How would you fix Kinetic Melee?

[JayboH]

Is this currently the worst performing melee set in the game?  Is it the activation times?  How would you change the set if granted the ability?

 

Body Blow

Quick Strike

Smashing Blow

Power Siphon

Repulsing Torrent

Confront

Burst

Focused Burst

Concentrated Strike

 

If I recall correctly, the set works on Stalkers best due to one of their AT enhancement sets granting you the ability to double Build Up/PowerSiphon whenever you want etc.

[BrandX]

I'd give Focused Burst Total Focus level damage.

 

Concentrated Strike would do full crit damage and possibly Energy transfer level damage.

 

Repulsing Torrent could use a damage bump to maybe make it more worthwhile to take and not just as a knockdown power.

 

Could give Focused Burst a hold component, but the damage would likely be enough.

 

Another thought is to make Focused Burst snipe level damage, even if that means locking out snipes in Epics, making it so you don't have two snipes.

[SomeGuy]

2 hours ago, JayboH said:

Is this currently the worst performing melee set in the game?  Is it the activation times?  How would you change the set if granted the ability?

 

Nope. But it's definitely in the race (that "honor" goes to Staff). The set definitely needs to make Power Siphon less of a hassle to work. The stacks need to last longer and give a stronger buff per stack. And Concentrated Strike needs to have it's animation time reduced. Focused Burst needs to have it's animation time reduced also. It's a really good power, but holy smokes does it really wreck whatever momentum you have created. It's great for picking off runners. Make it better at that without completely disrupting your melee flow.

 

Kinetic Melee definitely has some really nice perks for it's secondary effects. The set is just a hassle to make work and it's damage is WAY to lacking to compensate for it, You can actually make KM do better DPS then DM, but it's a lot of work. Granted, DM's performance is pretty piss poor itself, but at least it isn't frustrating. 

 

Like, look at Ice Melee. The set doesn't put up the craziest numbers. Not good numbers, but not bad numbers either. And the set has some really fun mechanics going on. And those mechanics make it worthwhile on any AT it's available on. KM isn't like that. At least on Staff you can roll it on a tanker and just bore things to death. So...maybe KM is the worst set in the game. 

 

My second 50 was a FA/IM tanker. Really fun combo then pre-IOs and I'd imagine even crazier now. The Ice Patch?Burn combo is bonkers good. KM doesn't have a pairing like that.

Edited Sunday at 09:06 PM by SomeGuy

[Maelwys]

Quote

How would you fix Kinetic Melee?

 

[SomeGuy]

3 minutes ago, Maelwys said:

 

 

 

Honorable Mentions:

 

Where the Red Fern Grows

Of Mice and Men

[Maelwys]

16 minutes ago, SomeGuy said:

(that "honor" goes to Staff)

 

Staff was at least capable of being semi-viable as a Hybrid AoE-damage-plus-Utility (built-in -Res, +Res, +Def, plus lots of Proc exploitation opportunities) powerset even before the i28p2's buff to Sky Splitter damage. I'm still a bit bitter about the Tanker Cone arc nerf though... 😝

 

Kinetic Melee on the other hand... well, the most accurate description I've ever heard of that powerset is "prolonged ineffectual spasm".

[MonteCarla]

Could not agree more with:

1. The Animation times on Concentrated Blow and Focuses Burst need to be trimmed.
2. Concentrated Strike not doing extra damage on a critical should be changed.

 

The set's defining features: Power Siphon and the -Damage effects could use a boost as well.

The -Damage effect is around -11% on Tankers, -6% on Scrappers, and lasts typically 5 seconds or so from each hit. The stacking rules are per caster, and possibly per-power?

If we extended the duration and made it per-power, this could become a useful effect. Against rank and file enemies it's not fantastic, but consistently whaling on an AV or GM should apply -30% (scrapper) or -50% (tanker) Damage debuff at least. At the moment you'd be hard-pressed to get 10% debuff with a Scrapper

This won't work so well against AVs who resist their own damage, eg Infernal, so its a very situational effect that should shine when it does apply.

Should a team with several Kinetic Melee characters be able to neuter an AV's damage output? Yeah!

 

Power Siphon is currently: activate, build up stacks with some quick hits, then go to town with your big hits.

The Damage Boost per stack is +31% for scrappers for 10 seconds.

Build Up does +100%, so you need 4 stacks to marginally do better than Build Up. Good luck with achieving that!

The pay off for Siphon: Body Blow, Quick Strike, Smashing Blow, Body Blow, then Concentrated Strike is 20% extra damage over what Build Up would theoretically do, only less common, none of the smaller attacks should miss, and the cognitive load of planning all this. I'd much prefer Build Up to that.

 

This, btw, is why the set works best on Stalkers - they replace Power Siphon with Build Up!

 

To fix this, either:

- make the stacked damage buffs last longer than 10s, so you can build up a 200% buff before delivering your big hits. If you work for it, the pay offs are significant and worth chasing.

or

- make the duration of Siphon Mode longer, or even make it perma-able, either as a click like Rage, or even just have it as an auto power. As long as you keep attacking, you get a flat damage boost that's not quite Build Up levels, similar to Claws with Follow Up.

 

 

Edited Sunday at 11:30 PM by MonteCarla

[BrandX]

1 hour ago, MonteCarla said:

Could not agree more with:

1. The Animation times on Concentrated Blow and Focuses Burst need to be trimmed.
2. Concentrated Strike not doing extra damage on a critical should be changed.

 

The set's defining features: Power Siphon and the -Damage effects could use a boost as well.

The -Damage effect is around -11% on Tankers, -6% on Scrappers, and lasts typically 5 seconds or so from each hit. The stacking rules are per caster, and possibly per-power?

If we extended the duration and made it per-power, this could become a useful effect. Against rank and file enemies it's not fantastic, but consistently whaling on an AV or GM should apply -30% (scrapper) or -50% (tanker) Damage debuff at least. At the moment you'd be hard-pressed to get 10% debuff with a Scrapper

This won't work so well against AVs who resist their own damage, eg Infernal, so its a very situational effect that should shine when it does apply.

Should a team with several Kinetic Melee characters be able to neuter an AV's damage output? Yeah!

 

Power Siphon is currently: activate, build up stacks with some quick hits, then go to town with your big hits.

The Damage Boost per stack is +31% for scrappers for 10 seconds.

Build Up does +100%, so you need 4 stacks to marginally do better than Build Up. Good luck with achieving that!

The pay off for Siphon: Body Blow, Quick Strike, Smashing Blow, Body Blow, then Concentrated Strike is 20% extra damage over what Build Up would theoretically do, only less common, none of the smaller attacks should miss, and the cognitive load of planning all this. I'd much prefer Build Up to that.

 

This, btw, is why the set works best on Stalkers - they replace Power Siphon with Build Up!

 

To fix this, either:

- make the stacked damage buffs last longer than 10s, so you can build up a 200% buff before delivering your big hits. If you work for it, the pay offs are significant and worth chasing.

or

- make the duration of Siphon Mode longer, or even make it perma-able, either as a click like Rage, or even just have it as an auto power. As long as you keep attacking, you get a flat damage boost that's not quite Build Up levels, similar to Claws with Follow Up.

 

 

 

That is something I did forget.  Power Siphon and it's -Damage being weak, but I don't know how how to really improve Power Siphon other than all the stacks to last longer.

Would be nice to see it be considered as effective as Follow-Up and Blinding Feint.

[JayboH]

4 hours ago, SomeGuy said:

 

Nope. But it's definitely in the race (that "honor" goes to Staff). 

 

They just buffed Staff.  

  

EDIT:  It's nice to see some people stopped sleeping on Ice Melee.  Great set.  Reminder that it's tier 9 does the same damage as foot stomp only in a smaller area.

Edited Monday at 01:51 AM by JayboH

[SomeGuy]

1 hour ago, JayboH said:

They just buffed Staff.  

  

EDIT:  It's nice to see some people stopped sleeping on Ice Melee.  Great set.  Reminder that it's tier 9 does the same damage as foot stomp only in a smaller area.

 

 

I definitely helped attribute to the target cap being implemented cause of my FA/IM tanker. I had IM THEN show me it was a sleeper of a set, so yeah....that warms my heart seeing it get more love. I can't remember if you were playing with me then.

[biostem]

Make the siphoning effect inherent to each attack - either as a guaranteed flat amount or a % chance.  Have the buildup power simply push it to a 100% chance.  Maybe trim the pause-like effect some of the powers seem to have between when the animation appears to have completed and the damage actually applies as well.

Edited Monday at 05:21 AM by biostem

[JayboH]

14 hours ago, SomeGuy said:

 

 

I definitely helped attribute to the target cap being implemented cause of my FA/IM tanker. I had IM THEN show me it was a sleeper of a set, so yeah....that warms my heart seeing it get more love. I can't remember if you were playing with me then.

Possible - I've been around since early beta.

 

EDIT:  might have been the same case with me and Assault Rifle.  I was silly enough to brag about the damage numbers after CoV hit and I had an AR/Kin corruptor.  They overhauled the set based around Ignite not long after, when I directly spit Ignite numbers while having siphon speed and fulcrum feeding it.  Something like 700-800 every 4 seconds I think base recharge?  Too long ago to recall hard numbers.

Edited Monday at 05:28 PM by JayboH

[aethereal]

16 hours ago, JayboH said:

They just buffed Staff.  

  

EDIT:  It's nice to see some people stopped sleeping on Ice Melee.  Great set.  Reminder that it's tier 9 does the same damage as foot stomp only in a smaller area.

Ice melee clearly has good mitigation and AoE.  Its weakness is ST (it has Frozen Touch --great -- but then GIS is mediocre, IS is mediocre to bad, and Frozen Fists is atrocious).

Edited Monday at 05:34 PM by aethereal

[BrandX]

19 hours ago, aethereal said:

Ice melee clearly has good mitigation and AoE.  Its weakness is ST (it has Frozen Touch --great -- but then GIS is mediocre, IS is mediocre to bad, and Frozen Fists is atrocious).

 

It's the 5th best ST DPS set.  Just behind Dual Blades by 2 seconds.

[SomeGuy]

1 hour ago, BrandX said:

 

It's the 5th best ST DPS set.  Just behind Dual Blades by 2 seconds.

 

 

Uhhhh according to what? Like, IM isn't bad ST DPS but it isn't THAT good.

[Maelwys]

23 minutes ago, SomeGuy said:

Uhhhh according to what? Like, IM isn't bad ST DPS but it isn't THAT good.

I'm guessing "according to Ston's Melee Powerset Rankings" (which is not optimised for ATO2 and is also out of date since it leans heavily on pre-recharge-nerf Epic Snipes).


 

Edited Tuesday at 02:56 PM by Maelwys

[SomeGuy]

3 hours ago, Maelwys said:

I'm guessing "according to Ston's Melee Powerset Rankings" (which is not optimised for ATO2 and is also out of date since it leans heavily on pre-recharge-nerf Epic Snipes).


 

 

 

I had a very strong suspicion this was going to get referenced. As someone who has played all of the melee types (granted savage and psi melee not extensively...but I do have experience with them) I know that there is a very small chance (I sure haven't found it) to make Ice Melee do ST DPS that well while having the build viable outside of pylon kills. The set can take a LOT of procs. I was actually mucking around with IM yesterday and able to do way faster than Dual Blades, albeit there is zero way I'd venture in to the real world with it like that.

 

In terms of actual viability outside of pylons? Ice Melee is good ST DPS. Definitely not THAT good. It is a really fun set though. It's a really good example to me of a set done overall pretty darn well. If it performed that well everyone would roll Ice Melee considering all the other stuff it can do.

 

Like, I have my own personal data collection info (which I update and share) of accumulated DPS times with many sets. Obviously things come down to the player and their ability, but when you've done this sort of thing as much as I have, and as long, I can literally just look at a class/combo and know WTF is going on when I see a time.

[BrandX]

19 hours ago, SomeGuy said:

 

 

I had a very strong suspicion this was going to get referenced. As someone who has played all of the melee types (granted savage and psi melee not extensively...but I do have experience with them) I know that there is a very small chance (I sure haven't found it) to make Ice Melee do ST DPS that well while having the build viable outside of pylon kills. The set can take a LOT of procs. I was actually mucking around with IM yesterday and able to do way faster than Dual Blades, albeit there is zero way I'd venture in to the real world with it like that.

 

In terms of actual viability outside of pylons? Ice Melee is good ST DPS. Definitely not THAT good. It is a really fun set though. It's a really good example to me of a set done overall pretty darn well. If it performed that well everyone would roll Ice Melee considering all the other stuff it can do.

 

Like, I have my own personal data collection info (which I update and share) of accumulated DPS times with many sets. Obviously things come down to the player and their ability, but when you've done this sort of thing as much as I have, and as long, I can literally just look at a class/combo and know WTF is going on when I see a time.

 

Okay, yes, that listing does mean one is generally going to be focusing on procs, which will have a factor on the build.  However, in the case of Scrappers, I'm not to sure the numbers are that far off.

 

For Scrappers you're putting in 2 ACC/DAM +3 HOs in every attack.  After that all melee attacks can take at least 3 Damage Procs (Touch of Death, Mako's Bite, Gladiator's Strike), which leaves one Proc left to find.  Now there is the one Purple Unique that can fill in one of the melee attacks if multiple of them can only take from melee sets.

 

So, looking at Slash.  4 damage procs & 2 +3 HOs (according to mids) is doing 262.4 damage.  3 damage procs & 3 +3 HOs is doing 256.1.  So a difference of 6.3 damage.  Yes, it would add up over time...HOWEVER should be noted, if one feels the ACC of 2 +3 HOs is enough, that third HO could be a Damage/EnduranceReduction for better end use.  One could also just use a +5 Damage IO for 258.1 damage, so making the damage difference only 4.3 points.

 

And I get that one will generally not build around this style (I don't...want to for some build maybe at some point), as people generally like more survival, I do feel the list gives a good idea of what to expect for all things equal.

 

Now Tankers/Brutes who it says to slot 6 damage procs per attack...the list could look totally different. *nod nod*

[SomeGuy]

38 minutes ago, BrandX said:

 

Okay, yes, that listing does mean one is generally going to be focusing on procs, which will have a factor on the build.  However, in the case of Scrappers, I'm not to sure the numbers are that far off.

 

For Scrappers you're putting in 2 ACC/DAM +3 HOs in every attack.  After that all melee attacks can take at least 3 Damage Procs (Touch of Death, Mako's Bite, Gladiator's Strike), which leaves one Proc left to find.  Now there is the one Purple Unique that can fill in one of the melee attacks if multiple of them can only take from melee sets.

 

So, looking at Slash.  4 damage procs & 2 +3 HOs (according to mids) is doing 262.4 damage.  3 damage procs & 3 +3 HOs is doing 256.1.  So a difference of 6.3 damage.  Yes, it would add up over time...HOWEVER should be noted, if one feels the ACC of 2 +3 HOs is enough, that third HO could be a Damage/EnduranceReduction for better end use.  One could also just use a +5 Damage IO for 258.1 damage, so making the damage difference only 4.3 points.

 

And I get that one will generally not build around this style (I don't...want to for some build maybe at some point), as people generally like more survival, I do feel the list gives a good idea of what to expect for all things equal.

 

Now Tankers/Brutes who it says to slot 6 damage procs per attack...the list could look totally different. *nod nod*

 

 

Those numbers definitely are. I've been playing this game for 21 years (this game is 21 years old). I was heavily involved in the original pylon thread, the secret server's pylon thread, and HC server's pylon thread. I know DPS. I know how to build. It very much is off if you actually play the set outside of maximizing pylon times. I've gotten times with my DB, Claws, and TW characters in the low 40s before. No outside buffs. Hybrid off. No pets. The RNG gods very much smiled on those runs. Those runs were instantly discarded. So to say the numbers there are indicative or what to really expect? With some sets? Sure. Others? God no. Not even close. That part very much worries me cause people that choose those sets based on that information are going to be in for a very rude awakening when they aren't able to even get close to that level of performance. Cause of the fact that: they don't have the skill level yet and the set(s) only perform that well in a bubble. 

 

All in all, Ice Melee is a very good set but it DOES NOT perform that well outside of a bubble. 

 

As for Kinetic Melee...it needs love. So does Dark Melee. And Staff.

[Maelwys]

16 minutes ago, SomeGuy said:

And Staff.

I loves my snooker-queue-wielding Tanker... but yeah. The buff to Sky Splitter's bonus damage helped a smidge; however IMO they could really do with redoing the stances so that they're actually useful for something other than just spamming 1-2-3 combos (which really discourages epic/patron dipping). I'd happily take a Damage Proc baked into the stance forms al-la Brimstone Armor; plus an Arc buff to Guarded Spin and Innocuous Strikes in lieu of raw damage buffs or cast time tweaks to the Staff attacks themselves.

Dark Melee is beloved thematically and has great potential in Soul Drain... but unfortunately half the set is hot garbage and procbombed Touch of Fear is its best AoE.

Kinetic Melee though. Even if you halved the cast time of all its attacks and completely rejigged their ATBE; IMO you'd still be left with a set that is mediocre at best.

[SomeGuy]

33 minutes ago, Maelwys said:

I loves my snooker-queue-wielding Tanker... but yeah. The buff to Sky Splitter's bonus damage helped a smidge; however IMO they could really do with redoing the stances so that they're actually useful for something other than just spamming 1-2-3 combos (which really discourages epic/patron dipping). I'd happily take a Damage Proc baked into the stance forms al-la Brimstone Armor; plus an Arc buff to Guarded Spin and Innocuous Strikes in lieu of raw damage buffs or cast time tweaks to the Staff attacks themselves.

Dark Melee is beloved thematically and has great potential in Soul Drain... but unfortunately half the set is hot garbage and procbombed Touch of Fear is its best AoE.

Kinetic Melee though. Even if you halved the cast time of all its attacks and completely rejigged their ATBE; IMO you'd still be left with a set that is mediocre at best.

 

 

NGL, the change to Staff has me curious what I can pull off with it. I am legit curious how much the changes effect things. Needless to say...I am expecting disappointment with that considering the recent regen buffs. I did give those a very serious go (I am very nostalgic about regen and want the set to be playable to my standards). 

 

You're ideas towards improving Staff are actually really good. The ideas about not just being a straight up damage buff is , i consider, needed. Its to easy to "fix" issues adjusting damage out/in (looking at brutes).

 

Dark Melee is legit one of my favorite sets and I really do wish I never found out the hard data about it's performance. It's....not good. Not good at all. The set, honestly, really is mechanically perfect to me. It's a lot of fun. But by god...it's annoying as hell how much the set depends on Soul Drain. Soul Drain needs to be seriously tweaked. I know EXACTLY what I would do, said it on these forums more then a few times, but the set got changes to Touch of Fear instead (albeit much needed and loved the change to it). But it's funny to me the entire set could be easily made OK by some smart changes to only Soul Drain. You could leave the rest of the set entirely alone and wouldn't have to change setting/slotting AT ALL.

[BrandX]

12 hours ago, Maelwys said:

I loves my snooker-queue-wielding Tanker... but yeah. The buff to Sky Splitter's bonus damage helped a smidge; however IMO they could really do with redoing the stances so that they're actually useful for something other than just spamming 1-2-3 combos (which really discourages epic/patron dipping). I'd happily take a Damage Proc baked into the stance forms al-la Brimstone Armor; plus an Arc buff to Guarded Spin and Innocuous Strikes in lieu of raw damage buffs or cast time tweaks to the Staff attacks themselves.

Dark Melee is beloved thematically and has great potential in Soul Drain... but unfortunately half the set is hot garbage and procbombed Touch of Fear is its best AoE.

Kinetic Melee though. Even if you halved the cast time of all its attacks and completely rejigged their ATBE; IMO you'd still be left with a set that is mediocre at best.

 

I love a lot of the lower end sets, and while I think even at the lower end they're rea;;y not that terrible, but at the same time, I get it...they all get you there but when others can get you there a bit faster...

 

As for your Tanker, did the damage reduction on Tankers not cancel out the Staff improvement?