How would you nerf tankers?

[Maelwys]

5 hours ago, ZemX said:

Two things I hope they revert a little:

1. I want the arc width buff back (sunk into the powers individually with no base damage change, just like PBAoEs now).  The over-cap nerf is still there to keep it from over-performing when more than 5 targets are hit but as it stands now, in many cases it's flat impossible to hit more than 5 with a standard melee cone even when standard sized enemies are clustered shoulder-to-shoulder.

 

2. But also that over-cap nerf is probably too severe given I think the above alone would put us at parity with Brutes even in the best soloing conditions.  I hope this can be tweaked back up after we get more of a look at how this is performing.  That 1/3 over-cap damage is a kick in the teeth (and elsewhere).

1) I don't enjoy trying to catch multiple melee foes within narrow cones; and I think that increasing the Arcs again probably makes sense given that the Devs increased AOE radiuses again. However one thing to keep in mind is that if they increase the Arcs on a power-by-power basis rather than as a global buff then it'd negatively impact proc activation rates in those Cone attacks. So anyone who uses Procbombed Cones in their Single Target attack chain (and there are a fair number of sets that have at least one decent melee Cone) might notice a bit of a loss in Damage.

2) Agreed. I'm still of the opinion that a -50% flat "overcap" reduction would be more balanced than a -67% one.

That said, whilst I think they overcorrected Tanker performance slightly; IMO it's not off balance by a huge amount now.
Frankly if they just make the Overcap reduction 50% and then reworked the Brute ATOs I'd actually be pretty content now with the overall melee AT balance.

[EDIT: Except for the Tanker Inherent. It's a bit lacking as it stands currently with just "Small AoE Punchvoke". Let it increase their aggro cap slightly too, please!] 😉
 

Edited June 25 by Maelwys

[Warboss]

44 minutes ago, Ultimo said:

Damage REDUCTION?  I'm already on the brink of abandoning all my Tankers because they're so incapable of doing any damage.  If they reduce their damage even MORE, why would anyone play a Tanker?

 

Exactly what we've been asking (and testing... and posting) about.

 

[ZemX]

9 minutes ago, Maelwys said:

However one thing to keep in mind is that if they increase the Arcs on a power-by-power basis rather than as a global buff then it'd negatively impact proc activation rates in those Cone attacks. So anyone who uses Procbombed Cones in their Single Target attack chain (and there are a fair number of sets that have at least one decent melee Cone) might notice a bit of a loss in Damage.

 

Hmm... am I doing the math wrong?  This looks to be a pretty small difference in proc rate for something that might be used in an ST chain like, say Sweeping Cross.  

3.5 PPM, 8s MRT (i.e. No recharge, say just acc/dmg and procs), 1.67s cast, 75 degrees base arc, 7ft radius = 45.5% proc chance.

Expand that to 112.5deg arc (+50% arc) and you get... 43% proc chance.

 

For that 2.5% hit to proc chance you get a much better chance to knock the teeth out of bad guys to the left and right of your intended victim as well.

[Maelwys]

34 minutes ago, ZemX said:

Hmm... am I doing the math wrong?  This looks to be a pretty small difference in proc rate for something that might be used in an ST chain like, say Sweeping Cross.  

3.5 PPM, 8s MRT (i.e. No recharge, say just acc/dmg and procs), 1.67s cast, 75 degrees base arc, 7ft radius = 45.5% proc chance.

Expand that to 112.5deg arc (+50% arc) and you get... 43% proc chance.

 

For that 2.5% hit to proc chance you get a much better chance to knock the teeth out of bad guys to the left and right of your intended victim as well.

Depends on the cone, but yeah it's comparatively minor unless you're using *lots* of procs.

Crowd Control's the biggest (180 degrees) and from what I can tell a +50% arc increase would bring it from 54.30% to 47.98% base activation chance for 3.5PPM procs.
That's about 4.535 average damage per activation, per proc... so realistically worst-case with 4x 3.5PPM Procs it'd be a loss of about -18 damage per activation.
The likes of Innocuous Strikes (90 degrees) would go from 54.36% to 50.53%.
That's about 2.748 average damage per activation, per proc...  so realistically worst-case with 4x 3.5PPM Procs it'd be a loss of about -11 damage per activation.

That's barely double figures; and obviously anytime you're not just fighting a single big sack of HP the wider arc itself would more than make up for it; but you just know certain pockets of the playerbase would start getting extremely irate about a few seconds difference on their pylon times... 🙊
 

Edited June 25 by Maelwys

[Psyonico]

1 hour ago, Ultimo said:

Damage REDUCTION?  I'm already on the brink of abandoning all my Tankers because they're so incapable of doing any damage.  If they reduce their damage even MORE, why would anyone play a Tanker?

Psst…

 

it’s because you don’t slot damage

[ZemX]

59 minutes ago, Maelwys said:

Crowd Control's the biggest (180 degrees) and from what I can tell a +50% arc increase would bring it from 54.30% to 47.98% base activation chance for 3.5PPM procs.

 

Crowd Control wouldn't change at all because it was never allowed to be bigger than 180 degrees even before the nerf.  Like Foot Stomp, some Tanker AoEs were always disallowed from Gauntlet's arc/radius buff because they were deemed "large enough" already.  No cone, that I'm aware of, manages more than 180 degrees and many weren't allowed to go bigger than 120 or 135.  Flashing Steel, for instance is 130 degrees and a 50% bump would have put it over 180 degrees, so it was disallowed.

 

So if they were to do for cones what they did for spheres and add to arc radius 50% on each power, I assume they'd follow the same rules Gauntlet did back before the nerf.

 

Also, I expect shared pool powers like Cross Punch wouldn't be customized for Tankers and thus would stay at the same arc radius as other ATs even though I'm pretty sure they benefitted from Gauntlet previously.  This is the rule they followed for pool sphere AoEs, it seems.  

[Ultimo]

1 hour ago, Psyonico said:

Psst…

 

it’s because you don’t slot damage

No longer true!

[Erratic1]

20 minutes ago, Ultimo said:

No longer true!

 

Have you 3-slotted damage?

[SomeGuy]

On 6/2/2025 at 3:14 PM, Snarky said:

they are not

 

 

I definitely do. Yes, it requires the ATO1 proc in an always-on PBAOE aura, but it is possible. Staying above 90  past the duration the temp is on though? HAH! Not a thing. 

 

Brutes definitely need love. Make it possible to go to 100% fury and STAY THERE when active, up their damage cap, and adjust the amount Fury contributes to dmg % as it climbs. As of TODAY my ele/tw tanker and tw/ele brute are only 16% different in ST DPS. That isn't factoring in anything else. Considering tankers are STILL the kings of melee AOE and are stupidly survivable...yeah. Still no reason to roll a brute over a tanker if you have the choice.

 

Scrappers and stalkers straight up dog walk brutes in terms of DPS. Tankers say "thats cute" at a brute's survivability. Whoever said that tankers, brutes, and scrappers are interchangeable doesn't know how this game works. Seriously ignorant statement.

 

*I can't think of a decent solution to weaken tankers, but brutes definitely need love. They are supposed to be an in-between of Tankers/Scrappers and they are NOT. 

Edited June 26 by SomeGuy

[Ultimo]

2 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

 

Have you 3-slotted damage?

2 slots, in most cases, but they're only in their 20s.

[Erratic1]

39 minutes ago, Ultimo said:

2 slots, in most cases, but they're only in their 20s.

 

Fair enough.

[Joker442]

Ya know I just said in another post, mostly joking, that we should just delete Brute and give fury to tanks but now I'm wondering if I'm right. The issue is ALWAYS Brute vs Tank Damage, and it's an argument that only matters at the very tip top of the player base, like top 5% or 10% and im being generous with those percentages i think hell these forums are likely 1% of the player base or less. 

[ParagonKid]

On 6/28/2025 at 10:41 AM, Joker442 said:

Ya know I just said in another post, mostly joking, that we should just delete Brute and give fury to tanks but now I'm wondering if I'm right. The issue is ALWAYS Brute vs Tank Damage, and it's an argument that only matters at the very tip top of the player base, like top 5% or 10% and im being generous with those percentages i think hell these forums are likely 1% of the player base or less. 

 

If we get rid of Scrappers and Brutes and then give Tankers Fury so they have a real Inherent, all of the issues with the melee ATs crowding each other go away. I can see Tankers living in harmony with Stalkers like an old Coca-Cola commercial.

 

EDIT: Rather than post another reply, I'll just add to this post.

It's not very fun that Tankers don't have a real inherent/unique mechanic. Bigger AoEs was never something tangible. "I'm going to built this toon as a Tanker as opposed to a Scrapper because my cones will be larger". Scrappers have Crits. Brutes have Fury. Stalkers have the Hide/AS gameplay loop. One can argue they don't like those inherent mechanics, but they at least have them. Tankers have the absence of unique combat. Or, if you want to put it another way, their unique combat is that they're worse at it. Not fun. Bruising wasn't great, but it was something. I'll always be sore that it was taken from Tankers and not replaced with anything real. Gauntlet, or whatever you want to call what tankers currently get as an "inherent", isn't real the same way getting socks isn't a real Christmas present.

Edited Friday at 11:44 PM by ParagonKid

[FirstRingOfSaturn]

i don't know if tankers deserve another nerf, but i think it would be feasible if they would get a little damage increase the fewer enemies are within 7 to 15 feet radius. 

For example 1 enemy = 30%, 2 = 20%, 3 = 10%, more than 3 = 0%

So not really fury, but basically what the defender has for additional team mates, just calculated over nearby enemies.

That could preserve the role for mobs and make soloing or killing the last enemies a bit less tough.

 

[Anon4321]

On 5/31/2025 at 10:55 PM, Groovy_Ghoul said:

I have never understood nerfs in PVE. So what that Tankers have great damage. It's a 21 year old game that us old nerds love to play because we crave escapism, being powerful and saving the day. It's fun being totally awesome, that's the point!

 

Give me a better reason to play a Brute. How about fixing their less-than-stellar ATOs? Elevate Brutes, don't bring down Tankers.

Exactly this. Nerfing Tanks gives me the same feeling i had when they did the enhancement diversification nerfs 20 years ago: Feels bad and makes you not want to play. I was thinking of coming back and looking and seeing this just sucks the wind out of my sails so to speak. I would have thought the people running this game now would have realized that as they're former players themselves from what I understand. I guess things look different from the dev chair, but I really think there are better ways to make other AT's more desirable like you said. 

[Ultimo]

You know, I've always said that Gauntlet is of EXTREMELY limited use when solo.  Most other classes get some significant benefit from their inherent, but not Tankers.  Perhaps something can be done with Gauntlet to accomodate the issues?

[Erratic1]

30 minutes ago, Anon4321 said:

Exactly this. Nerfing Tanks gives me the same feeling i had when they did the enhancement diversification nerfs 20 years ago: Feels bad and makes you not want to play. I was thinking of coming back and looking and seeing this just sucks the wind out of my sails so to speak.

 

Because doing THE EXACT SAME SINGLE TARGET DAMAGE AS BEFORE, and doing THE EXACT SAME AREA DAMAGE AS BEFORE BENEATH OVERCAP, has utterly, shattered Tankers and they are weaker than they have ever been.🙄

 

 

[bertboxer]

15 hours ago, Ultimo said:

You know, I've always said that Gauntlet is of EXTREMELY limited use when solo.  Most other classes get some significant benefit from their inherent, but not Tankers.  Perhaps something can be done with Gauntlet to accomodate the issues?

i may be misremembering but didn't gauntlet used to give a resistance debuff to the target when punching with a t1 power? it wasn't a big deal but that helped with single target damage some

[skoryy]

6 minutes ago, bertboxer said:

i may be misremembering but didn't gauntlet used to give a resistance debuff to the target when punching with a t1 power? it wasn't a big deal but that helped with single target damage some

 

Tanker base damage was increased at the same time.  Issue 26 page 4:
 

Scaling & Stats

• Tanker:
  • Ranged damage modifier increased from 0.5 to 0.8, Melee damage modifier increased from 0.8 to 0.95,
    • Bruise has been removed in favour of a flat damage scale increase.

[ParagonKid]

Bruising buffed any proc/bonus/pet damage you did so it was different than the flat modifier increase.