A controversial topic: is it time to make all items free?

[battlewraith]

26 minutes ago, tidge said:

CoX offers so much more content variety below 50, that this ^guy^ has got a warped perception of CoX and what is grinding. 

 

This guy is not you. In fact there are many players that are not like you. That has long been a strength of the game, that it can cater to a diversity of players. 

And yet here you are fuming and telling people what they should enjoy, while not actually offering any argument why things should be one way and not another. 

[tidge]

34 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

And yet here you are fuming and telling people what they should enjoy, while not actually offering any argument why things should be one way and not another. 

 

I haven't forgotten what triggered your endless back-in-forth in this thread was my statement that clever players will know how to be able to play exactly the way you describe (PL to 50, full-kit). You are the one who equated being able to do exactly this as a "grind", whereas other people don't see playing the game for rewards as a grind.

 

I'm not mad at you for advocating laziness, I'm disappointed in you because you know the game isn't going to give you want for free, you know it isn't a grind to get the stuff you claim to want, and the arguments made to support your position always come back to somebody keeping you (and some unknown number of hypothetical players) at the bottom of some hierarchy that only exists in your mind.

 

As @Demobot points out...if you can't find people to play with you on Brainstorm (and it isn't because folks aren't eschewing your global for some other reason) it is because players would rather play on a server where the enhancements (and accolades, and whatever) require more than an "I win!" button.

[battlewraith]

1 minute ago, tidge said:

 

I haven't forgotten what triggered your endless back-in-forth in this thread was my statement that clever players will know how to be able to play exactly the way you describe (PL to 50, full-kit). You are the one who equated being able to do exactly this as a "grind", whereas other people don't see playing the game for rewards as a grind.

 

I'm not mad at you for advocating laziness, I'm disappointed in you because you know the game isn't going to give you want for free, you know it isn't a grind to get the stuff you claim to want, and the arguments made to support your position always come back to somebody keeping you (and some unknown number of hypothetical players) at the bottom of some hierarchy that only exists in your mind.

 

As @Demobot points out...if you can't find people to play with you on Brainstorm (and it isn't because folks aren't eschewing your global for some other reason) it is because players would rather play on a server where the enhancements (and accolades, and whatever) require more than an "I win!" button.

 

If you don't like the endless back-in(?)-forth, just stop. Don't complain to me about it. It's uncouth. 

Everyone chiming in is advocating for some version of laziness that they prefer--which makes sense. This is a game--it's not a damn job, though grinders tend to forget that. The game changes over time and you float along with it. When the waters settle at a certain level, you'll get used to it and then insist that things can't change and it has to be this way. There have been people like this at every stage from the beginning. 

 

I always find the "I win button" argument amusing. If I got some free enhancements, I win the game or something? That's all it's about?

I pvped almost exclusively from the introduction of the arena until shutdown. There was virtually no reward for doing this. We did it for fun.

I won if I defeated another player or my team got more kills in a match. 

 

If you tell me that getting free stuff is an I-win button, the only way I can parse that is that you think accumulating a bunch of stuff is "winning."

It isn't though. Anyone can do it assuming they want to spend time doing it. And the person sitting on a mountain of unused merits in their vault has no more won the game than some penniless vagabond that has fun roleplaying.

[tidge]

3 hours ago, battlewraith said:

 And the person sitting on a mountain of unused merits in their vault has no more won the game than some penniless vagabond that has fun roleplaying.

 

It doesn't sound like role-playing is your idea of fun, or you wouldn't be whining for free enhancements.

 

3 hours ago, battlewraith said:

This is a game--it's not a damn job, though grinders tend to forget that.

 

Nobody has chimed in describing themselves as grinders... except for you. If this game isn't for you, you should try to find one that is more your speed.

[Yomo Kimyata]

I think we are seeing from the discussion of @battlewraith and @tidge that strong opinions are had both ways on this.

[JKCarrier]

11 hours ago, battlewraith said:

t's not really my definition. I linked to wikipedia earlier, here is an AI overview:

 

In video games, "grinding" refers to the act of repeatedly performing the same tasks or actions to achieve a specific goal, such as gaining experience points, in-game currency, or unlocking items. It often involves engaging in repetitive gameplay, like defeating enemies or gathering resources, to progress in the game. While grinding can be a necessary part of many games, it can also be perceived as tedious or boring. 

 

Except that definition applies just as much to the post-50 game as the pre-50 game. If not more so. And that definition says nothing about how many powers you have, which you previously stated was the determining factor:

 

On 7/12/2025 at 4:15 PM, battlewraith said:

At 50 you have all your powers unlocked and the greatest variety of build options. If that's something that concerns you, then post-50 is less grindy.

 

[battlewraith]

7 minutes ago, JKCarrier said:

Except that definition applies just as much to the post-50 game as the pre-50 game. If not more so. And that definition says nothing about how many powers you have, which you previously stated was the determining factor:

 

When you start the game, you can barely handle a few enemies. And it's slow. And you have to rest inbetween. In contrast to an enhanced lvl 50 character that can blast the crap out of groups of enemies and has far less downtime. If you look at how people are actually playing the game--it looks to me like a lot of people, if not the majority, want that lvl 50 experience. To the extent that a lot of people will stand around waiting to get on a farm or lvl 50 radio team rather than work their way up through normal mission content. Not to mention the fact that you can get the xp boosters to help you get past those early levels faster.

 

Why? Because people find them too grindy. And it's clearly the pre-50 game because if these people thought post-50 was just as bad, they wouldn't bother. 

And yet people are trying to gaslight me that there is no grind when anyone who has played for a reasonable amount of time can see people trying to skip over it.

 

Someone might like that early content and want to play it through. Or not even level to 50. There's nothing wrong with that. The point is not that there is a right way to play. The point is that there are different players with different preferences, priorities, and motivations. What's grind to me might not be grind to you. So I believe, after 20 years of this game's history, it's appropriate to have a conversation about incentives. 

 

That conversation is not "I play a certain way, it's not grindy, you're lazy, go look for another game."

 

 

[skoryy]

1 hour ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

I think we are seeing from the discussion of @battlewraith and @tidge that strong opinions are had both ways on this.

 

There are strong feelings both ways on if the world is flat and if man landed on the moon.

[battlewraith]

Just now, skoryy said:

 

There are strong feelings both ways on if the world is flat and if man landed on the moon.

Stay classy.

[tidge]

8 hours ago, battlewraith said:

 

When you start the game, you can barely handle a few enemies. And it's slow. And you have to rest inbetween. In contrast to an enhanced lvl 50 character that can blast the crap out of groups of enemies and has far less downtime. If you look at how people are actually playing the game--it looks to me like a lot of people, if not the majority, want that lvl 50 experience. To the extent that a lot of people will stand around waiting to get on a farm or lvl 50 radio team rather than work their way up through normal mission content. Not to mention the fact that you can get the xp boosters to help you get past those early levels faster.

 

Why? Because people find them too grindy. And it's clearly the pre-50 game because if these people thought post-50 was just as bad, they wouldn't bother. 

And yet people are trying to gaslight me that there is no grind when anyone who has played for a reasonable amount of time can see people trying to skip over it.

 

This wall of exposition offers no evidence that any players wanting around to play level 50 content also want enhancements to be effort-free.

 

9 hours ago, JKCarrier said:

Except that definition applies just as much to the post-50 game as the pre-50 game. If not more so.

 

+1

[battlewraith]

8 minutes ago, tidge said:

This wall of exposition offers no evidence that any players wanting around to play level 50 content also want enhancements to be effort-free.

 

That wall of exposition is an argument, in what's supposed to be a discussion.

The reason I wrote it is that there were people denying that grind is a thing. For anybody. So not only did I have to define grind multiple times, I then had to describe a very familiar reality for anyone who actually pays attention to what other people are doing. 

 

Now that I've done that, you're shifting the goalposts. You're right, I don't know what those players standing around want because I haven't asked them. But your "people-that-don't-play-like-me-are-lazy" mentality has been overruled time and time again in the evolution of this game. People railed for years against farming and pling, but they became cornerstones of the community anyway. And it did not cause the game to fall into ruin. And you haven't shown any evidence that it would. You haven't shown any evidence of anything tbh, other than the fact that you're flush with merits and can kit out characters whenever you like.

[tidge]

1 hour ago, battlewraith said:

Now that I've done that, you're shifting the goalposts. 

 

Ehem. This thread was a discussion about making all stuff available for free on the marketplace... you are the one who derailed it about "grinding."

 

The Live and HC devs explicitly put optional stuff in place for players to use to avoid the things that the devs saw as 'grinding', which include:

• DFB, and introductory level 1 task force
• Multiple-XP boosts, plus extra-XP times, and "Experienced"
• Patrol/Day Job XP (not really optional, but that is a different grief!)
• Exploration badge XP
• Fast travel options (between zones, missions)
• Travel powers at level 4
• The many added extra connection points between zones
• Incarnate XP (and rewards) unlocked without having to do incarnate content
• Alignment changes made trivial
• SG Bases are no-cost, and travel points are all unlocked

Furthermore, the HC devs have lowered the levels at which higher tier (and Epic/Patron) powers can be taken, explicitly to allow that "top tier feel" to happen even sooner... hint, it is below level 50! We also have a full suite of temp attacks, prestige powers, and buffs available at the S.T.A.R.T. vendor.

 

Any/All of these things makes it pretty easy to play sub-50 content, all the way down to level 1.... and it makes it easy to get to level 50 if that is where the content is that people want to play.

 

On top of all this, we can convert merits (which are trivial to get) into PVP/Purple recipes (i.e.not gated behind either content or play time) and ATO/Winter pieces... not to mention every other recipe can be purchased via merits or inf without having to visit AH (or even take the invention tutorial). 

 

Almost everything on the AH itself is fungible, and because of the existence of useful crafting badges for 25/30 and 45/50 IOs, there is no shortage of inexpensive IOs at those levels.

 

TL;DR: the devs and players have different attitudes than the ones you've expressed about both grinding and rewards.

 

The devs even have a server explicitly to test builds (at whatever level) that many players use to see if they'll be happy with a potential character before they invest any effort into it. You want to argue against this, but the devs have provided exactly the thing you claim to want. I know your argument against brainstorm is "boo hoo no one will play with me", but on no other server is a PUG not going to play with you because your character isn't loaded to the gills with Purples/ATOs/Winters/PVP/Signature summons/blah blah fishcakes. And if you are somehow part of a cohort that does require such things... try asking them for free stuff.

 

Nobody here is passing judgement on the way players want to play, or how they build their characters... except you who wants everything to be free and also wants to pass judgement on everybody else who is ok with this fun game's play options and reward structure. Asking for everything to be free is pretty much NOT playing the game.

[skoryy]

@tidge, bless you, but you're spending way too much time arguing with someone with a backhoe and a determination to dig themselves deep enough to find Aaron Eckhart and Hilary Swank.

[battlewraith]

1 hour ago, tidge said:

Ehem. This thread was a discussion about making all stuff available for free on the marketplace... you are the one who derailed it about "grinding."

 

Grinding, which is something you refuse to acknowledge as a thing, is essential to understand why people would want a proposal like this. Yomo, in the first post mentions that there are players who don't like the game's emphasis on earning inf. He suggests as an example making enhancements available as on beta. So about me derailing anything...***** please.

 

After pages of dragging your feet, you post a list of things the devs did to alleviate grind (you left off patrol xp, a reward for not even playing). You stress that this is optional.

 

Well there you go Tidge. They could provide optional vendors for people who want these enhancements--the same way they have for other anti-grind adjustments. You can just ignore them and go along your merry way however you like.

[tidge]

13 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

Well there you go Tidge. They could provide optional vendors for people who want these enhancements--the same way they have for other anti-grind adjustments. You can just ignore them and go along your merry way however you like.

 

The option exists and is called Brainstorm. Oh, you don't like that option because you won't have anybody to show off your PWNZER-L33T build to.

 

Nobody is laughing at anyone's PLed level 50s because they have neither backstories nor enhancements. Such characters get invited to PUGs just like everyone else. This is some arbitrary measure that you are self-applying... and you do this while putting down other players that don't complain about their own choices on how to equip (or not) their characters. You call those efforts grinding, the rest of us call it playing. That you can't recognize this means that you have got such tunnel vision on-top of a judgemental attitude that I can't imagine you having much fun in other aspects of life. City of X is one of the least zero-sum games that exists... because you literally need so little to enjoy it. That you have trouble enjoying even the content you confess to play is either because you are playing the wrong game or you are playing the game wrong.

[Triumphant]

Given how rancorous this topic is becoming, I wonder if it wouldn't have been better to have simply asked for a "thumbs up" emoji if you want enhancements to be free and a "thumbs down" if you want them to stay the same.  Granted, this would only give us a metric for how people that visit the forums feel on this topic, which I suppose is probably not representative of very much of the player base.  But it would serve the same general purpose without all the feather ruffling.

And now, having written this, I've contradicted myself in my reply to Tenmix's post on disabling reactions on the forum.  Ah, well. 😁🤷‍♂️

[battlewraith]

FFS tidge it's not that hard to understand. Planning and executing a build, which is a part of the game I enjoy, is not a flex on other people. Particularly in a game full of longtime players like you who are drowning in inf and could do whatever the hell they wanted. Back in the day, I only played for pvp and I would have to do all the same grind as everyone else just so I could do a fun activity I liked that had very little in the way of material reward. Eventually, developers came along that understood the problem and did something about it. But back in the day there were tidge's running around that made the same arguments: the game is fun. Leveling is fun. Why should they be able to skip stuff just so that they can do...whatever that thing is that I can't relate to.

 

Calling me judgemental while speculating that I don't have fun in other aspects of my life because I disagree with you about a game---LOL what?!?! 

[lemming]

2 hours ago, tidge said:

Exploration badge XP

Slight correction since they now give Patrol XP for the equivalent of +50% XP   (which winds up being more than the XP that used to be gotten)

 

Man this thread is going on and on for something that got jrangered by a dev.

[battlewraith]

2 minutes ago, Triumphant said:

Given how rancorous this topic is becoming, I wonder if it wouldn't have been better to have simply asked for a "thumbs up" emoji if you want enhancements to be free and a "thumbs down" if you want them to stay the same.  Granted, this would only give us a metric for how people that visit the forums feel on this topic, which I suppose is probably not representative of very much of the player base.  But it would serve the same general purpose without all the feather ruffling.

And now, having written this, I've contradicted myself in my reply to Tenmix's post on disabling reactions on the forum.  Ah, well. 😁🤷‍♂️

 

It's the Market section. So this the area of the community least likely to agree with this kind of proposal.

If the game is still here in 5 years, it will be interesting to see what the population is and if the hardliners are still making the same arguments. 

 

[tidge]

6 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

FFS tidge it's not that hard to understand. Planning and executing a build, which is a part of the game I enjoy, is not a flex on other people. Particularly in a game full of longtime players like you who are drowning in inf and could do whatever the hell they wanted.

 

I only have Inf and Merits because the game made it so easy for me to accumulate them. If you enjoy planning and executing builds, and require beaucoup whatevers, Brainstorm is for you. If you are PL-ing up characters... you should be collecting drops along the way. If you are 'executing' characters at level 50, you should be collecting drops as you do so. How you cannot do any of this is a mystery to me. If you are turning over character after character... strip down the ones you are done with. Respecs are plentiful, and I guarantee you will have gotten at least one for free for those unloved level 50s.

 

1 minute ago, lemming said:

Slight correction since they now give Patrol XP for the equivalent of +50% XP   (which winds up being more than the XP that used to be gotten)

 

Correct, and also merits (for collecting all of the ones in most zones that have multiple exploration badges)

[battlewraith]

6 minutes ago, tidge said:

I only have Inf and Merits because the game made it so easy for me to accumulate them. If you enjoy planning and executing builds, and require beaucoup whatevers, Brainstorm is for you. If you are PL-ing up characters... you should be collecting drops along the way. If you are 'executing' characters at level 50, you should be collecting drops as you do so. How you cannot do any of this is a mystery to me. If you are turning over character after character... strip down the ones you are done with. Respecs are plentiful, and I guarantee you will have gotten at least one for free for those unloved level 50s.

 

My assumption would be that you sink a lot of time into this game (or have) and that proportion of time you spend outfitting characters is much less--it would pretty much have to be if you are spending 3 weeks leveling one up. If it were still a retail game, you would be their ideal player.

 

The Brainstorm thing has been responded to, no just by me. You just stick your head in the sand and then repeat it, so there's no point in rehashing the argument.

Yes I get drops and do respecs and all that jazz. There is no mystery to any of this. I simply have an interest in reducing repetitive tasks that I've already done ad nauseam.

And your self interest dictates that other people need to be doing these tasks so that you can make a buck off of it. Things are so so easy to accumulate but you'll argue till your blue in the face to keep people paying for stuff. Methinks the lady doth protest too much.

 

 

 

[tidge]

19 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

I simply have an interest in reducing repetitive tasks that I've already done ad nauseam.

And your self interest dictates that other people need to be doing these tasks so that you can make a buck off of it. Things are so so easy to accumulate but you'll argue till your blue in the face to keep people paying for stuff. 

 

FWIW I sell next to nothing on the market, once I've got the "sell 10" badges for each type... after those it is exclusively recipes I've crafted from drops, salvage (which just piles up) and prismatic aethers (which also drop). You seem to think *I* am persecuting you via the market, and if my posting stuff for 1 inf is the make-or-break for anyone...take that first mission and earn 100 inf from some rando DO drop. It's not like a character doesn't have powers because they aren't slotted(*).

 

I can almost guarantee if you are repeating content ad nauseum, it is your choice. You can skip the intro missions. VEATs and HEATs can quickly change alignments. The market forces aren't dragging you into Tinpex over-and-over. There is a different set of weekly TFs each week that offer increased merit rewards. Each of them is available to your PLed level 50. If your characters can't hang on a PUG weekly TF then I think we are at the point it has become "blame the workman and not the tools". 

 

(*) ...and if it is something like desperately needing an ATO Fiery Orb/Energy Font or a %+2 Mag Hold that requires your precious character vision to be realized... OMGBecky, collect 100 merits from 20 zones.

 

 

[battlewraith]

1 minute ago, tidge said:

OMGBecky

Like OMG BECKY it's only been 20 years, how can be tired of stuff already!

LMAO. 

 

13 minutes ago, tidge said:

FWIW I sell next to nothing on the market,

 

Well that tracks. You got a ton of cash and don't play the market, but you're gonna die on this hill to have your dream of fun preserved for everyone. 

 

The market forces aren't dragging you into Tinpex over-and-over. There is a different set of weekly TFs each week that offer increased merit rewards. Each of them is available to your PLed level 50. If your characters can't hang on a PUG weekly TF then I think we are at the point it has become "blame the workman and not the tools". 

 

From days ago:

 

"My main interest is making new characters. I plan the character in mids and then level them. Probably 75% get pled straight to 50 and the others are a mix of standard missions and PLing. To finance a new build, I run weeklies, Tinpex, Market Crash, radios, or whatever random shit seems to be going on. Also Incarnate stuff. During the Valentines Event I ran that blue wedding on 8 different characters every morning. "

 

It's not a case of "blame the workman and not the tools". It's a case of you wanting to argue for your preferred status quo while being unwilling or unable to respond to any point made to you. Also, inb4 Brainstorm (again).

 

[tidge]

1 hour ago, battlewraith said:

"My main interest is making new characters. I plan the character in mids and then level them. Probably 75% get pled straight to 50 and the others are a mix of standard missions and PLing. To finance a new build, I run weeklies, Tinpex, Market Crash, radios, or whatever random shit seems to be going on. Also Incarnate stuff. During the Valentines Event I ran that blue wedding on 8 different characters every morning. 

 

To quote Stuttering John to Ringo Starr: "What did you do with the money?"

[battlewraith]

33 minutes ago, tidge said:

 

To quote Stuttering John to Ringo Starr: "What did you do with the money?"

Used it for new builds, as it says in the part you quoted,