Why are Tri-Cannon & Gun Drone single target?

[Uun]

This is more of a conceptual question than a suggestion that either of these need to be buffed. The descriptions state that "It has an extremely fast fire rate and is equipped with a customized tracking system. Once locked on, it will continue to unload a volley of lead into the target until it is destroyed." Since these are machine guns, wouldn't you expect anybody standing in the vicinity of the target would also be hit? Or is the tracking system so accurate that it only hits one target at a time?

[Rudra]

That's not how machineguns work? They don't inherently spray an area unless the shooter sprays the area. They fire a stream of bullets yes, but unless you spray it across multiple targets, you're going to put all your rounds into the target you are shooting at. Unless you have a machinegun with poor accuracy so it spreads like how some SMGs often do.

 

(The description also states "into the target", so that also means a single target.)

 

Edited Saturday at 09:15 PM by Rudra
Edited to correct "They" to "The".

[Uun]

I wasn't thinking spray, but a narrow cone similar to Piercing Rounds. So if you're in the line of fire, you'll be hit.

[Rudra]

6 minutes ago, Uun said:

I wasn't thinking spray, but a narrow cone similar to Piercing Rounds. So if you're in the line of fire, you'll be hit.

So you're talking about the over-shoot shoot through problem in firearms. Yeah, that is possible with all firearms, but your OP does not make that clear or even imply it. The only thing I see in the OP the way it is written is spray.

 

Edited Saturday at 09:36 PM by Rudra
Edited as marked.

[merrypessimist]

33 minutes ago, Rudra said:

So you're talking about the over-shoot shoot through problem in firearms. Yeah, that is possible with all firearms, but your OP does not make that clear or even imply it. The only thing I see in the OP the way it is written is spray.

 

The technical term is "overpenetration."

[Rudra]

51 minutes ago, merrypessimist said:

The technical term is "overpenetration."

Thanks. For the life of me, I couldn't remember.

[srmalloy]

18 hours ago, Rudra said:

So you're talking about the over-shoot shoot through problem in firearms. Yeah, that is possible with all firearms,

It's an issue with any sort of projectile weapon, in that if you're firing a single projectile, a miss doesn't magically stop at your target, but will continue until it hits something else or the ground, so to model it correctly you'd need to treat a pistol/rifle shot like Piercing Rounds with a max target limit of 1, checked in order of increasing range. And all firearms have an inherent accuracy, usually measured in minutes of arc, that specifies how big a circle of random dispersion a weapon has around the point where the shooter is aiming, but that's already baked into the game as the power's accuracy. The same thing is true for other types of attack -- 'realistically' if they missed the intended target the effect would continue in a line until it hit something, but like your ability to, say, throw a Fireball into a mixed group of Outcasts and NPCs and hit only the Outcasts, a single-target attack only being able to hit the one target you're aiming at is a game design decision.

 

A multi-shot burst should act like Piercing Rounds does, with all targets in the line of fire checked. Barring the extensive use of Handwavium in their construction, both Gun Drone and Tri-Cannon should, by the fact that they're not (at least visibly) anchored to resist the effect of recoil on dispersion, have looser effective accuracy over the length of a burst, with the rounds more affected by recoil dispersion flying past the target to potentially hit something else. But, again, it's a game design decision to restrict their fire to a single target, however improbable this would be in a 'real life' situation with a weapon of that design.

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, srmalloy said:

It's an issue with any sort of projectile weapon, in that if you're firing a single projectile, a miss doesn't magically stop at your target, but will continue until it hits something else or the ground, so to model it correctly you'd need to treat a pistol/rifle shot like Piercing Rounds with a max target limit of 1, checked in order of increasing range. And all firearms have an inherent accuracy, usually measured in minutes of arc, that specifies how big a circle of random dispersion a weapon has around the point where the shooter is aiming, but that's already baked into the game as the power's accuracy.

Yes and no. Assuming firing at a human target, unless the arrow misses the target or it just grazes the target, the arrow imbeds itself in the target as the body absorbs the kinetic force. I have only ever been warned to make sure I hit my target when firing a bow or crossbow, that if I miss I will hit something else near or past the target. With guns, I have been warned repeatedly to check what is past the target because even if I hit the intended target, depending on the target and weapon I am firing, the round can over-penetrate and hit something past the intended target.

 

1 hour ago, srmalloy said:

The same thing is true for other types of attack -- 'realistically' if they missed the intended target the effect would continue in a line until it hit something, but like your ability to, say, throw a Fireball into a mixed group of Outcasts and NPCs and hit only the Outcasts, a single-target attack only being able to hit the one target you're aiming at is a game design decision.

This has nothing to do with anything. Yes, our AoEs magically only hurt our enemies in this game, but that has nothing to do with the spray the OP read as asking about to me or the over-penetration the author said it was actually about.

 

1 hour ago, srmalloy said:

Barring the extensive use of Handwavium in their construction, both Gun Drone and Tri-Cannon should, by the fact that they're not (at least visibly) anchored to resist the effect of recoil on dispersion, have looser effective accuracy over the length of a burst, with the rounds more affected by recoil dispersion flying past the target to potentially hit something else.

If the devs want to add this to the game, they would need to add it to every multi-shot gun attack in the game for fairness. And I don't think this is what the author is after, for a chance for the attack to not hit the intended target but instead hit something else. And if that is not the intent of this comment, but rather to have all misses from multi-shot guns check for hits against unintended targets in the area, that would layers of complexity to an already infamously questionable code. Per the OP, as best I understand it, the question is why the hits don't hit more targets. As clarified by the author, as over-penetration.

[Uun]

As I said at the top, I'm not looking for changes. Tri-Cannon works really well and allowing it to hit multiple targets would doubtless come with a reduction in damage. It's currently one of the best controller pets and I don't want to mess with it.

 

This was more of a thought exercise - if I've got 3 gatling guns (mounted to a hovering turret) each firing multiple rounds per second, what are the chances that nothing aside from the target is going to be hit?

[mistagoat]

7 minutes ago, Uun said:

As I said at the top, I'm not looking for changes. Tri-Cannon works really well and allowing it to hit multiple targets would doubtless come with a reduction in damage. It's currently one of the best controller pets and I don't want to mess with it.

 

This was more of a thought exercise - if I've got 3 gatling guns (mounted to a hovering turret) each firing multiple rounds per second, what are the chances that nothing aside from the target is going to be hit?

I think I agree. Seems hard to believe that it would be so pinpoint accurate with all that recoil on a floating platform. The tech keeping that thing afloat would have to be the most advanced tech in all of Paragon! I suppose that's possible but seems unlikely.

 

A cone would probably be the real world outcome of mounting miniguns on a floating platform that follows you and attacks your enemies.

 

(also not interested in any changes to the power in game, just exploring the thought)

[battlewraith]

23 minutes ago, Uun said:

As I said at the top, I'm not looking for changes. Tri-Cannon works really well and allowing it to hit multiple targets would doubtless come with a reduction in damage. It's currently one of the best controller pets and I don't want to mess with it.

 

This was more of a thought exercise - if I've got 3 gatling guns (mounted to a hovering turret) each firing multiple rounds per second, what are the chances that nothing aside from the target is going to be hit?

 The chance is zero. They're hovering in the air, The recoil would be pushing them all over.

 

2 minutes ago, mistagoat said:

I think I agree. Seems hard to believe that it would be so pinpoint accurate with all that recoil on a floating platform. The tech keeping that thing afloat would have to be the most advanced tech in all of Paragon! I suppose that's possible but seems unlikely.

 

A cone would probably be the real world outcome of mounting miniguns on a floating platform that follows you and attacks your enemies.

 

(also not interested in any changes to the power in game, just exploring the thought)

 

Which begs the question, if they have such advanced tech, why are they using machine guns?

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, mistagoat said:

I think I agree. Seems hard to believe that it would be so pinpoint accurate with all that recoil on a floating platform. The tech keeping that thing afloat would have to be the most advanced tech in all of Paragon! I suppose that's possible but seems unlikely.

You mean like the Blaster's Device's and the Malta Ops Engineer's auto turrets also do?

[mistagoat]

 

12 minutes ago, Rudra said:

You mean like the Blaster's Device's and the Malta Ops Engineer's auto turrets also do?

As a blanket statement, with no regard to AT or NPC or name of floating gun or in-game rules, I think the result of mounting conventional full auto firearms on some sort of floating or hovering or drone-like platform would not produce a firearms platform with pinpoint accuracy. Make is single shot and slow firing, allowing it to recover from recoil and aim the next shot and I think a case could be made.

 

[Rudra]

11 minutes ago, mistagoat said:

 

As a blanket statement, with no regard to AT or NPC or name of floating gun or in-game rules, I think the result of mounting conventional full auto firearms on some sort of floating or hovering or drone-like platform would not produce a firearms platform with pinpoint accuracy. Make is single shot and slow firing, allowing it to recover from recoil and aim the next shot and I think a case could be made.

 

Or vent some of the blast exhaust up to counter the recoil?

[mistagoat]

6 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Or vent some of the blast exhaust up to counter the recoil?

Potentially. I know some real world firearms use stuff like that to reduce recoil, perhaps it could be tweaked to fully eliminate the recoil in a hypothetical future where hovering gun platforms are possible.

It's hard to come up with rules for something like this since it's all imaginary. I also envision a floating platform that somewhat conforms to our current real world tech or at least a reasonable evolution of that tech in the future. Who knows what the future hold though, maybe someone figures out how to lock into Earths magnetic field in such a way to be stable and the whole game changes.

 

That's also why none of this bothers me in game, I just imagine some crazy alien tech or magic is involved so I can suspend some disbelief.

[Ghost]

[biostem]

You can get your AoE, but the drone now only comes with about 500 rounds and about 1 hour's worth of fuel to keep it hovering, so I hope you don't plan on getting stuck in prolonged battles.  😉

[merrypessimist]

3 hours ago, biostem said:

You can get your AoE, but the drone now only comes with about 500 rounds and about 1 hour's worth of fuel to keep it hovering, so I hope you don't plan on getting stuck in prolonged battles.  😉

Okat that's about ten shots at current consumption values, so I'll resummon it every tenth shot. 

[srmalloy]

10 hours ago, Uun said:

This was more of a thought exercise - if I've got 3 gatling guns (mounted to a hovering turret) each firing multiple rounds per second, what are the chances that nothing aside from the target is going to be hit?

The chance is the same 100% that the Assault Rifle's Burst, despite firing multiple projectiles, will only hit (at best) the single target you aim at. It's a game design decision to make the power single target, regardless of the 'real' characteristics of the attack. It may not be reflective of real-world weapons, but it's the way it works in game.

Edited yesterday at 02:07 AM by srmalloy

[biostem]

10 minutes ago, srmalloy said:

It's a game design decision

It's funny how such requests for "realism" generally only go in the direction of buffing the player character - I don't see many requests for a feature where you have to hope you can make it to a hospital before bleeding out from a single gunshot, if not just being killed outright...

[Rudra]

Just now, biostem said:

It's funny how such requests for "realism" generally only go in the direction of buffing the player character - I don't see many requests for a feature where you have to hope you can make it to a hospital before bleeding out from a single gunshot, if not just being killed outright...

Tangent, so apologies in advance. I've been in parties where that wiped us out. It was hilarious some of the time, frustrating as hell others. Like in a Cyberpunk game where heavy weapons came out and only two of our team survived. One of which was unconscious and had to be carried by the other. No Trauma Team memberships, so the conscious one threw the unconscious one across the back of his bike, got on, rode to the hospital to try to save them both, failed a consciousness check for blood loss, and smeared both of them across the street.

 

Tangent complete. Apologies for having made it, but it immediately sprang to mind when I saw this post.

[battlewraith]

45 minutes ago, biostem said:

It's funny how such requests for "realism" generally only go in the direction of buffing the player character - I don't see many requests for a feature where you have to hope you can make it to a hospital before bleeding out from a single gunshot, if not just being killed outright...

 

Where is the request? I thought he was just wondering how it would work. 

[biostem]

11 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

Where is the request? I thought he was just wondering how it would work. 

 

On 3/15/2025 at 5:04 PM, Uun said:

Since these are machine guns, wouldn't you expect anybody standing in the vicinity of the target would also be hit?

 

 Clearly the implication is there.  We don't operate in an environment where, unless you explicitly ask for a thing, then no such request was made...

[battlewraith]

2 minutes ago, biostem said:

 

 

 Clearly the implication is there.  We don't operate in an environment where, unless you explicitly ask for a thing, then no such request was made...

 

I'm not a mind reader. He said this:

 

On 3/15/2025 at 5:04 PM, Uun said:

This is more of a conceptual question than a suggestion that either of these need to be buffed.

 

So I don't know why I'm supposed to assume this is a request. 

[biostem]

9 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

So I don't know why I'm supposed to assume this is a request. 

You need to look at what a person is asking, beyond the literal words they use.  Why even ask if the powers should/would/could hit other targets?  No other ST power hits targets between the caster and said target.  Any powers wishing to do so would be built as a narrow cone, a la dual pistol's piercing rounds...

 

EDIT:  When someone says "With all due respect", do you think they are actually being respectful?  When someone starts a sentence with "In all honesty", do you think there's no possibility of deception?

Edited yesterday at 03:19 AM by biostem