Old Groups, New Styles

[Cliff_Snowpeak]

With the announcement of the new Blackwing Industries group, and the recent upgrade to the Warriors, I think the Homecoming team have proven they have what it takes to modernize the look and feel of our favorite factions. And so, I'd like to propose a couple more groups in dire need of a makeover.

#1) The Outcasts. The four elements theme they have *is* iconic, but there have been so many elemental themed powers added to the game, I think it would benefit them if more elements were added to their roster. Water, plants, weather, even darkness: all these and more could make for some interesting bad guys to fight.

The Outcasts are also in need of some fashion upgrades. Right now, they're just wearing t-shirts and jeans, and while I don't think they need anything extravagant, they definitely need something more interesting.

#2) The Banished Pantheon. Frankly, the group's whole identity took a hard left when Dark Astoria was updated. Their pulpy "Darkest Africa" look was perfectly serviceable when they were just spooky cultists, but now that they've moved deep into Lovecraftian territory, I think they're due for an overhaul.

Also, they're kinda boring to look at. They have two minions types, big zombie and small zombie, and their shamans all have the same look. More variety would be a welcome change.

#3) The Trolls. Not so much their looks, mind you. The simple clothes and green skin make for a great contrast, but I think they could do with more variety in their powers. Right now, all they have is Big and Strong^tm; their minions are strong, the lieutenants are strong and tough, and their bosses are strong, tough, and throw rocks. I think some trolls with Titan Weapons, more variety of earth-based powers, and more bizarre physical transformations could go a long way.

I'm sure there are more groups who could benefit from an upgrade, but these three stick out the most to me.

EDIT: Figured I'd add groups mentioned in the discussion.
* Wyvern: Could be improved with the Tactical Arrow powerset.

* The Cabal: Has a whole new Storm Blast set to play with.

* Malta: Arsenal Control. God help us, if they get that!

* Legacy Chain: Seismic Blast could be a great tool in their arsenal.

Edited Wednesday at 08:35 PM by Cliff_Snowpeak

[Uun]

6 hours ago, Cliff_Snowpeak said:

#2) The Banished Pantheon. Frankly, the group's whole identity took a hard left when Dark Astoria was updated. Their pulpy "Darkest Africa" look was perfectly serviceable when they were just spooky cultists, but now that they've moved deep into Lovecraftian territory, I think they're due for an overhaul.

Also, they're kinda boring to look at. They have two minions types, big zombie and small zombie, and their shamans all have the same look. More variety would be a welcome change.

I assume you're talking about the level 20-29 version. The level 40-54 versions replace the zombies with 3 kinds of male and female Shaman minions (Dark, Frost and Storm). The spirits that were the bosses at level 20-29 are underlings summoned by 4 kinds of male and female Shaman lieutenants (Death, Desire, Pain, Sorrow) at level 40-54. The Totem which were bosses at lower levels are lieutenants at higher levels. There are 6 kinds of male and female Ancient bosses (Death, Desire, Frost, Pain, Sorrow, Storms). At level 50-54 they add Banespawn minions, Defiler lieutenants and Ravager bosses.

 

https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Banished_Pantheon

[Boas]

I like what the Homecoming team did with the Freaklok. Combining two once-major factions, which sort or took a back seat in later content, is a fun way to freshen them both up. Maybe the Outcasts do similar with the Warriors, training in martial arts and using their abilities to summon powerful elemental weapons. It makes sense for these two factions to cooperate, as they have mutual enemies in the Tsoo and Trolls. Some people in the Warriors might be resistant to this, too. Is the behavior of certain Outcast recruits another reason Alexander has become so disillusioned with the Warriors he once helped lead?

 

As for the Trolls, did we ever get a storyline exploring in more depth the source of Superadyne? My guess would be either Crey or Arachnos. Both groups have good reason to keep the stuff flowing... especially if they're the ones selling it. It's even possible Superadyne and the Trolls are part of some illicit, large-scale experiment. There's always someone pulling the strings when it comes to drugs being pumped into inner city areas, right? And the CIA isn't a faction, so...

[Rudra]

44 minutes ago, Boas said:

Combining two once-major factions, which sort or took a back seat in later content, is a fun way to freshen them both up. Maybe the Outcasts do similar with the Warriors, training in martial arts and using their abilities to summon powerful elemental weapons. It makes sense for these two factions to cooperate, as they have mutual enemies in the Tsoo and Trolls. Some people in the Warriors might be resistant to this, too. Is the behavior of certain Outcast recruits another reason Alexander has become so disillusioned with the Warriors he once helped lead?

The Warriors remain relevant even at end game. Starting at level 40, they expand their array of mobs. And the Warriors favoring magic and natural skill, recruiting mutants into their number does not fit. The Freaklok are two science-driven groups being merged over their respective creator/founder's objections, but at least they both use scientific augmentations and gadgetry to improve themselves, so it makes sense for both sides to like what the other has to offer.

 

48 minutes ago, Boas said:

As for the Trolls, did we ever get a storyline exploring in more depth the source of Superadyne? My guess would be either Crey or Arachnos. Both groups have good reason to keep the stuff flowing... especially if they're the ones selling it. It's even possible Superadyne and the Trolls are part of some illicit, large-scale experiment. There's always someone pulling the strings when it comes to drugs being pumped into inner city areas, right? And the CIA isn't a faction, so...

You really need to read through the game's provided lore. There are missions that explain Superdyne. It originates with the Family. It is used by the Skulls, Trolls, and Family. It only makes Trolls on overdose.

[Jacke]

55 minutes ago, Boas said:

As for the Trolls, did we ever get a storyline exploring in more depth the source of Superadyne? My guess would be either Crey or Arachnos. Both groups have good reason to keep the stuff flowing... especially if they're the ones selling it. It's even possible Superadyne and the Trolls are part of some illicit, large-scale experiment. There's always someone pulling the strings when it comes to drugs being pumped into inner city areas, right? And the CIA isn't a faction, so...

 

A degree of knowledge about the distribution chains of Superadine over the years were discovered.  But not the original creator.

https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Superadine

 

There's an assumption (?) that the original source of Superadine was Super-Soldier Serum research in WW2.

 

I think there are at least 2 drugs in Praetoria that are versions of Superadine.

 

 

[Boas]

38 minutes ago, Rudra said:

You really need to read through the game's provided lore. There are missions that explain Superdyne. It originates with the Family. It is used by the Skulls, Trolls, and Family. It only makes Trolls on overdose.

 

You really think Superadyne comes from the Family, and that's the end of it? OK.

[Rudra]

35 minutes ago, Boas said:

 

You really think Superadyne comes from the Family, and that's the end of it? OK.

Given it is a super world and comics have established that yes, even basic criminal organizations, let alone a group like the Family, are routinely making new designer drugs to do different things? Yes. Even with Superadine being patterned after a WWII super soldier serum. (Edit: And the link @Jacke provided shows where the original experimentation with the drug was aimed.)

 

Edit again: Not everything needs to be a Nemesis plot. If you want though? Here: In one parallel dimension your hero character goes to, you find out it is a world of Trolls. Every human in the world that is not part of Nemesis' army is a Troll. Because Nemesis, at least in that world, is the originator of Superadine and used it to take over.

 

Edited Wednesday at 05:57 PM by Rudra

[megaericzero]

Existing enemy groups could definitely stand to get a look-over when new power sets are added. For instance: Wyvern now that Tactical Arrow exists, the Cabal with Storm Blast (and potentially Sorcery), and Malta (not that I'd want to make them harder) with Arsenal Control, Legacy Chain with Seismic Blast...

 

IIRC, Super Stunners were appended to the Freakshow at, or around, the time Electric Control was added.

Edited Wednesday at 05:40 PM by megaericzero

[Boas]

15 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Given it is a super world and comics have established that yes, even basic criminal organizations, let alone a group like the Family, are routinely making new designer drugs to do different things? Yes. Even with Superadine being patterned after a WWII super soldier serum. (Edit: And the link @Jacke provided shows where the original experimentation with the drug was aimed.)

 

Oh yeah, I said OK.

 

You're right, it's just the Family.

 

No need to think about or imagine there's anything else going on there.

 

Especially not here, in a thread about further developing and exploring some of these factions. You're here to explain why that's not necessary. Good job!

[Rudra]

12 minutes ago, Boas said:

Oh yeah, I said OK.

 

You're right, it's just the Family.

 

No need to think about or imagine there's anything else going on there.

 

Especially not here, in a thread about further developing and exploring some of these factions. You're here to explain why that's not necessary. Good job!

If you really want to argue about relevance of posts on the thread and how comments in response go?

 

What the thread is about: Expanding/re-vamping existing factions in the game.

 

What your Superadine post is about: Adding or changing content/missions to explore game lore rather than reviewing/updating factions.

 

This has become a derailment. I won't be arguing with you further on this thread.

[Boas]

13 minutes ago, Rudra said:

If you really want to argue about relevance of posts on the thread and how comments in response go?

 

What the thread is about: Expanding/re-vamping existing factions in the game.

 

What your Superadine post is about: Adding or changing content/missions to explore game lore rather than reviewing/updating factions.

 

This has become a derailment. I won't be arguing with you further on this thread.

 

Oh good, I'm glad you're done here. Love being accused of a bunch of stuff I never did or said, then of derailing, by the derailer. Bye!

[Super Atom]

No changes whatsoever to freakshow.

 

 

and sure

[Cliff_Snowpeak]

4 hours ago, Uun said:

I assume you're talking about the level 20-29 version. The level 40-54 versions replace the zombies with 3 kinds of male and female Shaman minions (Dark, Frost and Storm). The spirits that were the bosses at level 20-29 are underlings summoned by 4 kinds of male and female Shaman lieutenants (Death, Desire, Pain, Sorrow) at level 40-54. The Totem which were bosses at lower levels are lieutenants at higher levels. There are 6 kinds of male and female Ancient bosses (Death, Desire, Frost, Pain, Sorrow, Storms). At level 50-54 they add Banespawn minions, Defiler lieutenants and Ravager bosses.

 

https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Banished_Pantheon

 

Yeah, but even then, all the Shamans and Ancients use the same models, only differentiated by different glowy effects. If each type had a unique costume, they would have a much more interesting appearance.

 

4 hours ago, Boas said:

I like what the Homecoming team did with the Freaklok. Combining two once-major factions, which sort or took a back seat in later content, is a fun way to freshen them both up. Maybe the Outcasts do similar with the Warriors, training in martial arts and using their abilities to summon powerful elemental weapons. It makes sense for these two factions to cooperate, as they have mutual enemies in the Tsoo and Trolls. Some people in the Warriors might be resistant to this, too. Is the behavior of certain Outcast recruits another reason Alexander has become so disillusioned with the Warriors he once helped lead?

 

I definitely like this idea. The Outcasts' raw power could compliment the Warriors discipline. Heck, the Warriors' obsession with Greek mythology and philosophy could be the catalyst that brings them together, when they realize the ancient idea of the Four Elements is manifesting in the Outcasts. The weapons/armor angle could give the new and improved Outcasts' costumes some guidance.

 

3 hours ago, Rudra said:

The Warriors remain relevant even at end game. Starting at level 40, they expand their array of mobs. And the Warriors favoring magic and natural skill, recruiting mutants into their number does not fit. The Freaklok are two science-driven groups being merged over their respective creator/founder's objections, but at least they both use scientific augmentations and gadgetry to improve themselves, so it makes sense for both sides to like what the other has to offer.

 

I don't know. The game does imply that there is some connection between magic and mutants, what with their duo origin enhancements. I could definitely see Odysseus and Frostfire forming a pragmatic alliance.

 

3 hours ago, Jacke said:

A degree of knowledge about the distribution chains of Superadine over the years were discovered.  But not the original creator.

https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Superadine

 

There's an assumption (?) that the original source of Superadine was Super-Soldier Serum research in WW2.

 

And then there was that story arc where the Skulls' Petrovic brothers were brewing their own Dyne and working directly with Atta. Where did they get the recipe, or the supplies to make it? A change in Dyne's distribution and consistency could be used to justify any new powers that the Trolls could display.

 

2 hours ago, megaericzero said:

Existing enemy groups could definitely stand to get a look-over when new power sets are added. For instance: Wyvern now that Tactical Arrow exists, the Cabal with Storm Blast (and potentially Sorcery), and Malta (not that I'd want to make them harder) with Arsenal Control, Legacy Chain with Seismic Blast...

 

IIRC, Super Stunners were appended to the Freakshow at, or around, the time Electric Control was added.

 

Ooh, good additions! And yes, I remember the Stunners' addition. Everyone wept in horror.

 

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

What the thread is about: Expanding/re-vamping existing factions in the game.

 

What your Superadine post is about: Adding or changing content/missions to explore game lore rather than reviewing/updating factions.

 

This has become a derailment.

 

Not a derailment, not at all. We are discussing a video game, after all. Gameplay, lore, visuals, mechanics: they're all connected. New powers in villain groups can be justified by in-game events, new mechanics can be enhanced by flashy visuals, and new lore can serve as inspiration for new costumes and powers.

[Rudra]

35 minutes ago, Cliff_Snowpeak said:

I could definitely see Odysseus and Frostfire forming a pragmatic alliance.

Frostfire? The hero who would have died sacrificing himself for the city in higher level content if your character hadn't stopped him and resolved the situation without anyone needing to die? No, he wouldn't be working with Odysseus. He wouldn't even be working with the Outcasts. After you defeat him in the Hollows, and again later when he tries to form a new Outcasts group before his redemption, he loses status with what may remain of the Outcasts and would not be viewed by them as their leader unless they also chose to walk the path of redemption. (Which can happen considering they often called themselves heroes in multiple missions.)

 

38 minutes ago, Cliff_Snowpeak said:

Where did they get the recipe, or the supplies to make it?

It's pretty much stated they got the recipe from the supplies the Family was providing them before they rebelled.

[Cliff_Snowpeak]

50 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Frostfire? The hero who would have died sacrificing himself for the city in higher level content if your character hadn't stopped him and resolved the situation without anyone needing to die? No, he wouldn't be working with Odysseus. He wouldn't even be working with the Outcasts. After you defeat him in the Hollows, and again later when he tries to form a new Outcasts group before his redemption, he loses status with what may remain of the Outcasts and would not be viewed by them as their leader unless they also chose to walk the path of redemption. (Which can happen considering they often called themselves heroes in multiple missions.)

 

Oh yeah, forgot he had a redemption arc. Ooh, a schism in the Outcasts; that would be interesting! Maybe each side could have unique powersets to help differentiate them.

[Greycat]

19 hours ago, Cliff_Snowpeak said:

#1) The Outcasts. The four elements theme they have *is* iconic, but there have been so many elemental themed powers added to the game, I think it would benefit them if more elements were added to their roster. Water, plants, weather, even darkness: all these and more could make for some interesting bad guys to fight.

The Outcasts are also in need of some fashion upgrades. Right now, they're just wearing t-shirts and jeans, and while I don't think they need anything extravagant, they definitely need something more interesting.

 

 

I wouldn't call "plants" an element, and might argue "water" is covered by ice... not that I'd argue that hard, but it kinda-sorta is. 🙂 

 

It's a low level group, but there is room for more, I'd agree.

As far as the look? They're a low level mutant gang. Just a step above the skulls (jeans and jean jackets, or leather) and Hellions (more jeans/jackets/vests.) and even/below the warriors (at least Talos level- jeans, vests, T-shirts) - even the Freaks are basically jeans and T-shirts.

 

So I'd call it appropriate, for the most part, though a graphical update might not be out of place where some extra variety is added. (I'm not sure if I'd find it more amusing to have an Ice user in a winter coat year round or swim trunks...) 

[Cliff_Snowpeak]

1 hour ago, Greycat said:

As far as the look? They're a low level mutant gang. Just a step above the skulls (jeans and jean jackets, or leather) and Hellions (more jeans/jackets/vests.) and even/below the warriors (at least Talos level- jeans, vests, T-shirts) - even the Freaks are basically jeans and T-shirts.

 

So I'd call it appropriate, for the most part, though a graphical update might not be out of place where some extra variety is added. (I'm not sure if I'd find it more amusing to have an Ice user in a winter coat year round or swim trunks...) 

 

Yeah, but the Hellions and Skulls have *style;* one look at them, and you know exactly what they're deal is. And the Freaks' character design is mostly in their cybernetics. Simple clothes suit them, though they do have that unique fishnet thing going on.

 

As for hypothetical Outcast costumes, I love the winter coat idea. I think a look that says "I got my powers yesterday, so I threw this costume together from what I happened to have in my closet" would be fantastic. It would really emphasize that they're a bunch of thugs who got their powers through sheer happenstance.

So, I'd definitely put parkas on the Freezers, firemen's jackets on the Scorchers, muddy coveralls on the Bricks, and raincoats on the Shockers.

[Jacke]

12 hours ago, Rudra said:

 If you want though? Here: In one parallel dimension your hero character goes to, you find out it is a world of Trolls. Every human in the world that is not part of Nemesis' army is a Troll. Because Nemesis, at least in that world, is the originator of Superadine and used it to take over.

 

It's not commonly known, but that one came about because after a long weekend of gaming, Nemesis woke up on Monday and decided he was going to find out for sure how good are Trolls in WH40K.  The outline of the...Nemesis plot!

• Create a drug that will turn people into Trolls.
• Sell that drug.
• Take the net profits and finally get that proper Blood Angel army he's been wanting.
• As Trolls are created, gather them together.
• When there are enough Trolls, introduce them to various vehicles.
  • Including at least one copy of every version painted red.
• Wait.
• 1st question answered:  Do red ones really go fasta?
• Carry on answer remaining questions.

 

 

[srmalloy]

9 hours ago, Greycat said:

I wouldn't call "plants" an element, and might argue "water" is covered by ice... not that I'd argue that hard, but it kinda-sorta is.

Wood, Fire, Earth, Metal, and Water are the five Chinese elements. Plant would certainly fall under the 'wood' category. Not sure what you could pick to be the 'metal' element, though.

[srmalloy]

7 hours ago, Jacke said:

Take the net profits and finally get that proper Blood Angel army he's been wanting.

Never happen. Not only will GW have raised the prices on the Blood Angel sets, they will have discontinued the sets he needs to complete his army.

[LightMaster]

Methinks the Legacy of Light order of the Legacy Chain should have the Carnival of Light’s FX proliferated to them since their current effect are generic white-colored energy. Not a high priority list among the examples above, given the reflavoring of “Energy = Light” for some player characters works well in the context CoX so it works fine to the Legacy of Light, especially since Peacebringer’s Luminous Blast and Aura are Energy-based and Kheldians are being of light. Still, it may help for some consistency between the Legacy of Light and the Carnival of Light, given the Carnival of Light are partially remnant of the Legacy Chain in Praetorian Earth.

 

Or if we one day get Light Blast / Melee / Affinity / (Praetorian) Mastery etc. proliferated from the Carnival of Light, given Illusion Control and the upcoming Pyrotechnic Control straigth up utilizes light as part of it’s flavor and as more direct contrast to the numerous Darkness-based powers similarly to Peacebringers and Warshades? The Legacy of Light will appreciate having them for use.

 

(To reduce overlap with other Energy-based powers, they deal / reduce / dodge Energy + Psionic damage, akin to Illusion Control dealing Psionic damage.)

Edited 10 hours ago by LightMaster

[TheMoneyMaker]

21 hours ago, Cliff_Snowpeak said:

 

Oh yeah, forgot he had a redemption arc. Ooh, a schism in the Outcasts; that would be interesting! Maybe each side could have unique powersets to help differentiate them.

Maybe the new faction could use some of the newer elemental themes like storm blast, seismic blast, and pyrotechnic control.

 

Or Frostfire could start looking for others like himself that manifest dual elements. The new group could start off around the mid-level of the classic Outcasts and move up from there. They could heroes but still be treated like villains because the group as a whole is in a state of flux where Frostfire tries to make heroes of them but sometimes their vigilante outlook can go too far.

[megaericzero]

33 minutes ago, TheMoneyMaker said:

Or Frostfire could start looking for others like himself that manifest dual elements.

It could be interesting to have a foil Outcast with the opposite two branches' powers called something like Lodestone; give him seismic blast and electrical affinity powers, either Gremlins or both Voltaic and Galvanic Sentinel, etc.