Blackfeather
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Posts posted by Blackfeather
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That's an interesting question, and it's only one that I just started to think about recently. If I get any of my arithmetic wrong, please point it out!
On a team of, let's say, 8 Controllers, all using their Hold power, they'd have an 8% chance of triggering a Mag 50 hold. In the current system, a single Controller on average does about a 3.2 Magnitude Hold (factoring in the 20% chance of Overpower). Multiplying that by 8, we get a cumulative 25.6 Magnitude Hold - another application of which would be sufficient to Hold an AV.
With Overwhelming Overpower,
there'd only be a 16% chance of actually triggering an AV level Hold, (bad math! Props to @HelenCarnate for catching it.) there would be 16 separate instances of a 1% chance of actually triggering an AV level Hold - a 14.85% chance of it going off at least once, given two applications by all 8 Controllers, before they'd overwhelm the AV by sheer numbers in the first place, no Overpower!! Hold required.Essentially, I figure that the amount of lockdown brought by multiple Controllers already provides enough power to hold down AVs/GMs without too much of an issue - but one or two Controllers alone can't do the same, and due to the binary nature of how status effects work, it leaves their primary somewhat shafted. So adding in that potential chance of breaking through those protections helps in that regard.
Conversely, additional magnitude past those protection limits is in effect 'wasted' - as such, I'm not sure if adding restrictions to this mechanic on teams with multiple Controllers is necessary...but I could be overlooking some potential scenarios!
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The Current Situation
Controllers are one of my favourite archetypes - capable of changing the course of a battle with a single well aimed power, and aiding their allies while debilitating their foes, it makes for a character that prefers to facilitate victory, rather than getting their hands dirty in the middle of a fight.
However, while they can easily disable weaker enemies with their numerous abilities, much of their arsenal is rendered ineffective against stronger foes, which have inherent levels of protection against status effects. That is to say: the raison d'être of a Controller's entire Primary power set (i.e. disabling or otherwise hindering the enemy) becomes an accessory to their other abilities while facing Archvillains and Giant Monsters.
No other category of powers invalidates themselves against stronger enemies to this wide of a margin - buffs and debuffs work, as do powers that deal damage. While they function at a diminished rate, they still do something. In comparison, status effects are binary: they either affect the enemy or they don't, and in the case of Archvillains and Giant Monsters...they usually don't.
While it is true that it is possible to stack enough status effects to overcome this inherent protection that these stronger foes have, one Controller alone is very unlikely to be able to do this - why else would Archvillains have a cycling period of higher/lower status effect immunity?
As it stands, Dominators are the better choice for actually locking down stronger enemies due to their inherent: the doubled strength of their control powers mean that they're much more capable of exceeding the status effect protections that such enemies possess.
The Proposed Change
Controllers actually have an inherent ability that lets them bypass the protections of some enemies to a degree. This comes in the form of 20% chance of increasing the magnitude of a status effect inflicting power by 1 (denoted by the word Overpower on use). Since most status effects have a magnitude of 3, this lets them occasionally affect Boss ranked enemies in a single hit. However, this does little to nothing for higher ranking enemies, which have much higher levels of protection.
This proposal (which I'm calling Overwhelming Overpower) attempts to change this, giving the Overpower mechanic the chance to grant higher levels of magnitude than just 1. As a result, Controllers now have the chance to affect higher ranking enemies with just a single use of a status effect inducing ability. While this makes them less reliable than a Dominator, they can potentially reach far greater heights. As the table below shows, Overpower can now actually, well, overpower enemies, regardless of their rank.
Additional Magnitude
Chance per Overpower Chance per Power Usage Floating Text +1 = affect a Boss 50% 10% = 10 in 100 uses Overpower +4 = affect an Elite Boss 25% 5% = 5 in 100 uses Overpower! +54 = affect an Archvillain 20% 4% = 4 in 100 uses Overpower!! +100 = affect a Giant Monster 5% 1% = 1 in 100 uses Overpower!!! This was partially inspired by the idea of saving throws in D&D. Naturally, higher level enemies tend to be more resistant to effects, but there was still the chance that a bad roll of the die could leave them affected. As seen in the table above, Archvillains now have a 25% chance of being overwhelmed by a status effect inducing ability, if it is Overpowered. In other words, rolling a natural 1 on a d20 (20% chance of Overpower, then 25% chance of a +54 or higher Magnitude boost).
I also added in a section that allowed Elite Bosses to be instantly affected as well, since they have somewhat higher protection levels than Bosses do - it also serves as a way of giving Controllers some additional magnitude to play with against Archvillains/Giant Monsters to some degree, making it a little bit easier to overwhelm them.
I figure that these numbers strike a fair balance between making control powers completely godlike and essentially useless - with enough attempts, a Controller can now lock down powerful enemies, even if they can't build enough stacks to brute force their way through an enemy's protection. However, people more versed in numbers than I am, please feel free to correct me, or suggest changes to these chances.
Potential Further Ideas
Smoother Overpower Magnitude Curve
One idea I've been toying with is the idea of having Overpower's magnitude be more variable. Instead of a flat chance for specific magnitudes, perhaps using a logarithmic scale with higher/lower magnitudes might be more potent. My main concern here is that this might be a bit too powerful, depending on exactly how this scale might look.
Extremely high values would occur at approximately the same rate as before, but it'd also provide the opportunity for status effect magnitudes to stack a little better (e.g. a chance of having a Mag 40 Hold, followed by a few regular Mag 3 ones, just enough to Hold an AV).
This could further boost the Controller's ability to lock down Archvillains and Giant Monsters, even if they don't exactly hit the right threshold the first time around, by stacking additional status effect points to just reach the limit. Were I more versed in maths, I'd draw up a graph of the likelihood of a specific magnitude on an Overpower under this model...but sadly I am not.
+Chance to Overpower
Another idea that's come to mind is letting the actual chance for the Overpower effect occur more frequently depending on a stacking bonus, similar to how Stalkers can build higher chances for critical hits. Potential ideas for 'stacks' (of let's say 5%) could be:
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Stacking percentage based on how many status effects on an enemy are applied (even if they aren't affecting them)
- E.g. Controller attempts to Hold + Sleep + Confuse an AV, chance to Overpower is now 20% + (5% + 5% + 5%) = 35% chance
- Stacking percentage based on how many recent control powers have been used (time pending)
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Stacking percentage based on previous controls that weren't an Overpower (increase chance if it hasn't happened lately)
- E.g. Controller's previous two controls were regular ones, chance to Overpower is now 20% + (5% + 5%) = 30% chance
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Increased chance based on amount of magnitude left until it exceeds protection
- (Current Magnitude Inflicted / Enemy Magnitude Protection) * 100 = additional chance to Overpower
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E.g. Controller Holds AV for Mag 3, resulting in a 26% chance to Overpower
- (3 / 50) * 100 = 6% additional chance
Overpowering Overkill
Two points that have been brought up a few times in this thread:
- Controllers are a little bit slow at actually clearing out enemies in regular play
- Overwhelming Overpower does little against weaker enemies (Lieutenants and below)
As such, this additional proposal aims to address these two points in the following manner:
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An Overpower or above will instantly defeat Underling ranked enemies and below
- 20% chance for instant defeat on power use
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An Overpower! or above will instantly defeat Minion ranked enemies and below
- 10% chance for instant defeat on power use
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An Overpower!! or above will instantly defeat Lieutenant/Sniper ranked enemies and below
- 5% chance for instant defeat on power use
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An Overpower!!! will instantly defeat Boss ranked enemies and below
- 1% chance for instant defeat on power use
This is flavoured as the Controller's higher magnitude powers fully overwhelming weaker enemies, and thus leading to their subsequent defeat. As such, the proposal might work well together with the previous suggestion of dynamically increasing the chance of an Overpower occurring.
Conclusion
With this proposal, Controllers should now be able to better lock down higher ranking enemies, rather than rely on their secondary abilities to help a team when facing them. Rather than building stacks of status effect points that will likely do little, or needing other team members to help them, a Controller can now know that their attempts in locking down that AV all have the chance to become something greater: an Overwhelming Overpower!
Feedback as always is welcome - is this something that you might like to see? Any changes that you'd like to this proposal? Looking forward to any responses that come my way!
History
Initially, here was what the likelihood of Overwhelming Overpower looked like - after some discussion, I figured that it was a bit too low:
SpoilerAdditional Magnitude Chance per Overpower Chance per Power Usage Floating Text +1 = affect a Boss 50% 10% = 1 in 100 uses Overpower +4 = affect an Elite Boss 45% 9% = 9 in 100 uses Overpower! +54 = affect an Archvillain 4% 0.8% = 1 in 125 uses Overpower!! +100 = affect a Giant Monster 1% 0.2% = 1 in 500 uses Overpower!!! A 1 in 100 chance of affecting an AV with a single Hold is a bit too little to be noticed, most likely.
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Stacking percentage based on how many status effects on an enemy are applied (even if they aren't affecting them)
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I mean, technically, the XP Boosters are letting you breeze through levels by 'paying' in influence/infamy that you'd have earned, that you're instead putting to experience points. 😉
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Currently, the power Fissure (both in Controller and Dominator flavour) requires you to be on the ground to activate it.
The old i25 patch notes changed the way a number of powers worked (Foot Stomp, Atom Smasher, Burn, Tremor, Ice Patch). Before these changes, they needed to be activated while you were on the ground. Now, they can also be used while flying, so long as you're close to the ground - a nice quality of life adjustment.
Given that there is precedence for similar powers being adjusted in this way, it would be nice if Fissure could also be used while flying, instead of requiring you to be on the ground.
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Just going to leave this creation of mine here.
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13 hours ago, Lines said:
The planned Utility Belt power pool is supposed to come with a Freerunning power. My hope that it's in the region of Ninja Run/Beast Run but without the animation. I have a bunch of heroes who cannot wait for a 'normal human' travel power.
A natural control powerset of some sort has been on my wishlist since forever.
My biggest qualm is with the Well of Furies storytelling pulling the rug out from underneath whatever we have in mind for our characters, but maybe that's another discussion.
I do like these quotes from @Sakura Tenshi about the Incarnate system.
On 2/5/2020 at 6:22 AM, Sakura Tenshi said:The only mistakes with the incarnate system were:
1. The devs poorly worded the lore behind it to make it sound like we were all being shoe-horned into a mystical origin instead of origins picked at character creation and imagined our characters' story around
2. Interface should have been broken into two slots: the damage proc and the effect so we can actually get the appropriate effects we want like energy damage and end-drain to make a psudo lightning sword
3. Relatedly: interface feels like something that would have been cooler as part of base gameplay
4. No lore pets based on Mastermind pets so masterminds can feel like they've summoned even more Robots, Mercs, Thugs, Zombies, Ninja, etc.
5. NO WEAPON JUDGEMENT ANIMATIONS (I just want my katana tocatch the lightning then shoot it out in a swing!)
On 2/5/2020 at 12:51 PM, Sakura Tenshi said:The funniest part is that the devs have later clarified that they basically never intended to overwrite the player characters' origin and stories we had imagined, rather it was just a (sort of badly written) attempt to give some thematic naming and concept behind the incarnate system. I think the genuine worst offender though wasn't even incarnate content itself, but in the origin of powers arcs.
All they had to say was "incarnate level science is NOT your character applying a universal mystical force, but your scientist having that breakthrough moment of realizing 'reversing the polarities' CAN work."
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7 hours ago, MTeague said:
See, I never understood why the crash was removed from Blast T9's in the first place.
Money or no money. I didn't consider the crash a bad thing.
** is dragged kicking and screaming off to the side by swarms of angry Blasters, Defenders, and Corruptors and clubbed like a baby seal **
No, really,
** is clubbed some more **
I kinda liked Full Auto being weaker-but-crashless as a tradeoff, and I remember the game being a lot more tactical when you couldn't melt everything in one button every other spawn. Now, I have ZERO expectations that that will EVER be reverted. But regardless of whether that happened on HC or in the last year or so of LIVE when I was off playing other games, I just feel like it should be pointed out that "If blasters have crashless T9's, than so should everyone else" can be balanced out in more than one direction.
How bad was the crash like on ranged T9 powers anyhow, out of curiosity? I wouldn't mind it being a thing myself, especially with the sustains that Blasters get, say.
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9 hours ago, FoulVileTerror said:
*shrugs*
Freaklympics?
QuoteFinally, find Freedom at the annual game,
And claim the honor of gold medal fame.https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Freaklympics_gold_medal
That makes sense to me.
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Hmm...I think I'll try summoning @The Philotic Knight to weigh in on this. 🙂
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9 hours ago, FoulVileTerror said:
But, alas @Blackfeather, there is a minimum level gate on that, as it counts as a Task Force.
Certainly that's true, but Peregrine Island is a level 41-50 zone anyhow (compared to the 40-50 level gate of the TF), so the only scenario where hunting Fake Nemesis in PI is more efficient than the task force is if you're on a Freedom Phalanx Reserve badge hunting team sidekicked up with a higher level character leading.
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5 minutes ago, Twisted Toon said:
Lately, I've been grinding Fake Nemesis in PI for that stupid Unveiler badge.
Just so I can get one of the Stat altering Accolades.
That is a frustrating grind.
Episode 5 of Pandora's Box has a lot of Fake Nemesis in them - much more efficient than hunting them down in Peregrine Island. Just go x8/-1 and you're golden, especially on a team.
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On 4/16/2020 at 4:08 AM, ZekeStenzland said:
A simpler, no new tech implementation of Dizzied might be just to add an unenhanceable 15sec mag 3 disorient to mesmerize and mass hypnosis. That way, if mobs get woken up immediately, there’s still some benefit, but if they’ve been asleep for a bit, you’ve probably gotten most of the value out of the sleep anyway.
Doesnt address the other issues of Mind a Control, but does make the sleeps more relevant on teams.
...whoops, I might have missed this, let me address this real quick.
It's a potent idea that definitely helps the fragility of sleeps on teams/AoE heavy builds - I could see this working nicely for Plant Control's Spore Burst for example, it'd be quite thematic. That being said, I do prefer the idea of the Dizzied! mechanic when it comes to Mind Control. I've a few reasons for that:
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I was heavily inspired by Gravity Control's changes, using it as an example of the extent to which changes to a powerset might be made
- The Dizzied! mechanic is basically an analogue to Gravity's Impact! mechanic that instead grants additional control instead of damage under some circumstances
- I wanted a mechanic that worked similarly to Impact! - encouraging the use of powers in a certain combination to trigger an additional effect
- I didn't want to make Mass Hypnosis and Mesmerize always act as a means of stunning an opponent - only under specific circumstances (that is, when followed up with Levitate or Terrify)
- A lot of the changes I made were designed around maintaining the each power's "intention", with any improvements made stopping short of changing their main use case - when possible, use Mass Hypnosis and Mesmerize to sleep enemies, but if that's not possible, another avenue opens up
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As a kind of trade off for this, I made the disorient from this mechanic extendable; enhance the sleep duration, enhance the Dizzied! mechanic
- This also provides Mind Control with a more persistent way to keep up Containment (outside of adding an Immobilise to Telekinesis) than if it could not be extended
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I was heavily inspired by Gravity Control's changes, using it as an example of the extent to which changes to a powerset might be made
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14 hours ago, Redlynne said:
So basically make the "neutralizer" factor last for the first 0.3s and have the Sleep/Fear start at 0.2s after the damage (instead of 0.25s) ... which is a difference that I honestly don't think anyone will notice the shift aside from the lack of retribution to the Mind Controller.
Mmhm - preventing additional aggro sounds like a good place to start. Sounds like a change that ought to be done for any other damaging Sleep/Fear effects. Along with @Zeraphia's suggestion post of making such effects less prone to breaking due to Interface DoT procs and so on...though again, less of a Mind Control thing, and more of a general thing of course.
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4 hours ago, Redlynne said:
Think I've got a solution.
0.00 to 0.25s: Damage ... and Hold (unresistable! unenhanceable!) ... for 0.25s
0.25s onwards: Sleep duration
Basically do a 1/4 second Hold effect to prevent the retaliation shot and then end the Hold so as to let the Sleep take over.
Could do the same thing for Terrify, because it has the same timing issue, as Mesmerize.
Would be a relatively simple tweak to implement.
That sounds pretty good! Though I think you mentioned somewhere that Hold/Stuns detoggle things on enemies, which Fear doesn't currently do, I believe? Maybe a Confuse like you mentioned before could work for that instead.
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Though...it does make me wonder if Sleeps/Fears ought to be changed in some way in general then to be a bit more durable: maybe small amounts of damage such as Interface's DoT wouldn't be enough to set them off? It'd make the status effect play a little nicer with rain powers as well.
Of course, that doesn't help this whole situation of damaging Sleep/Fear powers causing aggro due to how they're made behind the scenes, at least not directly...
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49 minutes ago, Redlynne said:
Depends on if it's a DoT or not. If it's a DoT, say goodbye to your Sleep powers working for Mind Control.
That's a shame...I imagine the same probably applies for Terrorize as well, in that the extra damage might end up causing additional enemy aggro. Outside of what's currently happening of course.
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2 minutes ago, Redlynne said:
Procs do "instant" damage along with the rest of the damage output (unless the damage is delayed within the power's parameters, like is done with Lift).
I have the Will of the Controller ATO proc for damage slotted into my Mesmerize (where it procs a pretty good deal) and it does damage up front before the Sleep effect 0.25s after the damage is done. This means that a damage proc on Mesmerize will break a Sleep that was already applied, but will not break a Sleep that happens after the damage is applied (which the power does natively).
That's some relief at least! Though I've heard some of the Incarnate DoT interface powers interact badly with these powers as well, which is a bit of a shame. And come to think of it, when do these procs occur on, say, non-damaging Fear powers such as Fearsome Stare?
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1 hour ago, MTeague said:
Now if they could make Mezmerize (and like powers) do a special type of damage that DOESN'T break sleep, that would be game-changing.
Possibly overpowered, but probably not. Teams still won't wait, they'll attack anything on sight. So it would only really help a soloing controller.
That'd definitely be quite nice - it sounds like damaging Sleeps/Fears are at a bit of a disadvantage to Holds in comparison due to their more fragile nature. I'm guessing that when damage is applied simultaneously on such powers, it'd break the Sleep, and cause enemies to retaliate when Feared anyway.
Come to think of it, I wonder how these powers currently interact with procs - along with non-damaging Fear powers with Glimpse of the Abyss' damage proc...
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4 hours ago, Redlynne said:
Because damage happens first, enemies are NOTIFIED ... and they reply/respond to being attacked ... just like with any other damaging attack.
They get to queue up their attack choice before the 0.25s delay until the Sleep/Fear takes effect ... and because City of Heroes works on a Resolve First/Animate After basis, everything about their reply attack gets computed and "laid in" to happen before the 0.25s later Sleep/Fear effect comes into force. It's just a consequence of the order of operations and how the game "works" under the hood.
I just checked Flash Freeze and it works the same way as Mesmerize. Instant damage with notify mobs ... then 0.25s later apply Sleep.
Note that this formulation means that Flash Freeze CANNOT STACK WITH ITSELF since the power does damage (breaking Sleep) before reapplying Sleep ... unlike Mass Hypnosis, which can be stacked with itself if you put enough sleep duration and recharge enhancement into the power.
I see! Out of curiosity, how do the regular Hold powers such as Dominate work in comparison - are they queued differently?
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10 minutes ago, Redlynne said:
Mesmerize has a very GOOD reason for why it does damage first and then sleep 0.25s later.
Because if you reverse that order of operations, Mesmerize breaks its own sleep effect ... because damage will break sleep.
So you can't sleep first and then damage 0.25s later. That just means you get a 0.25s sleep duration (regardless of the power description), which will satisfy NO ONE.
Fear ... on the other hand ... I'm not sure if the order of operations (damage then fear versus fear then damage) will affect the behavior of $Targets at all who are hit by Terrify.
What I'm saying is that I don't understand why Sleep/Fear powers that deal damage should trigger enemies to attack in the first place when other powers of a similar nature don't - it sounds kind of unfair, you know? I'm not sure whether or not Ice Control's Flash Freeze is similar in nature to Mesmerize in that way, but if it is, it definitely should be looked at similarly.
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37 minutes ago, Redlynne said:
It means, that Terrify works like Mesmerize ... damage first/instantly and mez effect 0.25s later (lazy game design FTW!).
This is why you can use Mesmerize on a $Target and they will get an attack off before falling asleep on you. I see this happen all the time when I have only a Sleep effect but no Hold on a $Target I hit with Mesmerize. Without something to PREVENT actions against my Controller, when damaged (which breaks Sleep) a $Target will attack ... and so long as they initiate that attack before the Sleep (or in this case, Fear) effect is in effect, they're going to alpha strike counter-attack you for using Terrify on them if you don't have something "stronger" like a Hold (or Lift) preventing them from taking any actions.
Interesting! That does sound very odd for sure - after all, a lot of Hold powers deal damage as well, but don't result in enemies retaliating. Why would powers causing Sleeps or Fears be any different in this case? After all, so long as the enemy isn't damaged after the effect is applied, they shouldn't be able to respond.
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26 minutes ago, Redlynne said:
I posted my solution to fixing the Terrify drawing alpha strike over on my thread and I will spare everyone the repost and just provide a link.
It sounds quite interesting! Adding a short-lived Confuse effect to Terrify is definitely one way of preventing alphas if they do indeed occur. I definitely need to test this out for myself just in case - I believe @MTeague mentioned that it wasn't an issue for them, so there might be some other factor at play that's causing it.
Still, if it is happening, you have to wonder why that's the case, and if so, whether it's a bug or not, or if it's intentional. I'll hopefully be back with some results from testing soon enough!
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8 hours ago, SwitchFade said:
Unfortunately, even unperceived, when a Dominator applies terrify, the MOBs get off their Alpha. Perhaps it's due to the damage, or the order of application, but openeing with terrify on high level teams can and does get one defeated.
Basically, hit terrify, MOBs take a shot then go into fear. If it's a group of 15 MOBs at +2-4, imagine soaking that alpha, every time.
Interesting...well if that's the case, then that definitely ought to be resolved! I'll need to note that down as something that needs changing if it's indeed a problem for others.
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1 hour ago, FrauleinMental said:
It could be, since it appears both powers have ranges slightly beyond minion perception range. Maybe Terrify is applying Fear and damage in separate ticks, which would allow enemy alpha. If that's the case, it's been the case since Live. In any case, I generally try to use Terrify only on stuff I already have locked down, just for the Containment damage, and that's probably not cool.
Perhaps - but if Terrify does indeed cause enemy attacks, then I think it ought to be changed. The only difference between Terrify and other Fear-inflicting powers such as Fearsome Stare and Spectral Terror is that damage component (along with the lack of -ToHit). Both of these example powers can easily bar groups of enemies from attacking from the start; I don't think it'd be a stretch to call them strictly better than Terrify if that's the case, especially when they also have the option to deal damage via enhancement procs.
Overwhelming Overpower: A Controller Inherent Buff - Control AVs and GMs!
in Suggestions & Feedback
Posted
1 in 100 actually, including the chance for a Mag 100 effect. The idea behind Overwhelming Overpower is to provide a slim chance for a Controller to be able to affect higher ranking enemies, even if they don't have enough powers to stack to the required threshold.
Per my post, I wanted to strike the balance between "actually able to affect stronger enemies" and "up 100% of the time for every fight". Given the fact that the Controller already has a chance based mechanism built right into it, it made sense to build on top of that.
However, if you do think the numbers as they are a little slim, what do you think might be better odds, without them being...overly overwhelming? 🤣
Alternately, perhaps the logarithmic Overwhelming Overpower idea I put forth might be of interest to you? So there could be a variable sliding scale of Overpower magnitudes, from an additional 1 all the way to 100, the lower magnitudes being more likely than the higher ones, but providing an overall increase in a Controller's ability to lock down beefier targets.