

Re:  Item #1

As for disagreeing without being disagreeable, I couldn't agree more.  The only persons I've been disagreeable with are ones I have called out on their BS (either being condescending, or lying/misrepresenting info), and I will continue to do so unapologetically.  If that's a problem, I really don't care.  Seeing that no one has determined that the people I called out were correct (and objectively they were not), I'm not terribly worried about my manners.  Don't urinate on my back then try to tell me it's raining and we'll get along just fine.

 

Re:  Item #2
If someone doesn't hear what I'm saying, and continues to insist that up is down, or that black is white there is, unfortunately, a need to repeat myself until such time as I grow weary of trying to educate the unteachable.  At which point they are told they are on Ignore and that part of the conversation is over.  Again, consistently lying to me or misrepresenting your position will get you called out.  If that's a problem it's YOUR problem, not mine.

Edited yesterday at 05:58 AM by Col. Kernel
Responding to items #1 & #2

[Jacke]

14 hours ago, Col. Kernel said:

No one else has argued my statement that my HP get scattered across a zone, or within a mission, if I'm using a travel power - any travel power with the possible exception of Group Teleport which I have not tested.

 

Group Teleport has a 30ft radius but a 25ft base range.  I don't think it's that great a travel power.

 

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=pool.teleportation.team_teleport&at=mastermind

 

 

[tidge]

5 hours ago, Col. Kernel said:

Re:  Item #2

If someone doesn't hear what I'm saying, and continues to insist that up is down, or that black is white there is, unfortunately, a need to repeat myself until such time as I grow weary of trying to educate the unteachable.  At which point they are told they are on Ignore and that part of the conversation is over.  Again, consistently lying to me or misrepresenting your position will get you called out.  If that's a problem it's YOUR problem, not mine.

 

Don't be like that. People having a different perspective on the game and game balance does not mean that those people who disagree with you are ignorant or cognitively deficient.

[battlewraith]

6 hours ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

The official overview of the Mastermind as quoted on the HC Wiki's Mastermind page disagrees with you.   (The team support slot redside is taken up by Corruptors.)

 

I didn't say anything about the role of the MM. I was talking about the secondaries, which were clearly not designed with pets in mind.

First of all many of them existed before masterminds were a thing. Secondly, all of them appear across multiple ATs. Some of which feature no pets in their primaries or secondaries.

 

6 hours ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

That's because math is one of the key tools for objectively analyzing the effects of a change.  Subjective, hyperbolic, and emotional arguments are no substitute.

 

Game design is an art, not a science. Yes, math is an important tool--but the entire point is to provide an enjoyable experience for the players. Somebody's fun hinges on a lot of subjective factors. And if it's not fun, people don't give a damn if the rationale behind it is mathematically balanced.

[battlewraith]

11 hours ago, GM_GooglyMoogly said:

A few points:

 

1) One can disagree without being disagreeable.

 

2) There is generally no need to continuously and repeatedly say the same thing.

 

3)  MM balance is a weird thing.  A well-built level 50 MM can essentially "walk" through x8 missions solo at even level with some minor management of the pets and an occasional  heal or buff.  That same MM will struggle at *4 and even more so on incarnate or 4 star content.  I think the trick is to buff them at the highest level of difficulty without making lower levels too much of a cake "walk."   While the proposal will make MMs easier and less tedious I don't think it really does anything for them at the higher levels.  And then we'd have to come up with 2 new powers and animations to replace the upgrades and that can be incredibly difficult and time consuming to design and balance.

(Note: #3 is just my opinion as a player and not an official HC statement.)

 

Unless I'm misunderstanding the OP, I thought the idea was just to make the upgrades passives, not inherents. Like quickness in SR. You would still have to select that power while leveling in order to get the benefit. It's just that the upgrade would be automatically applied upon summons. 

[Col. Kernel]

46 minutes ago, tidge said:

 

Don't be like that. People having a different perspective on the game and game balance does not mean that those people who disagree with you are ignorant or cognitively deficient.

I'm not talking about someone with a different perspective on the game or game balance.  I can agree to disagree on those types of issues.

I repeat myself under three circumstances.

1)  When someone either deliberately or accidentally misunderstands me (case in point)

2)  Someone blatantly lies or misrepresents the issue repeatedly

or

3) When someone fails to acknowledge that what I'm discussing is an issue for me.

 

It it truly a mystery to me how the in-game community can be so utterly fantastic, but these boards are so pointlessly argumentative.  If I ask a question in /help I get a prompt, courteous answer, sometimes with a side order of humor.

On these boards I get 4 pages of fresh cow patties, with 2 good answers (I consider this resolved by the way), and one piece of good information.

[GM_GooglyMoogly]

6 hours ago, Col. Kernel said:

Just to clarify, I'm not suggesting that the henchman upgrades should be baked into the henchmen, I am saying that they should continue to be powers the MM needs to take(and optionally slot), but they should be passive powers rather than ones requiring a spot on on the MM's bar to be actively clicked.

 

12 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

 

Unless I'm misunderstanding the OP, I thought the idea was just to make the upgrades passives, not inherents. Like quickness in SR. You would still have to select that power while leveling in order to get the benefit. It's just that the upgrade would be automatically applied upon summons. 

 

Ah.  Got it.  I misunderstood.