Kheldians need some love and not reliant on Changeling to be competitive

[Greycat]

On 10/7/2025 at 3:01 PM, MsSmart said:

, but as it said, jack of all trades and master of none.

 

 

... is often better than a master of one. Funny how folks forget the rest of that phrase and how it rather changes the meaning. 

On 10/7/2025 at 11:18 AM, UltraAlt said:

 would also tend to say that Warshades were the first toe-in-the-pond of exploring villainy (Issue 3 release whereas COV was Issue 6). Sure Warshades are "recovering" Nictus which would make them more "rogue" than "villain", but they are obviously leaning more toward the darkside than Peacebringers (by the name alone).

That implies to me that Warshades are really more VEAT than they are HEAT which, again, makes me believe that the Khelidans are more EATs, in general, than HEATs.

 

The villain EAT was initially going to be the Nictus. Which, as I recall, due to player "villains get hero castoffs/second best/no real dev attention" complaint meant they went through and created the (still rather rushed feeling, to me, especially with the arc) Soldiers/Widows. 

 

As far as the rest... 

 

No, I don't use, or like, "changeling" binds. No, I don't feel "not competitive." I'm not here to compete. The only people who should worry about "compatitive" are the... what, 10 people? who PVP. Frankly, I tend to see "this AT isn't competitive!" arguments as ridiculous. (Same with "the team has to carry" nonsense.) Any "competition" is solely in your head. Meanwhile, I can create the characters who match the concepts I have for them and finish missions. (As far as the other post about "ebs/avs in Kheld arcs," the only NPC that ever causes an issue is Nosferatu. That's one, in a series of arcs going from 1-50. No, "solo an AV" is not where we want to balance the game. It's already stupidly easy to get ridiculously overpowered as it is.) 

 

Could they use tweaks? Sure. Newer content's being made with the idea people are IO'ing up and such, which is an issue as far as I'm concerned. What I'd most want to see for both epic sets we have (HEAT and VEAT) would be other-side arcs... though given what I've seen in some recent releases touching on Kheld lore, I'm less enthusiastic about that and would probably just AE something up. 

 

[macskull]

46 minutes ago, Greycat said:

... is often better than a master of one. Funny how folks forget the rest of that phrase and how it rather changes the meaning. 

Often. Not always. And this isn't one of those times.

[Laucianna]

Heya 💛

Just to clear some things up that Kheldians aren't the least played AT atm, that belongs to the VEATs, they are also not overpowered using changeling (Current best PB Pylon time is 15.10 DPS per key press. For comparison Scrapper is 78.807 DPS per key press), however they are also not rubbish without the changeling binds.

Important: They will remove Changeling and no changes should be made until Changeling is removed

Regarding Damage they could go up to 400% cap and a few changes to the recharge time of powers to increase their base damage.

Regarding Animation tweaks honestly all they need to do is make it so when you click a power, you transform into the correct form and fire it off without needing binds/macros. Also adding a "No FX" option to stop the blinding explosion if people want.

Regarding the inherent I used to think the same but it does come in usefulness at times, and sadly the game isn't made for solo play so in my personal opinion things shouldn't be changed for that.

Outside of that, I would like the ability to use power pools in the forms (Within reason, no Boxing Squids etc), the bonuses of the forms to linger after switching out of the form (So for 5-10 seconds you still have the damage boost of squid, or defence of Dwarf) to allow more flow between forms, finally a min FX of the forms where instead of full switching into the dwarf/nova model, it appears over you for a moment before fading so people who don't like the looks of the forms can stay in their base costume.

These are just my opinions, who knows what the devs have planned if anything 😄

[dangeraaron10]

Removing changeling with no massive buffs to compensate would put them at "worse than Sents" territory.  I agree with the sentiment of removing form specific powers and buff the base kit to compensate with Nova and Dwarf having juiced scalers to make up for only being able to use the ranged and Melee attacks respectively.  

 

Maybe even a scaling buff that improves Nova and Dwarf damage the longer they camp the form.  

[Zormico]

On 11/8/2025 at 10:58 AM, Laucianna said:

Heya 💛

Just to clear some things up that Kheldians aren't the least played AT atm, that belongs to the VEATs, they are also not overpowered using changeling (Current best PB Pylon time is 15.10 DPS per key press. For comparison Scrapper is 78.807 DPS per key press), however they are also not rubbish without the changeling binds.
 

never thought of DPS per key press before, but ya, changeling does insane amount of them

 

20 hours ago, Laucianna said:

Scrapper - 28 second pylon, 1,497 DPS, 19 attacks to kill the Pylon 
Peacebringer - 35 second pylon, 1,223 DPS, 81 attacks to kill the Pylon
 

 

Curious who did these?  I saw your video of a ~50 seconds on PB but gez can't imagine either scrappers or PB doing these numbers

[Laucianna]

1 minute ago, Zormico said:

Curious who did these?  I saw your video of a ~50 seconds on PB but gez can't imagine either scrappers or PB doing these numbers

The videos are linked in the text so you can see 😄

[Zormico]

4 minutes ago, Laucianna said:

The videos are linked in the text so you can see 😄

Thanks, clearly blind and/or not turned on the brain yet today.  Those are pretty crazy, was surprised it was post nerfed TW scrap, just made a TW scrap a week ago and while I enjoy it and love the animation while momentum is up that end to the short window of bliss is jarring and PITA. Even more so if you have to spend even a second of that window to move to the next target

[LightMaster]

I think the real issue is not just not dealing enough damage, but it’s moreso a severe syndrome of being a “master of none”. The VEATs compensates a similar concept with having unique combinations.

 

Assault Rifle + Stealth as Bane or AR + Pseudo-Mastermind as Crab.

Psionic + Toxic damage on Widows, with Night Widows having fairly more tankiness and damage, and Fortunatas having more control powers and resistance to mezzes iirc.

Adding into those, what makes the VEATs so much better than the Kheldians is the fact that the VEATs have access of some of the best buff / debuff powers in the game. Toxic Web Grenande for Soldiers, for example, as well as their own Leadership powers alongside the Power Pool version that can be stacked.

 

Were the Nova and Dwarf’s upsides are a bit more amplified and the human’s support powers improved to be much more versatile, viable and less situational, maybe and I’ll say maybe they’ll have better places in at least on teams.

[GM_GooglyMoogly]

Oh hey!  A new Kheldian thread.  I'll put this on my list of things to read.

[Maelwys]

6 hours ago, arcane said:

As a former DPS tester who has tested much more than TW/Bio scrappers and who has seen your own eye popping DPS results, the context I am aware of tells me that the quoted claim is a lie. 

 

I'm also of the considered opinion that:

 

(i) Damage per Button Press is a daft performance metric. Especially when discussing Pylon times.

Katana Brutes press more buttons than Super Strength Brutes ones do, but the latter inflict considerably more damage (both per hit and over time). 

You could however make a valid argument that it's a useful busyness metric. Like how Kinetics is more busy than Forcefield. And I certainly accept that Barflings _{(that's my preferred term for them, since IMO it most accurately describes the sheer magnitude of all the audible and visual vomit)} press a lot of buttons.

 

(ii) This one honestly should be self evident, but here goes:

All primary powersets are not created equal when it comes to damage output. Neither are all secondary powersets.

Characters, once created, cannot change their Primary and Secondary powersets. All KineticMelee/Willpower Scrappers do not have the potential to be as powerful as the best-built Scrapper... but all Peacebringers have the potential to be as powerful as the best-built Peacebringer. And all Warshades have the potential to be as powerful as the best-built Warshade.

This means peak damage potential for Kheldians has two data points. One for Peacebringers, and one for Warshades. But peak damage potential for Scrappers has (21 primaries x 15 secondaries)=315 data points.

And many of those combinations will SUCK, comparatively. Because Primaries like Kinetic Melee and Staff are substantially less damaging than ones like Fiery Melee and BattleAxe. And because Secondaries such as Willpower, Super Reflexes and Regeneration etc. bring very little to the damage output table whereas Radiation Armor, Bio Armor and Stone Armor all bring quite a lot.

There have been a lot of threads comparing the damage output of different Scrapper Primaries, but even a quick glance down the Pylon times sheet suggests that most of them won't come anywhere close to the best Barfling Peacebringer time.

 

-----------------------------

 

FWIW:

 

I consider the Kheldian animation cancelling thing to be an exploit. Although I recognise that the Devs are both aware of it and have intentionally left it as-is temporarily until they have the time to properly rework the AT.

 

I also recognise that Kheldians could do with being buffed in order to considerably raise the level of their damage output whenever they are not using the aforementioned exploit.

 

However I do believe that Kheldian peak single target damage output should NOT be as high after the rework as it is currently. Frankly, I don't believe they should be comparable with Scrappers. Tankers, sure. Brutes, maybe. But not Scrappers or Stalkers.

And my main argument for this belief boils down to two things: Survivability and Nukes. Kheldians have a resistance cap of 85% that is easily permanently attainable, plus Crashless Nukes. Therefore IMO if anything balancewise their overall damage output should theoretically be below Sentinels... however their lack of Mez protection (outside Dwarf and Light Form) is restrictive enough to offset that and place them a little higher. Maybe. But I guess we'll see where things finally land once all the dust settles.

 

Edited 8 hours ago by Maelwys

[arcane]

30 minutes ago, Maelwys said:

 

I'm also of the considered opinion that:

 

(i) Damage per Button Press is a daft performance metric. Especially when discussing Pylon times.

Katana Brutes press more buttons than Super Strength Brutes ones do, but the latter inflict considerably more damage (both per hit and over time). 

You could however make a valid argument that it's a useful busyness metric. Like how Kinetics is more busy than Forcefield. And I certainly accept that Barflings _{(that's my preferred term for them, since IMO it most accurately describes the sheer magnitude of all the audible and visual vomit)} press a lot of buttons.

 

(ii) This one honestly should be self evident, but here goes:

All primary powersets are not created equal when it comes to damage output. Neither are all secondary powersets.

Characters, once created, cannot change their Primary and Secondary powersets. All KineticMelee/Willpower Scrappers do not have the potential to be as powerful as the best-built Scrapper... but all Peacebringers have the potential to be as powerful as the best-built Peacebringer. And all Warshades have the potential to be as powerful as the best-built Warshades.

This means peak damage potential for Kheldians has two data points. One for Peacebringers, and one for Warshades. But peak damage potential for Scrappers has (21 primaries x 15 secondaries)=315 data points.

And many of those combinations will SUCK, comparatively. Because Primaries like Kinetic Melee and Staff are substantially less damaging than ones like Fiery Melee and BattleAxe. And because Secondaries such as Willpower, Super Reflexes and Regeneration etc. bring very little to the damage output table whereas Radiation Armor, Bio Armor and Stone Armor all bring quite a lot.

There have been a lot of threads comparing the damage output of different Scrapper Primaries, but even a quick glance down the Pylon times sheet suggests that most of them won't come anywhere close to the best Barfling Peacebringer time.

 

-----------------------------

 

FWIW:

 

I consider the Kheldian animation cancelling thing to be an exploit. Although I recognise that the Devs are both aware of it and have intentionally left it as-is temporarily until they have the time to properly rework the AT.

 

I also recognise that Kheldians could do with being buffed in order to considerably raise the level of their damage output whenever they are not using the aforementioned exploit.

 

However I do believe that Kheldian peak single target damage output should NOT be as high after the rework as it is currently. Frankly, I don't believe they should be comparable with Scrappers. Tankers, sure. Brutes, maybe. But not Scrappers or Stalkers.

And my main argument for this belief boils down to two things: Survivability and Nukes. Kheldians have a resistance cap of 85% that is easily permanently attainable, plus Crashless Nukes. Therefore IMO if anything balancewise their overall damage output should theoretically should be below Sentinels... however the lack of Mez protection (outside Dwarf and Light Form) is restrictive enough to offset that and place them a little higher. Maybe. But I guess we'll see where things finally land once all the dust settles.

 

This post is reflective of actual reality, and actually contends with things I have said. Amazing job 5 stars. You are the literal first.

 

Lauci maybe I have your specific opinion wrong because you guys act like such a unified collective. Sounds like you’re actually in agreement with me on the part that matters to me. Maybe we’ll hear about it the next time someone tries to sell us that particular false claim. Good stuff.

[GM_GooglyMoogly]

18 hours ago, GM_GooglyMoogly said:

Oh hey!  A new Kheldian thread.  I'll put this on my list of things to read.

 

I finally read through it.  You may notice it is a lot shorter now than it was.

 

Please don't insult each other.

 

[Laucianna]

34 minutes ago, Maelwys said:

make a valid argument that it's a useful busyness metric.

That was the main intent of it tbf, as that factor which is a huge thing for changeling DPS is rarely factored in arguments I see 💛
 

34 minutes ago, Maelwys said:

This means peak damage potential for Kheldians has two data points.

This however I disagree with (I agree when it comes to what you said about scrappers) as just because you have the same build as another changeling doesn't mean you can do the button presses as fast or in the right rhythm, this much is proven as I have had countless people using my exact same build unable to come close to the numbers I can do and that is solely down to how well you can do the button mashing 😄
 

2 minutes ago, arcane said:

you guys act like such a unified collective.

 

Look I know I joke that we are a cult hive mind but I can assure you we are not 😄 We are however hunted for fuel by evil GMs

[GM_GooglyMoogly]

2 minutes ago, Laucianna said:

We are however hunted for fuel by evil GMs

 

Widower is NOT evil . . . just misunderstood . . . and hungry.

[Maelwys]

5 minutes ago, Laucianna said:

This however I disagree with (I agree when it comes to what you said about scrappers) as just because you have the same build as another changeling doesn't mean you can do the button presses as fast or in the right rhythm, this much is proven as I have had countless people using my exact same build unable to come close to the numbers I can do and that is solely down to how well you can do the button mashing 😄

 

That's what we in the trade refer to as a PICNIC error.

 

And less tongue-in-cheek: Sure... but TBF, that argument also holds true (albeit possibly to a lesser extent) for many Scrapper players who have fat finger syndrome or slower reflexes or even server tick alignment and network lag (as my own testing with Gaussian/Scrapper ATO2 timings has proven!). So I think if we're talking about and trying to compare performance between more than one build then we have to consider that the character is capable of hitting those numbers, even if the physical hardware (or "physical wetware", in the case of the player!) is sometimes not.

 

I'd consider all that another reason to expedite the Kheldian rework, frankly, since whenever damage output is being properly time gated by Arcanatime it inevitably has more leeway for a little bit of "wetware lag".

[arcane]

On 10/6/2025 at 9:55 AM, macskull said:

At the end of the day, if an archetype that is at least somewhat supposed to be focused around dealing damage needs to rely on an exploit to achieve performance comparable to a mediocre Scrapper, there’s a problem with that archetype.

To put it another way:

 

At the end of the day, due to Kheldians’ access to 85% res caps and crashless nukes, I am basically only okay with this happening if the word “mediocre” is in fact truthful. And the basis of my stance is that I don’t believe it to be truthful. It doesn’t pass the common sense smell test to anyone who understands how much 700 DPS is in this game. The most benign explanation I can think of is that the people that make this claim are such efficient powergamers that by now they genuinely forget that people play Scrappers that aren’t Bio Armor + High DPA Primary.  

[Kaika]

Laucianna summed up my opinions on a future Kheldian change fairly well. I do think though their single target peak shouldn't be as high as scrappers or stalker. Sentinels would likely be a good place to aim as they share alot of the same traits (Survivable, ranged capabilities, Nukes) but also have more versatility and utility. I do however think that at the moment, without changeling, they are the weakest AT in the game, almost unquestionably. They simply lack the raw damage on most of their kit, have to deal with KB that clashes with their melee kit, and lack good sources of mez protection(even with light form) which is practically a death sentence vs many groups. This doesn't mean they aren't functional or can't accomplish anything noteworthy, both can easily maintain a 85% res cap and that on it's own is enough to out-survive most things. I just think the fact that the ability to instantly animation cancel their attacks doesn't make the overpower in the eyes of the devs should speak volumes. Even so I don't think any AT in this game is "Weak" so even if I think they are the weakest overall it's not that bad.

 

I can completely understand though why someone wouldn't want a changeling on their team though, they cover the area they are in in particle effect, constant loud noises and (if not turned off) constantly shake the screen. It's not a ideal solution but it's fairly in line with the potential of other ATs, and it is NOT easy to pull off well and honestly it's just kinda nice seeing Khelds preform well. It's also really fun, I'll definitely miss it once it's gone, but I understand. I'm hopeful for a rework but I can understand why it would take a good while, the AT isn't exactly super popular and the task of actually reworking them would be pretty big compared to some other under-preforming sets, the sheer amount of attack powers would be difficult to balance, that wouldn't need nearly as much work.

Edited just now by Kaika