BlackSpectre

I feel so left out… I WANNA BE REPORTED!! ingrates. 😉

So a MoBAF run is where the league attempts to get ALL of the badges that BAF awards in 1 run... the only badge we got was the debt badge! Let's see... what went wrong? 1) The tanks (there was at least 1 on each team) allowed the AVs to move far away from their spawn points. So that nixed the Gotta Keep 'em Separated badge. It also killed a bunch of players because they were so spread out chasing the AVs. 2) The league could not stop attacking when the AVs got to 5% health. That nixed the Strong and Pretty badge. We ended up abandoning the idea of a badge run, and just moved the AVs to the tennis courts like normal. Do you think the league killed the AVs at the same time? NOPE! The AVs re-spawned again 5 times!!! The league was able to kill the AVs at the same time in the end, with only 2 minutes to spare before the entire BAF timed out and failed. IT WAS CRAZY!!! I swear, part of me suspects there were some griefers on that league! Otherwise, well, the alternative just makes me too sad for humankind. 😉

Follow up: I did find out. For incarnate trials, the reward merits are tied to the drop tables. Basically anywhere there was an astral merit, 2 reward merits were added.

Here are the trials and their estimated median completion times calculated from the reward merits formula. If you happen to know the average times to complete these trials, please let us know and post them! Hero Trials Trial Name Reward Merits Median Completion Time Player Completion Time Death From Below 0 Reward Merits 11 min 11 min Cavern of Transcendence 8 Reward Merits 5 min 5 min Drowning in Blood 2 Reward Merits 8 min Terra Volta 27 Reward Merits 82 min Terra Volta 20 Reward Merits 61 min Abandoned Sewers Trial 28 Reward Merits 84 min Eden Trial 6 Reward Merits 20 min Terra Volta 20 Reward Merits 61 min Market Crash 20 Reward Merits 61 min Cathedral of Pain 11 Reward Merits 35 min Villain Trials Death From Below 0 Reward Merits 11 min 11 min Drowning in Blood 2 Reward Merits 8 min Tree of Thorns 14 Reward Merits 44 min Tree of Thorns 14 Reward Merits 44 min Tree of Thorns 15 Reward Merits 47 min Market Crash 20 Reward Merits 61 min Cathedral of Pain 11 Reward Merits 35 min I should mention what a median is vs a mean or average. Given a list of a bunch of times, the median is the time that happens to be right in the middle. So let's say you have these times: 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 5, 8, 55. The median would be 2. Whereas the average or mean is 8.44 (76 divided by 9). The median is often a better measure of the central tendency of the group as It is not skewed by exceptionally high or low values, which is what the devs use to calculate reward merits.

Oh, You mean to I should post this over in the beta threads. Got it! Thanks.

Hi, I was wondering if anyone happened to have the formula for how to calculate the amount of reward merits for incarnate trials? Maybe a dev? The completion times below that are based on the formula for normal, non-incarnate trials is obviously way off the mark, which makes sense since incarnate trials are a different animal than normal trials. Besides, incarnate trials didn't award Reward Merits until Homecoming's Issue 27 Page 4, which is where I got the amount of reward merits for each trial. Looking over the number of reward merits and comparing them to @Oklahoman’s trial completion times, it actually looks like a 1 to 1 ratio between reward merits and time. Meaning, 1 reward merit for each minute spent to complete the trial (60 merits per hour). Do you guys agree? NAME REWARD MERITS COMPLETION TIME (for normal trials) @Oklahoman Completion Times Behavioral Adjustment Facility Trial 18 55 min 20 min Lambda Sector Trial 20 61 min 12 min (speed run) 20 min (badge run) Keyes Island Reactor Trial 18 55 min The Underground Trial 40 118 min TPN Campus Trial 30 90 min 20-25 min Minds of Mayhem Trial 30 90 min Dilemma Diabolique Trial 30 90 min 20-25 min The Magisterium Trial 22 67 min 20 min Devs, the patch notes mention that "For Incarnate Trials we'll be adding a completion bonus reward of Reward Merits on-top of the current standard Empyrean/Astral Merit rewards valuing the total of what the standard conversion would've amounted to. Meaning you'll get the same number of Empyrean/Astral Merits as you were before Page 4 but also get the following on-top" Let's use the BAF trial as an example. In BAF, the most a player could possibly earn is 9 astral merits per run (it's typically 5-6 merits in most runs). The conversion ratio from astral merits to reward merits was 1 for 2, or 5 astral merits for 10 reward merits. 9 x 2 = 18. That checks out. So my question is really "Is this how incarnate trial reward merits were calculated or were they calculated base on the average completion time?" Thanks!

@Oklahoman do you happen to have completion times for these trials? Keyes Island Reactor Trial The Underground Trial Minds of Mayhem Trial

After looking over the reward merits for incarnate trials, and comparing them to typical completion times given by players, it looks like the reward merits for incarnate trials are awarded in a 1 to 1 ratio. Meaning, 1 reward merit for every 1 minute of the average completion time, or 60 reward merits per hour. If interested, you can see the data over at this post.

I previously used the 30 reward merits per hour rate that I originally gleaned from playing the game, but I didn't do any research on reward merits. It dawned on me that some of the variance might be due to awarding different amounts of reward merits based on the class of the task, and I was right. That is the case. All it took was a search through the wiki, and then perusing through about 50 pages of a thread on the original COH forums. Information from the Wiki on how the live devs calculated reward merits is below: Here's the hourly rate by class: Task Forces give an average of 1 merit every 3 minutes of average time (20 merits an hour) **This is incorrect. The ratio is about 1 merit for every 3.7 minutes of average time (16 merits an hour) as mentioned by Synapse in a correction. Actually, the ratio is more like 1 merit for every 3.75 minutes of average time (16 merits an hour) as born out by the official formula after the TimeModifier is factored in. Trials give an average of 1 merit every 2.5 minutes (24 merits an hour) **This is also inaccurate. The ratio is 1 merit for every 3 minutes of average time (20 merits an hour) as born out by the official formula Story Arcs give an average of 1 merit every 7.5 minutes (8 merits an hour). **This is also inaccurate. The ratio is about 1 merit for every 6 minutes of average time (10 merits an hour) as born out by the official formula The reason for this major difference is due to the considerable time and effort Task/Strike Forces can take to set up and complete, so naturally these tasks grant a much greater reward. Here's the formula the live devs used to determine merit rewards: (MedianTime / MPM) * TaskModifier * TimesRunModifier * Rounded TimeModifier + ArtificialModifiers Decimals in the result are dropped off (ie: the result is rounded down). MedianTime: The datamined median time to complete the task MPM: The desired Minutes per Merit, currently 3.7 TaskModifier: 1.5 if the task is a raid, 1.2 if the task is a trial, 1.0 if the task is a Task Force or Strike Force, and 0.6 if the task is a Story Arc TimesRunModifier: 1.0 if the task has been run enough times for the developers to be comfortable with the datamining, 0.6 otherwise TimeModifier: A percentage merit bonus equal to the median time divided by 20 (ex: the Synapse TF has a MedianTime of 194 minutes. 194 / 20 = 9.7, rounded up to 10% bonus) ArtificialModifier: Manually added bonuses or penalties to a given task; from Synapse: From Synapse: What I've used this field here in the past was to round out some villain strike forces that weren't granting enough merits for a random roll. For example: When merits were first introduced in Issue 13 beta the Temple of the Waters SF would have normally only granted 23 merits. However, I wanted players who completed this task to be able to purchase a random taskforce roll (which was then 25 merits, now it's 20) so I added a +2 bonus in this field. I've seen a number of players wonder why certain tasks (namely villain SFs) not have their merit numbers increase. This is because after the new data rolled in, I removed the bonus from this field if the task offered enough merits for the random roll. Example The Statesman Task Force has a datamined median completion time of 133 minutes. (133 / 3.7) * 1.0 * 1.0 * 1.07 + 0 = 38 merits

INCARNATE TRIAL MERIT REWARDS AND PLAYER COMPLETION TIMES ** The amount of merit rewards for incarnate trials are not calculated based on the medium completion time. Instead, reward merits are linked to the drop tables. Essentially, for every astral merit dropped, 2 reward merits are awarded. For every empyrean merit dropped, 10 reward merits are awarded. So completion times for incarnate trials cannot be calculated based on merit rewards. NAME REWARD MERITS @Oklahoman Completion Times Behavioral Adjustment Facility Trial 18 20 min Lambda Sector Trial 20 12 min (speed run) 20 min (badge run) Keyes Island Reactor Trial 18 35 min The Underground Trial 40 45 min TPN Campus Trial 30 20-25 min Minds of Mayhem Trial 30 35 min Dilemma Diabolique Trial 30 20-25 min The Magisterium Trial 22 20 min Incarnate trials didn't award Reward Merits until Homecoming's Issue 27 Page 4.

Over on another thread reward merits were raised as a method of determining the completion time for task forces. As I've said before the resulting times really don't reflect how long it takes to complete the task forces. I did this analysis 3 years ago, but I decided to re-create it so that everyone could see the data who cared to do so. The amount of reward merits for each task force was taken from the Wiki. TASK FORCE REWARD MERITS TO COMPLETION TIMES ** Calculated based on the formula in the post below which is also found at the Wiki. NAME CONTACT REWARD MERITS MEDIAN COMPLETION TIME @uun Player Times The Rule of Three Positron 11 41 min 20-30 Dam Heroes Positron 15 55 min 20-30 The Fall of the Clockwork King Synapse 58 197 min 60-90 A Clamor for the People Penelope Yin 20 73 min 20-30 The Sky is Falling Admiral Sutter 22 80 min 40-50 The Kheldian War Moonfire 32 113 min 30-45 Citadel's Children Citadel 40 140 min 45-60 The MegaMech Cometh Ernesto Hess 19 70 min A Tangled Plot Katie Hannon 26 93 min 20-30 Following Countess Crey Manticore 32 113 min 45-60 (90-120 for kill all) Soul of the Woodsman Numina 36 127 min 40-50 Time's Arrow Imperious 26 † 93 min 15 (speed run) 45-60 (kill all) Explorers and Exploiters Dr. Quaterfield 122 381 min The Legend of Ruladak Sara Moore 63 211 min The Saga of Faathim Justin Augustine 42 147 min The Saga of Lanaru Faathim the Kind 73 243 min Ms. Liberty Task Force Ms. Liberty 38 † 133 min The Lady Grey Task Force The Lady Grey 37 † 130 min Return of the Reichsman Dr. Kahn 20 † 73 min 15 (speed run) 45-60 (kill all) Alpha Strike Apex 40 140 min 15 The Praetorian Offensive Tin Mage Mark II 40 140 min 15 *** These times are estimates because they lack the last variable in the formula, "ArtificialModifiers", which players don't have access to. **** Keep in mind that these median completion times were data-mined back at the end of 2009. How long it takes to complete a task force might have changed between then and now. I'll re-create the same data for trials next.

Not at all. Just trying to help fellow players have a better idea of what they’re getting into time-wise when contemplating doing a TF. Everything else in this thread is a side conversation, more or less. Our volunteer devs are doing a fantastic job. Any criticism of a game mechanic is not meant to criticize… well, anyone. My apologies if anyone felt otherwise. P.S. I went ahead and re-created the reward merits to completion times for task forces and posted it over on this thread so you can see the data for yourself.

Hey! There’s a very similar thing going on in BAFs… not knockback but “Move away on red rings”. Some players get so upset at other players for not moving away when they have 2 red rings on them. Moving away when hit with 2 red rings more often than not has the same effect as knockback. People who have red rings generally have the AVs’ aggro. If they move, the AVs move… out of location based debuffs and AOE damage, spreading out the league away from AOE buffs, and can end up creating all sorts of havoc that can kill the entire league. it is far more desirable and safer to keep the AVs stationary than it is to avoid being sequestered by the red rings. Years ago I had some leagues be wiped by the red rings, but it’s only a danger for weak, under-powered leagues. These days finding a weak league is rare. And it’s even more important for weak leagues to keep the AVs stationary so that the full force of their location based attacks, debuffs, and buffs are added to the combat. If moving away will drag the AV with you, then stay put. Do you want to move away from the rest of the league if you have 2 red rings on you? Sure, as long as you can also make sure the AV stays put. Doing both, moving away and keeping the AVs stationary, is possible, but it’s the very rare player who can do it apparently. How to do it? if you fly, go straight up. Nightstar might follow, but usually by then she’s been grounded. use ninja jump or something similar to quickly bounce over the AV back and forth, from side to side if you have aggro. This will make the AV turn to face you, but it will remain put. If you’re a tank and want to keep the aggro, you can even taunt while bouncing back and forth. You’ll be sequestered eventually, or you can stop taunting and hope the aggro wears off fast so you can get back into the fray. in general, if you can think of a way to move away from the league while keeping the AVs stationary, then do it. Otherwise, just weather the red rings. It’s more important to keep the AV’s still…. And stop getting upset at people who don’t move away when they have double rings!

Sadly that’s not the case. Originally, that was the live devs’ intention, to link the amount of reward merits to the amount of time it took to complete the task force, trial, story arc, etc. My first attempt to determine times for task forces was to use reward merits to calculate the average completion times, but the resulting times were all over the place and did not reflect how long the completion times actually were. I did this about 3 years ago and since discarded the info I gathered as useless. in general, one thing I concluded was that the merit/time ratio was 30 reward merits per hour. This ratio fits many things in the game, but at some point the devs stopped using it to determine the amount of reward merits. More than likely they just kept the reward merits for prior tasks the same, and then diverged with new tasks. So not even the 30 reward merits per hour is not consistent. Fundamentally, linking reward merits to time is unfair and in general not a good idea. Some players complete tasks faster or slower than other players. Does that mean the players that take the most time to complete should earn the most reward merits and players that do it faster earn less? Or should it be flipped around so that players who are able to complete tasks faster earn more rewards? Don’t we want to reward players for accomplishing amazing feats such as completing tasks forces fast? I mean, it takes some skill, knowledge, and thought to do speed runs. Meanwhile players who decide to clear the map are putting in much more work and time to complete. At some point how many reward merits a task gives becomes arbitrary. In the game Red Dead Redemption Online rewards are in large part tied to how much time a player spends completing the task. The more time spent, the more rewards. This builds in an exploit and players are happy to take advantage of it. They do everything required for the task, and then right before they’re about to complete the task they sit on it. Go take a shower, get a coffee, eat lunch, go to the grocery store, pick up their kids from school, etc. After 30 minutes or so of being AFK they come back and finally end the task and reap the bigger rewards. It actually takes a lot of fun out of the game. I think the live devs realized all of this and is why the amount of reward merits earned is not consistent. This begs the question, then how should reward merits be allocated? it seems to me that the best way to determine reward merits would be to create a formula that considers the completion of the task, the type of task, the difficulty of the task, the size of the team/league, and the amount of teamwork and coordination required for the task. Time should not be considered (except possibly as part of determining difficulty). What would this prompt players to do? Team instead of solo, have bigger teams, do the important or signature tasks of the game, tackle the most difficult tasks in the game, become skilled in leadership and cooperation. At some point how many reward merits a task rewards becomes a judgement call, even if it does factor in some objective items.

Those are all good things the player needs to consider when estimating the time to complete a task force or trial. However, those things will not be visible in the data… which is why you don’t want to use them when anayzling the data. For example, if the data shows that 90% of all task forces are completed between 30-40 minutes, then the estimate I would go with is that range… 30-40 min. I might even state the percentage… 90% completed within 30-40 min. The data might show that 50% are completed in 20 minutes, while 40% are completed in 45 minutes. And then 10% scattered all over the place. This might indicate the times for speed runs (20 min) and kill all runs (45 min). Not conclusive unless additional testing was done to confirm the times, but it definitely shows a pattern. The best way to communicate the patterns in the data is through a graph. i’d probably get completion times for 1 year’s time. That should probably be good enough.

If you’re playing in fullscreen try borderless or windowed. If you’re playing in borderless or windowed try fullscreen. Might work. Maybe.

You can do all sorts of things with numbers and statistics, and actual data can tell you all kinds of things. A range from the fastest to the longest is useful, knowing how long the vast majority of trials and task forces take to complete is very useful, and knowing an average is also very useful. The idea is to get an ESTIMATE or an idea of how long it might take, not to nail down an exact time. You are right that there are too many variables to settle on an exact time that is true for everyone. That's not the goal. The goal is to get an idea of about how long it might take, a starting point, that's all. Then it's up to you to factor in the other variables, team size, player skill, speed run or kill all, etc. Patterns in data have the possibility to tell you almost exactly how long a trial or task force might take to complete, or potentially tell you nothing worthwhile. It all depends on the data. And without seeing the data, it's impossible to draw any conclusions about it.

Hello my favorite devs, How easy would it be to data mine the completion times for each of the game's trials and task forces? The best format would be in a spreadsheet form (but any format would be fine). I could do the data analysis and plotting with the data to see any important patterns and to get the average, mode, and range. This information would be HIGHLY useful for players when trying to decide on whether or not to take on a task force or trial. Anyway, I'm only asking if something like this would be easy and fast. I don't want to take up much of your valuable time. If it would take a lot of effort, just disregard and file it under pie in the sky. 🙂 Thanks a bunch!

https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Paragon_Dance_Party

GREAT suggestion, @Greycat! In my SG we've made an actual Paragon Savings and Loan bank with tellers and everything. We have 8 storage racks for COMMON (white) salvage, 4 for UNCOMMON (yellow) salvage, and 1 for RARE (dark orange) salvage. Each rarity of salvage has its own safe deposit box room. Proportionally it works out almost exactly, but for it to work well we need 1 more storage rack for Rare salvage. We have 5 enhancement storage bins, and there's really no way to get rid of one of those. Total = 18. You're right. When we first got to Homecoming we needed to Common salvage storage, but now we don't really need the Common storage anymore. It's easy enough to buy. My problem is that it would require an entire re-design of the bank inside my SG base if we were to get rid of the common salvage racks. It would be a lot easier just to add one more storage rack. However... You're giving me some ideas. I might be able to get rid of only one wall of Common salvage storage racks... and that might look OK. Maybe. I'll ponder it a bit. That might be a solution, @Greycat! Thanks for the suggestion, and thank you to everyone else who chimed in! You guys are great! Here's what one of the safe deposit rooms looks like in my base, just so you can see what I mean about re-designning...

Great minds think alike... Yep, I've done this exactly as you describe with mule and everything, but it's a pain. Having all my salvage in one SG is so much easier. Totally a quality of life problem. Exactly. Same. Once in a while, I or my SG mates need to craft an IO. I just want to make sure I have everything needed in the base for easy use, and right now I don't have enough storage for all the different types of Rare salvage.

Well, I've done it... I've run out of storage space in my SG base. Would it be possible to raise the storage item limit from 18 to 20? Just 2 more salvage storage racks would make a world of difference in my base! If that's not possible, how about doubling the amount of salvage a storage rack can contain, from 100 to 200? This would solve my problem too, and free up 6 more storage racks if I ever needed them as an added bonus.

I haven't checked the other Incarnate trials, but I'd wager their active participation requirements are very similar to BAF. I've done some more testing, and have figured out a few more things. I think I'll edit my first post above and add the things I've learned. There are still a few questions left unanswered, but for the most part I'm satisfied that I've answered what "active participation" means in BAF. 🙂

I do it all the time! But then I realize I'm looking down at people... 😉 I think it's a matter of personal preference/experience, whether you like trees going up or down, or sideways. I don't think any way is particularly "dumb" though.

Well, after giving it a lot of thought, I've settled on some names. Unless anyone objects, from now on I'll be calling them: Invention Origin Set Individual Enhancement Bonus (Individual Enhancement Bonus) and Invention Origin Set Enhancement Set Bonus (Set Bonus)