Respecs for Incarnate Abilities / Powers

[TheMoneyMaker]

1 hour ago, Wavicle said:

 

That's what the test server is for.

The test server is for that? I thought it was for testing new content before it goes live.  Sure, it could be used for this, but that isn't what its for and it shouldn't be expected that people need to go there to "try before you buy" into an incarnate power.

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, TheMoneyMaker said:

The test server is for that? I thought it was for testing new content before it goes live.  Sure, it could be used for this, but that isn't what its for and it shouldn't be expected that people need to go there to "try before you buy" into an incarnate power.

 

It is definitely ONE of the things the test server is for, trying out new powers before you settle on them in your build. It's not the only thing it's for.

It ISN'T expected you go there to try before you buy a new Incarnate power, because there is no limit to how many Incarnate powers you can have, and if you don't like the one you took you can take another. Hence why this suggestion is totally unnecessary.

[Rudra]

1 minute ago, TheMoneyMaker said:

The test server is for that? I thought it was for testing new content before it goes live.  Sure, it could be used for this, but that isn't what its for and it shouldn't be expected that people need to go there to "try before you buy" into an incarnate power.

The test server is for testing. New content the devs want final checked before release, different power combinations players may not be sure of, different character concepts. If it is something that someone wants tested, player or dev, the test server is there. That is why we aren't limited to just new content on the test server and it isn't shut down when the devs aren't asking players to test new content. So players can test things too.

[TheMoneyMaker]

32 minutes ago, Rudra said:

So you choose to play that card? Then let's turn it around. There are other servers that let you jump straight to 50 and do several other things you seem to prefer.

 

I said maybe you should look into them. But I never said I wanted to jump straight to 50, so what's your point? As for my arguments demanding responses, sometimes I feel the same way about your arguments, and as I've pointed out in the past, you often seem like you argue just to argue sometimes, so......bring it on if you want to be that guy. I'll respond to what I feel like and ignore you if I'm not in the mood.

[battlewraith]

6 hours ago, biostem said:

Are... are you arguing about wasting time, while discussing a 20+ year old video game on the internet?  In the time you've spent arguing for this idea, here, you cold have run multiple Tinpex's and gotten the levels or component necessary for that incarnate ability you wanted to craft...

 

I'm answering your comments on delayed gratification....which seem to assume a new player that needs a motivational speech on how to get the best out of their character. Not someone who has been playing the game since launch and would prefer to have the option of not running a bunch of tinpex's just because they would like to change an incarnate power. 

 

This anti-change, anti-convenience mindset has always been around and the game has survived and evolved in spite of it. 

[battlewraith]

4 hours ago, TheMoneyMaker said:

Some people may play because they enjoy the grind. Others do not; they play because they enjoy the game or the sense of nostalgia. And if the HC devs wanted us to grind and earn every little thing for the sake of keeping us playing, I don't think they would have unlocked capes, auras, all costume parts, and pretty much every other aspect of the game. But hey, if you like the idea of grind grind grind to get the next thing, I think there are other servers that cater to what you're interested in. Maybe you should go look into those.

 

Right?

I'm not seeing any objections to this idea based on balance or anything. It's just people that like to have to grind for things insisting that everyone else has to grind the same way as well. 

[Skyhawke]

16 hours ago, Captain Fabulous said:

And this shit right here, a glowing perfect example, is why most people refuse to post anything in the forums.

The constant bickering, the constant negativity, the constant toxicity is just SO FUCKING OLD.

 

This and it only got worse after CF's post. If @GM_GooglyMoogly's thread about moderation suggestions needed an example, this thread is a good one. Suggestion->a couple ideas and decent discussion -> someone's feefees get jumbled over not being seen as 100% correct -> shit storm. 

[GM_GooglyMoogly]

[Projector]

20 hours ago, arcane said:

@golstat2003 Doing this any time at zero cost would absolutely be a non-starter. That would mean there will never again be a point to having more than 6 T4 Incarnate powers, and would thus retroactively render so many hundreds or thousands of gameplay hours a complete waste of time. If veteran players aren’t somehow reimbursed that would be a pretty major middle finger.

 

Imagine being one of those players that worked hard to unlock every T4. Their efforts would mean zero with your suggestion. Several steps too far.

 

My proposed boundaries under which I wouldn’t see this change as a step too far:

Minimum frequency - once per character

Maximum frequency - once per year per character 

Minimum cost - 100 million influence 

Maximum cost - 500 million influence 

I think frequency limits, or even the way to access the incarnate respec being limited would be good boundaries. The influence cost is "meh."

What I disagree with is the "middle finger to veteran players." As a veteran player, I don't feel that I would be getting a middle finger if suddenly they made incarnate respecs possible. If anything, I would feel they are honoring my future time, instead of costing me future time because of some weird desire to honor my past.

Cars are more convenient, faster, and all-around better than horse-drawn carriage, but it's too bad we couldn't have cars because the horse-drawn carriage people would have their fee-fees hurt. The best way to honor our investments of the past is to make the future better and easier. That's what progress is.

And I for one would be far more motivated to play other toons. Legitimately, if I'm out of emp merits on a toon and need to craft a new Destiny for whatever reason, it's arguably faster to just farm up a brand new toon with the same powersets than it is to roll the dice on reward tables by grinding out iTrials and the Heather Townsend arc. 

In a pinch though? Doing an incarnate rollback every so often would actually solve a major issue, AND it would make Star content even more accessible to people, as I have newbies show up wanting to learn all the time who don't have the right incarnates and cannot craft them. They didn't know for whatever reason, and they are punished for it.

My time means much more to me as I get older, so while in the past, I wouldn't mind investing so much time and it wouldn't bother me, now it starts to, and I feel the cost more and more. Especially with issues like Carpal/Cubital tunnel. 

But you best believe I'm dreading making incarnates and doing accolades for the 4 new toons I just made because a group of my friends are wanting to test/try a few things. Yet those friendships mean enough to me that they currently win out over the time cost, but if I could have the time with those friends while minimizing the time spent getting to that point? Oh what a dream.

If I could roll back a toon that has sat unplayed for 4 years and could move those emp merits to a new one? Hell. Yes. That would be INCREDIBLE. Give me more time to play the content I actually enjoy with my friends so that I have to spend less time grinding rewards to be able to.

The Accolade investment on it's own is roughly a 5- or 6-hour investment per character without a team.

• 2 hours for Sheer Willpower (if someone already has Mark & Recall, and you arena between TFs to reset its cooldown)
• 20 minutes for Invader
• 2 hours for High Pain Threshold/Demonic
• 30-40 minutes for Born in Battle IF you have Trapdoor plus at least 2 slotted healers
• 60-90 minutes for Mark & Recall, and that's if you do the tip missions really optimally and have the Monitor Duty Teleporter
• 60-90 minutes for GEAS if you get lucky with zone events, have a team of at least 2, someone has the TF unlocked, people have the Tank Summon from START Vendor, AND someone has Mark & Recall. If done optimally, Katie is done in 10-12 minutes. It's rarely done optimally. 

So yeah, I gladly welcome that middle finger. Hell, I hope the devs put a bow on it when they give it to me, and I will receive it as the wonderful gift that it is.
 

But please, by all means, go on about how "back in your day you had to walk 5 miles through 20 feet of snow uphill to get to school--both ways."

Edited yesterday at 01:10 PM by Projector

[arcane]

I think we could all come up with analogies in which the waste of time would really sting and other analogies in which the “waste” of time would be an entirely justified time sink, so I don’t find that argument compelling at all. For instance, if I asked for a button that grants me all badges in the game with one click, you’d be completely stupid to grant that over time concerns, and Voltor would rightfully lose his shit.

 

If it is so wrong to argue that maybe you shouldn’t get new Incarnate powers for free, I need to know why you don’t think the same about levels, IO’s, accolades, badges, temporary powers, prismatic aether costumes, etc. If my logic is so flawed, those all need to be free with zero time investment too, no?

Is it possible that this, oh I don’t know, isn’t as black and white as you all make it? Is it possible that acting like video games haven’t had costs associated with rewards since the beginning of time whilst mocking me as some ignorant horse-drawn carriage driver with his panties in a bunch… isn’t the best way to win people over? 
 

As a side note, I just love my anonymity between forum and game. As the most hated poster here by a large margin, I just always find it a little whimsical that I get on discord and play with some of the very people that trash me. What a world.

Edited yesterday at 03:43 PM by arcane

[battlewraith]

32 minutes ago, arcane said:

If it is so wrong to argue that maybe you shouldn’t get new Incarnate powers for free, I need to know why you don’t think the same about levels, IO’s, accolades, badges, temporary powers, prismatic aether costumes, etc. If my logic is so flawed, those all need to be free with zero time investment too, no? Is it possible that this, oh I don’t know, isn’t as black and white as you all make it? 

 

LOL. It's a respec. You wouldn't be getting anything for free--any more than a freespec gives you a new lvl 50 or something. 

Your logic, or lack thereof, seems to be based on categorical misunderstanding of what this idea is about.

 

[Projector]

12 minutes ago, arcane said:

I think we could all come up with analogies in which the waste of time would really sting and other analogies in which the “waste” of time would be an entirely justified time sink, so I don’t find that argument compelling at all. For instance, if I asked for a button that grants me all badges in the game with one click, you’d be completely stupid to grant that over time concerns, and Voltor would rightfully lose his shit.
 

As a side note, I just love my anonymity between forum and game. As the most hated poster here by a large margin, I just always find it a little whimsical that I get on discord and play with some of the very people that trash me. What a world.

Couldn't care less who you are in game versus forum, I'd give you the same snark. In fact, you'll probably get it even worse in Discord from me. Only difference is I'm slightly more "eloquent" in text because I have more time to think and edit versus the impulsivity of my cynicism via voice chat.

Voltor losing his shit over something is far from an acceptable bar to set when demonstrating whether or not a change is worthwhile. But based on your seemingly random reference to him, I can safely assume we have played together, if not actively play together currently.

I never said these things were a waste of time, at least not objectively. Subjectively, yes, it does suck to want to do something different with the people you play with and have to spend so long getting setup, but I don't consider it a "waste" of time, moreso just how I chose to spend that time, but if I could accomplish the same goals while spending that time doing other, more meaningful things, than great.

And people using the "that's what the test server" is for--I guarantee you coding an incarnate rollback is way easier than shifting the culture in such a way that would regularly allow for things like iTrials to happen meaningfully on the test server. Most people don't want to spend their time doing something when the reward for it can't even be meaningfully used because it's stuck on the test server. Lord knows with my luck I'd get nothing but VRs on test server iTrials and nothing but commons on Excelsior.

By the way, where's the concern for all those players that spent all that time building out incarnates and everything only to discover their toon is still weak or just not fun to play? There's a remedy for enhancements in that I can strip a toon of its enhancements and save a billion influence to pass on to another toon, but no such remedy for all the hours sunk into grinding incarnates. How is that honoring the hours that were put in?

The line of convenience is always going to be entirely speculative, as well, and I see nothing wrong with adding convenience when the path do things the "hard" or "long way" still exists and is available for those that want to do it. They added double exp for those that don't value low-level content or play, and they added "disable exp" for those that value low-level content and exploring those story arcs, and neither really suffers all that much. You want to travel the long way? Don't use travel powers, Ouro, the Train, Ferry, or Long-Range Teleporter, or SG Bases. You want to play without respecs? Roll a new toon every time you want to use different powers or change slotting. 

Yet all those conveniences do nothing to curb the internal rage I feel when I have to click an elevator door 1,500 times just to go to the next floor (IYKYK)

You may not find my argument compelling, but historically in society, the debate between "the way things were" and "the way things could be" has always strongly trended one way. Sometimes we've come out better for it, other times we've come out worse for it. That said, I do not find your argument compelling that adding a limited incarnate rollback function somehow invalidates those who prefer to get their incarnates the old-fashioned way or those who already have invested that time, and in my opinion, I find such a feature a greater act of respect toward those who have, and an acknowledgement that the old method wasn't good enough.

In my opinion, the strongest argument against incarnate rollbacks would be the potential for a decrease in incarnate-based content being run when you don't have to grind out so much content. In smaller shards, I could see that being a real issue where getting enough people together to run larger-scale content is already problematic, but I have no data to back up what is only a concern.

But the only position I've really seen communicated by anyone in this thread opposing the idea is some odd fascination with having their past efforts validated, but maybe we can fix that with a badge called "10,000 Hours" that says, "I got all my incarnates the long way" and players lose the badge if they use the rollback feature. 

Or, if this change were to actually happen, DM me and I will personally buy you an custom engraved trophy that you can display at home to show everyone who enters how much time you spent grinding out incarnate components, but be forewarned, the trophy itself will just be a middle finger.
 

[battlewraith]

46 minutes ago, arcane said:

Is it possible that acting like video games haven’t had costs associated with rewards since the beginning of time whilst mocking me as some ignorant horse-drawn carriage driver with his panties in a bunch… isn’t the best way to win people over? 
 

As a side note, I just love my anonymity between forum and game. As the most hated poster here by a large margin, I just always find it a little whimsical that I get on discord and play with some of the very people that trash me.

 

If, by your own admission, you are this hated figure why would I take your advice about how to win people over? LMAO?

[arcane]

47 minutes ago, arcane said:

If it is so wrong to argue that maybe you shouldn’t get new Incarnate powers for free, I need to know why you don’t think the same about levels, IO’s, accolades, badges, temporary powers, prismatic aether costumes, etc. If my logic is so flawed, those all need to be free with zero time investment too, no?

@Projector go ahead and answer this new part if you feel like it. Need to know if you can acknowledge that time sinks are not 100% inherently evil all the time. I’m fine with agreeing to disagree on the nuances and details from there. 

[Projector]

57 minutes ago, arcane said:

@Projector go ahead and answer this new part if you feel like it. Need to know if you can acknowledge that time sinks are not 100% inherently evil all the time. I’m fine with agreeing to disagree on the nuances and details from there. 

Sure thing. First, if I believed time sinks were 100% inherently evil, I wouldn't choose to play any MMO. 
I can't quote within a quote, so here's what else you've asked me to respond to:

"If it is so wrong to argue that maybe you shouldn’t get new Incarnate powers for free, I need to know why you don’t think the same about levels, IO’s, accolades, badges, temporary powers, prismatic aether costumes, etc. If my logic is so flawed, those all need to be free with zero time investment too, no?"

Your logic is flawed, because the foundation of your entire point is not what OP, or anyone in this thread so far as I can tell, is asking for. The inherent cost of an incarnate rollback or respec would be that you lose the incarnates you had, not that you get additional things for free or no time investment.

The workaround to getting incarnate components for "free" already exists via transferring unused emp merits from other toons on the same account, which still requires that toon to have gotten those merits in the first place. But there is no world in which the current or proposed systems would give incarnate powers to anyone "for free."

You already invalidated both of our earlier arguments by claiming that mine wasn't compelling to you since we could find analogies for either side. If that invalidates my argument, logic would follow it would do the same to yours if we are acting in good faith. Now, your argument against this change is because of something this change wouldn't even give?

Based on your wording, it seems like you are somehow mixing two ideas:

1. A respec which allows you to choose new Incarnate powers at the cost of old ones.
2. A respec which allows you to choose new Incarnate powers but also somehow lets you keep the ones you already made. 

#1 is what OP has requested. #2 is what people are turning this into by adding terminology like, "free." It's a disingenuous framing of the topic using inaccurate rhetoric.

At least when I accidentally project my own assumption onto an argument, I have the excuse of it literally being my name. 😄 (That was meant as comic relief via play-on words, not as an insult, I promise!)

___________________________________

In case what I've said isn't clear, let's say I have Barrier Core Epiphany (T4) and want Ageless:

Under the current system, to get Ageless Core Epiphany I only have 2 options: grind out the merits/threads on that toon or transfer them from another character on the same account that already got them, but hasn't used them. At the end, I would have both Barrier AND Ageless. The cost is my time and effort.

With the respec feature, If I have Barrier Core Epiphany and want Ageless, I could use the limited rollback functionality to trade Barrier for Ageless. At the end of it, I would only have 1 of the 2 Destiny powers, not both. Instead of costing me my time, now the cost is losing what I had unless I choose to rebuild it. If I want both powers, I would still have to put in the work, just like before.

I'm a player that runs T4 Incan Core, T4 Barrier Core, and T4 Ageless or Clarion on virtually every single 50 I make so that I'm always able to contribute when needed, and in both systems, I would still need to grind out everything I want, with the one difference being that I would no longer be punished for random mistakes nor for grinding them out on toons I end up disliking.

If anything, this actually makes those emp merits we get through vet level 99 more meaningful because now I know for sure I can find at least one T4'd incarnate setup for my toon that I really like with the rewards that the devs are giving me for continuing to play my toon. 

In the current system, if I misclick, misread, or am otherwise uninformed, I am punished for it by having the components I worked for being gone forever, but the incarnate respec system would make those mistakes feel way less severe. 

I am failing miserably to understand how giving players opportunities to undo/remake choices they don't like is a bad idea or poor game design.

Also, to address a different point you briefly mentioned: perhaps my sarcasm in my first post was a bit too far in what I implied about you or others opposed to such a change. I standby the overall examples, but I shouldn't have spoke condescendingly in giving them and I apologize for doing so.

Edited yesterday at 04:53 PM by Projector

[arcane]

Okay it’s now clear to me that people are hyperfocusing way too much on my perhaps-flippant use of the word “free” and trying to paint me as some kind of retard for not understanding the OP’s plain english, rather than focusing on any part of the debate I actually care about.
 

Yes, the suggestion in the OP would technically consume your prior incarnate picks. At the end of the day, replacing old incarnate picks currently requires a second time investment, and the OP advocates for the removal of this second time investment requirement. Sounds a little like a freebie to me compared to the current status quo, regardless of the minor detail that you do have to dispose of prior incarnate powers you plainly don’t want or need in the first place.
 

Yes, rare exceptions will exist where this exchange actually feels like it has some cost, because your character wants to have two Destinies or something.
 

So the word “free” here is indeed a bit misleading. But you are absolutely asking to have the cost of something reduced from substantial to near-zero, so, kinda splitting hairs. So I find it kind of obnoxious that you chose to type such a long response about why I was wrong to use the word “free” and completely ignored the rest of my post, which essentially asked you “are some costs and time sinks not acceptable, or, even, good?”.

 

FWIW I have always liked playing with Projector and think he’s a solid dude.

Edited yesterday at 05:18 PM by arcane

[arcane]

1 hour ago, Projector said:

In my opinion, the strongest argument against incarnate rollbacks would be the potential for a decrease in incarnate-based content being run when you don't have to grind out so much content. In smaller shards, I could see that being a real issue where getting enough people together to run larger-scale content is already problematic, but I have no data to back up what is only a concern.


 

Great point by the way. I have so many dozens of T4’d but gutted and forgotten alts that I wouldn’t have an incentive to join trials for years.

[Projector]

6 minutes ago, arcane said:

Okay it’s now clear to me that people are hyperfocusing way too much on my perhaps-flippant use of the word “free” and trying to paint me as some kind of retard for not understanding the OP’s plain english, rather than focusing on any part of the debate I actually care about.
 

Yes, the suggestion in the OP would technically consume your prior incarnate picks. At the end of the day, replacing old incarnate picks currently requires a second time investment, and the OP advocates for the removal of this second time investment requirement. Sounds a little like a freebie to me compared to the current status quo, regardless of the minor detail that you do have to dispose of prior incarnate powers you plainly don’t want or need in the first place.
 

Yes, rare exceptions will exist where this exchange actually feels like it has some cost, because your character wants to have two Destinies or something.
 

So the word “free” here is indeed a bit misleading. But you are absolutely asking to have the cost of something reduced from substantial to near-zero, so, kinda splitting hairs. So I find it kind of obnoxious that you chose to type such a long response about why I was wrong to use the word “free” and completely ignored the rest of my post, which essentially asked you “are some costs and time sinks not acceptable, or, even, good?”.

I'm not trying to paint you as a "retard," nor would I ever use that word to address another person. I am only being thorough to make sure everyone understands, not just you, since our conversation is publicly visible.

I also find that being thorough is a sign of respect as it shows I'm spending more time invested in this conversation and trying to reduce potential misunderstandings. Clearly I have failed since you both see it as obnoxious and have still misunderstood me, so to hell with that, then. I'll be brief:

If you had indeed meant the word "free" the way I interpreted, the rest of the conversation would be be from a false premise. No point in carrying on a conversation in which we are not working from the same starting point, so I chose to engage with that, first.

“are some costs and time sinks not acceptable, or, even, good?”

Yes, some costs and time sinks are unacceptable and bad. Some being acceptable is not enough of a reason to keep any specific one. Removing unnecessary ones reduces friction in the player experience and I think addressing QOL issues like this helps keep players engaged and interested.

I believe the cost of keeping unwanted powers a higher price to pay than I find that the reduced cost of replacing the power is a detriment, and I do think that such a change would improve player experience overall.

I also agreed with your original suggestion to place limits on this, so making it a one-time or few-times thing would not be reducing the cost to near-zero within that framework. 

[Projector]

55 minutes ago, arcane said:

 

 

FWIW I have always liked playing with Projector and think he’s a solid dude.

FWIW Even though I have no idea who they are, I have always liked playing with Arcane and think he/she/they are a solid person. 😄 

I am confident in saying this because the number of people I find truly distasteful is staggeringly small, so the chances that Arcane is on that list is incredibly low.

Oh, and if I ever happen across who you actually are in-game, I'm 100% sending you a middle finger trophy. It's too funny of an opportunity not to take.

Edited yesterday at 06:07 PM by Projector