Puma

This, of course, ignores that sometimes, changes are BAD changes coming from a flawed assumption or understanding. Those changes don't make things better. They make them worse.

I hear what you're saying but I just need to state, on the record, how strongly I disagree with you. First, I can't name a single archetype I have played in this game (and I've played them all, including some not even available on this server) that I haven't been able to solo with. Some powersets, sure, but not a single archetype. For you to say some can't solo is just...well...wrong. I'm sorry but it demonstrably is. By the way, I have a few single pet Masterminds I'd LOVE to show you, because, while they aren't the best thing ever, they do damn well and didn't need anything designed specifically for them and their playstyle. Second, you have to understand that many people solo out of necessity, so you really need to get over this idea that people just do it because it's somehow easier. When you create content that is by design not really meant to be soloable by the general player, you are intentionally excluding the people who CAN'T reliably team because it doesn't fit their lifestyle. Your attitude toward "City of Lone Wolves" is dismissive and honestly, I think you're way off base. Third, if you feel some archetypes aren't performing as shiny on teams, the answer isn't to suddenly start making enemies and missions specifically tailored to them, especially if it makes others suffer without them. We all know how annoying it became when you still needed various specific archetypes for Barracuda once the novelty wore off. It didn't increase the playability for your players, it lowered it (until iPowers made that issue obsolete). Instead, a much better approach is what was done with Defenders. Change them to better help a team AND better solo. This is still the approach I wish you all had taken with tankers instead of just making them AoE brutes 2.0. This actually would increase the amount of people willing to play them because suddenly they CAN solo and yet, when they team, they can still contribute. There are a ton of ways to do this that I think are relatively easy if you ever want to discuss it. Especially for Controllers, Dominators, and Masterminds. No one here is saying that you should design content that every POWERSET COMBO on every archetype can solo. But like the changes to defense, you all seem to be taking some pretty big right turns that are moving the game in a direction that appears to be penalizing a lot of players, for reasons that I think boil down to a playstyle you're pushing that is both out of date with most modern games AND one CoH had and moved away from for very good reasons. You will drive people to other servers, or to just finally walk away from a 15+ year old game. Tread carefully.

Can you elaborate on the "team composition" idea here? Are the devs moving in a direction where we return to needing (or at least desiring) specific types of team makeups to run future content casually? That would suddenly make a LOT of the changes being proposed make more sense. It would also concern me greatly. As does the comment that "all content is team content". That is not and never has been the design of CoH. As was pointed out, SOME content was designed specifically as team content, and if all content were expected to be team content, that would not have been necessary. CoH has always allowed soloing by default, save very clearly defined exceptions, and always should. Also, +1 to the "restricting it to level 54" is a bad move. It's actually wasting resources, putting all of this effort into testing and developing the content just to have a very small percentage of the player characters have access to it. Not even just incarnates, but T4 incarnates. If this game were being developed at a pace that could do that and develop much more, it would make more sense. But it isn't. So I'll ask...what is the perceived BENEFIT of restricting it to 54s, that outweighs the advantages of having another way for non-fully incarnated toons to progress toward their incarnate powers, and have a larger pool of players enjoy it? Maybe there is some that we just haven't though of but you have. It seems weird that at the same time we're trying to get people out of the AE to get their incarnate powers we're limiting content that they could use to get them outside of AE. I can tell you that if this drops with content restricted to t4 incarnates, you'll be motivating more people to do the AE shortcut to get there just so they can run it and see what it's like, since many are starved for new content. *shrug*

The badge is for participating in the poll not testing. As for "no secret cabal influencing where HC goes...I mean technically the Devs ARE a secret cabal. We dont have elections to those positions. But again, that's just how things work. As for the polling...I don't understand. These volunteers are trying to make the server as positive and successful as they can. How would the community having a clear say in what they think that would entail be a BAD thing? Remember that things don't come to testing until a TON of work has already gone into them. At that point a Dev has committed to it, and its HARD mentally and emotionally to change course. It would make MUCH more sense if they had a roadmap that the player base had input on so they knew that at the very least, the direction they headed when they bring it to testing is one people are expecting and generally support. I work in education. I have for 20 years. Ive worked for administrators who get things in their own head, work to come up with directions on things to "make the institution better" and then spring it on the staff to hammer out after the fact, only to find their entire approach or direction was either flawed, unneeded, or would actually make the staff and students LESS happy. I've also worked with administrators who instead ask the staff and students and families AHEAD of time what the issues are, where they'd like to see change etc and then build plans based on that. And I can say that in my anecdotal experience, that is ALWAYS more successful both in creation AND in outcomes.

Ok, I'm fairly certain that Thunderspy has serious farming. I play mostly on Cake New Dawn, but when I've gone to Thunderspy I always find teams and see offers for Farming, etc.

The Devs definitely listen to everyone. Ive seen first hand that they make changes before things even come to HC testing based on player feedback. I've seen them develop powersets like Feral and go back and forth for months trying to figure out how to find compromise. I've seen them attempt reworking Sentinels, and try multiple suggestions from players. But they also weigh suggestions from people differently. Some players DO carry more weight with the Devs because they have been around forever and a relationship has been built. This is natural and you'll find it everywhere. Sometimes it's annoying, and it can actually lead to bad design at times because often those most likely to do extensive testing/be close to the devs are going to be more likely to be "cheer lead" and cut slack on things a Dev wants that the general population DOESN'T. But that's life. The issue is, some Devs really have their own specific vision for how the game should work, etc. and it takes a LOT of wrangling from what people would call the "inner circle" to keep them from implementing it all. Which...again...is nothing new to CoH. That's been happening since it started, and different visions from different Devs over time proved it. I'm not sure pointing to Electrical Affinity, a powerset created by these Devs, as an example of a "history of not coming from the forums" is rather effective. And it's a valid question why, when the Devs know there is pent up demand or some specific sets and archetypes, Devs are working on side projects that they like instead. But again, that is their prerogative. I dont know that "split down the middle" is really accurate about AE. It sounds like, from this thread and others, a small but vocal group is unhappy and wants changes but most seem to be OK with things as they are. And as for new arcs, etc....I have to say that the Dev they have in charge of creating new arcs right now is amazing. She seriously works HARD to get player input, even down to the vision of villain groups, and makes changes based on player feed back quickly, and even with an air of thankfulness for the opinions, not resistance to them. If I had a Gold Star, that Dev would get it. What Id actually LOVE to see from this sever is a large scale set of polling done to see what the current HC players feel about the state of the game, the direction they'd like to see it go, AND where they'd like to see resources focused, down to specific powersets, and have he Devs publicly respond with a long term roadmap. They did a minor one a while ago, but I want one with enough detail and specifics to give actual, usable data. I would help them create the damn thing. But find out if they Devs overall vision matches most of the players', and if so, let the players know where you're HOPING to go over the course of the next several issues (generally) and if not, see how to better make them align. Maybe the Devs REALLY DO think that some of the game's mechanics need a modernization and rebalancing even if the population doesn't, but then maybe the devs could say "but lets also start giving them x while we do that, to try and meet in the middle. X of course, being Guardians and a Moon Base zone. 😉 I think that could go a long way to easing a LOT of the conflict every time a patch comes out. It would seem less "distance" and the Devs would have an actual external thing to point at and show that they're trying to satisfy the players by doing what they're doing in a way everyone can see. And you could encourage people to participate in it by not just setting the link here in the forums but by offering a badge or temp power in game reward for completing it.

Maybe I'm getting Thunderspy and Rebirth confused. I thought Rebirth was basically the "We kept it just like live" server and Thunderspy was the one with guardians, etc.

I meant population size between servers. Homecoming had a HUGE head start. It was the "secret server" that got the buzz once the game became public again, and so it instantly got thousands of people. what I was talking about were "shards" on HC. Make one of them a "farming shard" or a "no-farming" shard and see, in our own population, how that plays out.

Cake New Dawn will grant you any level you want, instantly, and also has a robust level of farming. It's a much smaller population, though. Mainly it's people who've left homecoming over time due to the "balancing" done here. New Dawn's version of P2W has a token that lets you autolevel to whatever level you want. Thunderspy has a lot of farming but I don't think it has any sort of insta-50 ability. I'm not sure you can go with "population size" as a pure measure though, since Homecoming got a huge head start and a ton more publicity, and still is the first real server that comes up on a Google search for City of Heroes currently (I just checked). It's basically a "McDonalds vs Five Guys" at that point. Even if Five Guys offers a much better burger that its customers all rate better, it just can't compete with McDonald's exposure at this point, even if McDonalds's own customers rate their burgers lower.

Im not sure it WOULD need to be locked from transfers. Because if we find that that server suddenly has a lot of transfers to/from over and over, that alone tells you people WANT to use AE the way we've been using it...even those who join a non-AE server initially.

Interesting experiment, if possible? Make one shard the "farming" shard where AE is in no way nerfed. Let the feet do the talking, and see just how "popular" or "unpopular" farming really is.

What you just said is entirely redundant, and it suggests you don't understand why making changes based on anecdotal reports is a bad idea.

So a team running radio missions, a team running a contact in Port Oaks, and a team running an ITF, and a team running a Lambda trial, and a farmer in the AE should all be receiving the same balance of rewards? How on earth would that even work? And at that point, wouldn't farmers just move to the easier route of speed running the easiest TFs we have? Which happened, by the way...remember when everyone was speed running Katie Hannons for the merits?

Monsanto begs to differ.

Well, I know you're a farmer, so 2 hundredytrillion inf, which I hear can be made in 10 minutes in the AE by any Emp/Trick Arrow defender you want.

1. As has been pointed out, by me, it is ALSO one reason for player retention. I would like you to give me actual data to back up the assertion that AE farming has any noticeable impact on player retention numbers. If you can't, then please stop making this claim as if it's fact. 2. Your entire hypothetical about what a "new player sees" is ridiculous and frankly condescending. First, I would wager a large amount of money that VERY FEW people coming to HC are people who never played CoH. Second...is this the only game you've ever played? I mean, I played TSW when CoH was shut down, as we well Champions, etc. Im playing Outriders right now. And in all of them, I got shortcuts. Heck, I'd look up shortcuts online, join with established players who would help, etc. In Outriders right now I'm basically "farming" a few select initial map moments to get loot drops for better weapons. Never once was I stupid enough to NOT understand that there was more to the game. Neither are the new players on HC. Seriously...your hypothetical is hyperbolic at the least, and more likely, just outright wrong and built around your own feelings about the issue and how dumb you think farming is and the people who do it are. I could just as easily come up with some argument that outside of farming, "New players log in to a game about being a super hero and what do they see? They see that they can only do like one or two attacks and a normal street mob can kill them or take five minutes to fight. They want to quit because that's not very super heroic and feels really slow. Then they join a DFB and think the entire game is just running through sewer maps with a group hitting stuff randomly until you come to an EB, and people start yellow not to hit anyone but him, or hit everyone else BUT him, and get back because you didn't know one of your new attacks was an AoE and cost them something called a "badge", whatever that is. So you quit and never come back." It would be just as absurd and condescending as your hypothetical. 3. As has been pointed out by MANY in this thread with their OWN first hand experience, PLing and AE farming has POSITIVELY impacted the health and longevity of the HC community as some of us who are bored to tears with the established content that we've running hundreds of times already can shortcut the parts we don't and can log in and easily feel "super" for a while when hanging with friends in a farm and try out more of the myriad combos of unique characters that are the game's real strength. And since THOSE players ALSO contribute and donate to keep the servers running, they are just as important.

Then you'd have to deal with kill all ITFs too, because they are exactly the same. And lets talk about just how unfair it is that people run the newer DFB and DIB Sewer trials on their newbies and get levels so much faster than I do running missions in hollows. It's just SO UNFAIR that they get oversized returns for that!

They have explained to you multiple times that the AE actually has LOWER rewards vs other content on a kill by kill basis. The difference is simply that the rewards coming faster because you aren't waiting to form teams, running to missions, and can simply do the killing in fast mobs and reset. You just refuse to acknowledge that your question is faulty and keep asking it.

Especially when we admit that a chunk of that playtime spent in AE farms is played AFK by many people doing it, which means you won't get a 1 to 1 transfer from AE playtime to non-AE playtime. I can login and have a friend PL me while I go do the dishes or mow my lawn via the AE. If AE was removed, those minutes of playtime would disappear, they wouldn't suddenly have me sitting there running a Maria Jenkins arc.

Oh, I forgot to add: The most common way I use the AE for PLing? I PL a new character to 50, slot them, and then use them for regular game content by exemplaring down. But that way I get to pick and choose what I want to play and not have to slog through all of the crap I don't with them along the way just because they need the levels. Also...I end up not wasting a month trying out a combo set only to find once it hit the 30s it really sucks and needs to be shelved, etc. So not even all AE PLing means you have no one running content. It just means, for some, that that isn't how they gained their levels originally.

I mean, I can only speak for myself, but I can say for a fact that the reason I've been playing more on other servers is because some of them have embraced that the game is really old and the content has been done a million times, so it's mostly the new powerset combos and archetypes that are fun to play around with. They also make it easy to get those up to speed, even if many would consider it "too easy." I'm not saying HC needs to do the same, but definitely forcing players to go to SLOWER routes to play the same content would drive more like myself away and to those other servers more. So at the very least, AE Farming is KEEPING some of us around that would likely go elsewhere if it were seriously altered. How many either way? Who knows. That's where the assumptions come in.

Because there isn't any way to really answer it. It's actually a trick question. If I say it should be "25% better", then the question becomes "why"? If I say it should be "25% worse", it's the same question. So the REAL question we should be asking is "what is wrong with the status quo and why should be it be changed. What OBJECTIVE metrics are we using that right now, it's bad, and people who are currently enjoying it are wrong, while people who are unhappy are right. And if there IS no objective measurements for that, then it's all subjective, at which point we should probably say "OK, so if we're going to make changes from the status quo that will negatively impact a segment of the player base's playstyle, we're doing it for purely subjective reasons to make other players happier."

Flea, I take the same farmer to PI and run Harvey Maylor Demon map on repeat at +4x8. Am I REALLY getting THAT much less or putting in THAT much more effort than my own fire farm map? And most importantly, does it REALLY matter to anyone else?

Lets parse this out a bit. If I rolled an ice/sonic blaster and played nothing but AE arcs, by myself, how would I get to level 50 any faster than if I rolled that same blaster in AP and ran mission arcs? I mean...I guess travel time and all, but that's it. UNLESS we're talking about farming. At that point, the issue isn't AE, it's farming. And as has been pointed out, people farmed LONG before AE, and to farm well in AE takes you creating and planning a character and levelling that character to point it can farm and farm well for a very specific kind of map. You know, we used to do that before the AE as well...for that Harvey Maylor Demon Farm in PI. But people will PL you in the AE so it's faster, you say? Well...they can do that out of AE as well. And have, historically, using many different missions and farms. So I could just as easily have someone PL my ice/sonic blaster in PI running a demon farm, too. Is it a little slower? Sure. But we're talking a minor difference, really. We've done things, historically, to try and lessen this, like XP throttling (remember that weird MARTY thing they did?) and it just isn't worth the effort, in my opinion. Many of us are bored with the game's missions, and it's trying out new powerset combos and builds we enjoy, and the AE and farming lets us do that at a pace that keeps our interest, instead of destroying it. If people are playing AE to the point that you can't get a team for what you want to play, I'm, sorry. But honestly, you have no right to force them to want to play differently just so you can have a team.