I'm abandoning debuffs...

[Jacke]

12 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

So you're telling me that after being reduced by the Purple Patch and by the target's DR, damage resistance debuffs are worth using?

 

I've used some of the powers you mentioned, and the Sentinel inherent, Vulnerability, and, other than the Daggers you get from the P2W vendor, none of them seemed to noticeably affect DR on EBs, AVs or GMs.

 

The Daggers are -Regen.  -Regen and -Res are two vital debuffs that when strong enough make the difference between not defeating some AVs/GMs and defeating them.

 

Sometimes, -Def debuffs are needed too.  My 2 Rules of Thumb to using Pets effectively in City, ie. get their final ToHit on +3 Level mobs (which the Pets see as +4 Level) to 95% or close, after digging through the actual numbers and preferring not to do that again.  This is because the vast majority of Pets don't benefit from the Caster's Global Buffs (like +ToHit, +Acc, +Dam, or Incarnate Level Shifts).  This is a huge bug in MRB, so big it is effectively unfixable.

• The Pet Summon Power needs to be slotted with ED-capped Acc (94% and up).
• If the Pet has critical Powers that have less than 1.2 Base Accuracy (have to look up the Pet in CoD2 to be sure), the Caster needs
  • Tactics, even just the base Slot, even weak Mastermind Tactics.
  • Or -Def applied to the targeted mob.

That's when -Def debuff is vital.  Normally for a Toon, can use IO set bonuses to get that final ToHit on +3L mobs to 95% without -Def debuffs.  But for making Pets work their best, that -Def makes the difference.  I just made a build for a Traps/AR Defender and didn't want to include Leadership, so no Tactics.  Many of the debuff Powers use Pseudopets, so that matters to them.  The T1 Power for AR is Burst: On a hit, it applies a -12.5% Def debuff for 8s.  Which can make sure Acid Grenade gets a hit to apply more -Def and -Res.

 

 

Edited April 3 by Jacke

[Steampunkette]

Y'all... Damage Resistance Debuffs being resisted by damage resistance just keeps them in parity.

 

Let's say you've got 50% Damage Resistance and I debuff you by 20%. 50% of 20% is 10%, right? So you go from 50% Resistance to 40% Resistance.

 

Which means you go from taking 50% incoming damage to taking 60% incoming damage. Which is 20% more damage than you were already taking.

 

20% or 1/5th of 50 is 10%.

 

The purple patch -does- impact it further. But it impacts it further in the same way as it does when you hit harder.

 

So if you're hitting with a 20% debuff and the target has a 90% resistance they resist 90% of your debuff, leaving you with a 2% damage increase. (Which is 20% more damage than the 10% they're currently taking). Drop it down by .48 and it's 1.02% more damage from your perspective...

 

But still a 10% damage increase to your target, relative to the damage they're currently taking.

 

Now if you wanna argue the damage resistance debuffs are bad and need to be bigger... well... Not really. Because they stack, directly, with damage buffs on your team and make them hit even harder than they would, otherwise. Which is already enough.

Edited April 3 by Steampunkette

[Snarky]

10 hours ago, shortguy on indom said:

• GO BUFFS OR GO HOME.
• IF DEBUFFS WERE SO GOOD, NOBODY WOULD USE INSPIRATIONS.

If debuffs were so good no one would use inspirations?   
 

is there an actual logic chain that goes with this or are you addicted to bumper sticker “truths”

[Ghost]

10 hours ago, shortguy on indom said:

• GO BUFFS OR GO HOME.
• IF DEBUFFS WERE SO GOOD, NOBODY WOULD USE INSPIRATIONS.

Are you saying people with Buffs never use inspirations?

Because that’s what it sounds like you’re saying.

[shortguy on indom]

2 hours ago, Snarky said:

If debuffs were so good no one would use inspirations?   
 

is there an actual logic chain that goes with this or are you addicted to bumper sticker “truths”

• And it was derby day
  Was dad and me and Darrell
  Out in San Pablo bay
  Taco flavored Doritos
  And my orange life vest
  Dad caught a hundred pound sturgeon
  On twenty-pound test
  Now he fought that fish for an hour
  And a half...........
   

[shortguy on indom]

2 hours ago, Ghost said:

Are you saying people with Buffs never use inspirations?

Because that’s what it sounds like you’re saying.

• .......Darrell'd say Jump ya sons a bitch!
  And he grabbed for the gaff
  When we got him in the boat
  He measured six feet long
  I was so danged impressed I had
  To write a song called
  Fish on. - LC

[Snarky]

19 minutes ago, shortguy on indom said:

• And it was derby day
  Was dad and me and Darrell
  Out in San Pablo bay
  Taco flavored Doritos
  And my orange life vest
  Dad caught a hundred pound sturgeon
  On twenty-pound test
  Now he fought that fish for an hour
  And a half...........
   

and debuffs say:

 

My daddy left home when I was three
And he didn't leave much to ma and me
Just this old guitar and an empty bottle of booze.
Now, I don't blame him cause he run and hid
But the meanest thing that he ever did
Was before he left, he went and named me "Sue".

[shortguy on indom]

•  

[DrRocket]

De-buffs done by a single player are pretty much lame, once you can get two or three players joining in, then de-buffing begins to be worthwhile. I can't think much can be done about it due to game standard mechanics. If you plan to solo a lot, then dump de-buff its essentially worthless and get something else.

 

I have a storm defender with lots of ACC de-buff I am yet to see a meaningful difference on the baddies punching me.

 

Best of luck

[Psyonico]

I am so confused at so much of this thread, so I’m going to just say this:

 

 there is exactly 1 support set that doesn’t have any debuffs in it.  If debuffs were so bad, there would be more (and the pure buff sets would be what gets played the most)

[Rudra]

2 hours ago, DrRocket said:

De-buffs done by a single player are pretty much lame, once you can get two or three players joining in, then de-buffing begins to be worthwhile. I can't think much can be done about it due to game standard mechanics. If you plan to solo a lot, then dump de-buff its essentially worthless and get something else.

 

I have a storm defender with lots of ACC de-buff I am yet to see a meaningful difference on the baddies punching me.

 

Best of luck

I play solo most of the time. (Almost all the time.) And I use the debuffs my sets give me. The debuffs are not going to make you invincible, that isn't their purpose. However, they do shift the battle dynamic and improve your odds of victory. My main is a Ninja/Dark Miasma Mastermind. And you can see the difference in pet survivability between applying the /Dark debuffs and not. It shows up on my Corruptors too. Those debuffs slow down the rate at which my Corruptors take damage, by reducing the rate of attacks or reducing the damage of those attacks or making more of the attacks miss than would have without, so I have time to pop a heal if needed or just hover there and tank incoming shots because I'm not taking enough damage to care.

 

Now, will you see a more profound effect when multiple players are stacking debuffs on a target? Of course you will. That doesn't make solo play debuffing worthless. You may feel like they are, and I probably won't be able to change your mind, but that doesn't change that even while solo, applying debuffs to enemies makes them more manageable. And the time you notice it most is when fighting things you can't simply faceroll.

[Wobegone]

2 hours ago, DrRocket said:

De-buffs done by a single player are pretty much lame, once you can get two or three players joining in, then de-buffing begins to be worthwhile. I can't think much can be done about it due to game standard mechanics. If you plan to solo a lot, then dump de-buff its essentially worthless and get something else.

 

For new players who wish to increase the difficulty and face bosses, Elite bosses, or AVs, this is terrible advice.   It's true debuffs and buffs are force multipliers in teams, but they are far from useless solo.

[Psyonico]

3 hours ago, DrRocket said:

I have a storm defender with lots of ACC de-buff I am yet to see a meaningful difference on the baddies punching me.

Assuming you have hurricane ED capped for to-hit debuff, even against +4s you’re getting about 23% debuffs.  That means you’re taking ~46% less hits.  AND THATS AGAINST +4

 

Heck, even base slotted, hurricane does a 37.5% debuff against even cons.  That means that against even conning enemies, you’re getting hit 75% less than without hurricane.

 

Now, I’m not going to claim that you can or can’t tell the difference a 75% incoming damage reduction makes, but that’s not a negligible amount.

[shortguy on indom]

• GREAT IF YOU'RE A BULLY WHO PICKS ON MINIONS AND LTs.