Naraka

From my personal viewpoint with regards to procs, I have no qualms with proc builds and proc bombs. That, in and of itself, isn't the problem but rather the culminating stacking nature...and that can go for a lot of things in the game, from defense to stacking buffs, etc. You stack enough defenders on something and you break the game. You stack enough defense and you can wade through a lot more than if you stack resistance. I'm merely pointing out the observation that, stacking is the issue and to help alleviate that *without* straight up nerfing every proc, you merely strike at the stackable nature...which is why I proposed changing some procs into flat % based instead of all being PPM. At least then, you could have a decent lot putting that flat % proc in a damage/debuff/control aura, for example, and having it have a decent chance of proc'ing with the caveat being you're also not going to have 4+ choices of % procs to stack in said powers and you're not always going to have 5+ procs to slot in your PPM based powers. As for the Tanker part of it, without bringing into the point of difficulty settings, it's hard to judge. If your Tanker is less durable with a proc build than with an IO bonus build, that means you've chosen offense over defense so you should lower your difficulty down a notch. If you can survive just as well at +3 as the IO bonus build at +4 but defeat things very noticeably faster, how much worse are you really? Why not give defense sets decreased resistances to debuffs then, outside of defense debuffs of course?

So can a misused AoE (that doesn't have KB).

That's me trying to compromise a point. Saying KB gets you killed is just dumb, tho.

Did you say you weren't replying to me anymore. I'll correct myself: you can thank Super Atom for directing the discussion to that tangent. Me mentioning that mitigation in the low levels may have sparked you to create the narrative that KB in the low levels gets you killed (I disagree...a lot of things can get you killed, not just KB but we're not going to remove those things). I only mentioned it because it's true, mitigation in the low levels can be on a premium and KB is mitigation. It's interesting you decided to do what you accuse me of though. Very not-hypocritical of you lol Firstly, I'm not even being that rude. The only reason 2 people here are snapping is because they seemingly have no tolerance for snark. Believe me, if I were being rude, I'd be moderated into oblivion like always. Even still it wouldn't warrant some of the replies I've received. At most, I have no issues with a heated discussion. And the only real dismissive points come from lack of acknowledgement of how the game's balance has been kept thus far. The second and third part really do fall in line with what I'm talking about in the first in that, you say this isn't about power creep or asking for more damage...but you are. I know I've heard people put up that suggestion here too (just give Energy Blast a bump in damage) which is at least honest. Saying Energy Blast falls behind other sets I just do not agree with. Saying that the IO is a tax to catch up to other sets, I disagree with because if you value mitigating scatter for DPS, you are getting your value's worth and I do not feel you deserve more than maybe whatever the slot could get you in enhancements ontop of that. No more, no less. Outside of that, rebalancing the set (and likely other sets), I'm mainly silent on because that is just an issue for another thread but I'd likely lean on wanting to keep damage buffs to a minimum, not dish them out because some people feel their favorite powerset is unfairly hindered.

I guess I'll reiterate my first point: Add enhancement values to the KB>KD IO (specifically Sudden Acceleration) and you solve that issue. Then, at worse, you don't get all the set bonuses if you decide to put in other sets but that is a choice. [EDIT]The funny thing is, I didn't know Overwhelming Force was a unique until corrected on it....because I've never bothered using it. I still have a Peacebringer, FF/Energy, Energy/Plant and Grav/Energy but some would have you believe they cannot function without those IOs. So take that context into account as well. As for low level content, I was not the one to bring up low level content. You can thank Super Atom for that tangent.

Did I say someone is close-minded? As far as Power Push....I guess I could rehash them: you got hover, you got wall, you got juggle, you got immobilize, you got tp, you got pull, you got IOs, you got other powersets, etc. And the reason I said you were going to disregard various mitigation points is because you used the word "repeatedly". Maybe you just meant "at a higher frequency" but the way I read it, it was wait 2 seconds after every blast, which I feel is an exaggeration. But I see a lot of exaggerating here primarily because, having played this game for so long, it's only gotten easier and I don't mean with just experience...I'm talking about everything. It basically gets to the point people are seemingly framing KB as the killer of noobs and DPS when, in reality, there are no DPS checks in this game and half the time, you can't die regardless of how many mistakes you make and even if you do, you can get right back up yourself...but somehow I'm to assume KB is so detrimental, we need to sacrifice what semblance of the early-to-mid game is left to appease the insatiable thirst for more DPS? *MAYBE* add a 40+ Alpha slot that enhances damage and morphs all KB to KD but leave the early game alone.

I guess I'm supposed to take the "plays on +0-1" as an insult? I play plenty of low level TFs and, like I said, what you're describing is *actual* fodder/standard fare and *at worst* it might cause slower kill speeds. People can and do die even without KB present so attributing these aspects to KB is just more fabrication of scenarios to highlight your narrative. Please, don't reply back to me. The wicked talons of the meta have dug so deep into you, you'd only end up hurting yourself trying. Well it wouldn't be wasting 2 seconds repeatedly, only occasionally unless you intentionally were trying to test how KB can absolutely extend a fight. Outside of the many (*beat the dead horse*) means of controlling KB for gain, you also have other team-oriented solutions that you're not going to acknowledge purely to assert your point. At the end of the day, you're the one trying to convince players like me of your position. If you can't even convince someone who's trying to actually compromise with you and understand your arguments, I don't feel you'll get far with others. From the beginning, I would agree to mitigating as much of the drawback of the IOs but beyond that, you'd be asking for even more freebies just to bust the rest of the game....the part that actually is still decent.

And you have it! Good lordy, you wasted 2.2 seconds!? The end is near! I could have somewhat been in agreement here as that could be somewhat inconvenient even if you controlled it....but we have the KB>KD IOs and a wide range Wormhole-like power available in pools for anyone to use so... I'm not being rude, I'm being pedantic because you're mostly just presenting exaggerated scenarios and playing off as if the game is so tight and structured that anything outside of your scope of performance is an actual detriment. No one called you a liar, I said your scenario is fabricated. It's not like you named names or outlined a specific scenario. You just said x person could do y and z can happen. And I disagree with people for a living. Persuading someone to even listen to you in the first place requires you to understand them and get them to express their views frankly after which exposing their weak arguments is easier. AoE is king is exactly why a KB>KD toggle shouldn't exist and why the IO itself was a mistake. Not having meta-level ST DPS in the early game does not support your narrative that KB is harmful as mitigation in the early game, wherever you can get it, is helpful and in cases where it's not needed, the likelyhood it will do the opposite and become harmful requires making up a scenario.

You're not really making your point though. What is "great ST"? What metric is used to decide if you reach that benchmark? Because, AFAIK, focus firing on a hard target is the easiest way to take down STs and if you have a team, everyone will have a ST attack to use. And ST is not great...that's just false. Otherwise, I'd be seeing people making DPS rotations using AoEs. By the teens, you're looking at having *at least* ONE staple ST attacks whether that's Blazing Arrow, Gambler's Cut, Smite, Suppressive Fire, etc. Having 2 or 3 team members with similarly decent ST attacks will get you through a lot. And slotting? Boy, do you even remember where you came from!? We have SOs at level 1. If we could survive on DOs up until the early 20s, how on Earth could what you say have been true for over 10 years?! And your fabricated scenario merely sounds like standard fodder, not life or death. Half the time the exemplared folk have high-end IO bonuses to get them through anyway. Outside of the whole ST vs AoE argument, I'm not sure I can take you seriously...

@Ghost, you need to be careful with targeted insults. You're gonna get your post deleted that way.

What team doesn't have good ST? I play almost exclusively early game and not having good ST has never been an issue. Not on MM, not on Blaster, not on even Defender and if you're a controller, you can proc a hold if you'd like. In fact, I'd argue the complete opposite: KB early game is a saving grace since you likely suffer from weaker slotting and fewer people have massive high-powered AoEs except perhaps Blasters in the late 20s, early 30s. It's also a lot more likely control will actually do something, from stopping foes from killing you to...stopping your KB from scattering. I think you're also committing some exaggeration. At best, it might be an inconvenience if groups of enemies are very close together AND you somehow aggro them by specifically knocking a toggle anchor into the other group.

I'd say, there are other powersets to choose from then. As for the last statement, that sounds like you've found your personal solution right there. Only if you do not value mitigation or the ability to spam abilities wantonly. So it's basically gotten to, if it doesn't do more damage, it's not an advantage and that mentality seems more prevalent the higher level you go. It's one reason I don't play in those ranges because of how out of whack it is...but people seem to keep wanting to push the *entire game* into the same loop.

GOOD NEWS! It doesn't.

I hate public polls. Your data is skewed from the beginning because people can see the results of the poll in real time...that's a no no.

They don't have a choice to what? What do they not have a choice in? You're exaggerating to try and build a foundation for your argument. Most people don't kick in this game because most would rather just skim through the content for the reward rather than throw hissy fits. Even with completely horrendous KB use, you're looking at extending a TF/SF by maybe 5 min if they don't just outright skip as much of the content as possible to get the whole thing over with. Even if you get kicked, teams are a dime-a-dozen on blue. I think the solution that is currently available is fine and I don't even ever use the KB/KD crutch. The the solution looks like it's putting an enhancement value into Sudden Acceleration...like I said in the beginning. As for the point about procs and IO bonuses: moot. You are getting an advantage you're sacrificing a slot for just the same as if I take my Peace Bringer and put procs instead of KB>KD. You are not getting nothing for the slot and you'd be getting a bit more if, for example, Sudden Acceleration had some kind of enhancement added to it which is the easiest solution.

Overwhelming Force's KB>KD already enhances damage. So what is the problem?

Well of course we're going to leave things as is, not because your suggestion is bad or divisive but rather it's not a priority issue thus if any change ever occurs, it will likely be further in the future. That being said, I don't think your suggestion solves anything you're saying. Players will still be harassed (if they indeed are being *actually* harassed and not just mildly inconvenienced or kicked from a team...newsflash, the kick feature exists in MMOs to be used, not to write treaties of everlasting peace among every individual) and powersets will still be stagnant (whatever that's supposed to mean). Beyond all that, as a person who likes to see things from the perspectives of others to better argue a point, I'd like you to at least be up front and explain why you specifically want the suggesting you're suggesting. Because, to me, you already have your solution...it was a solution that was fought for and eventually implemented. It was a solution that gives agency and choice in how your powers function and that comes with consequences for a clear advantage that you choose to obtain. Now tell me why you shouldn't have to pay for those advantages but instead should obtain them for free.

The problem is, people are always willing to set up options so long as their best interest is represented. It goes from being "more options are always best" to some sort of manipulative self-interested insert. Same with the whole teleportation changes that have made movement mostly delegated to mass team-TP/SG TP affairs that, while convenient, mostly invalidates a lot of the travel system to make the city even smaller than it is. Of course, you have the option of not using them but that option is likely never exercised or will get you thrown out or excluded from TF teams one way or another. Sometimes, in real life, you need a kick in the teeth to get you on your toes or some crisis/revelation to shine light on the fact you're getting soft and weak. Same thing with the game, but the game really isn't going to force that circumstance so I'll just remind you that the situation you have now is what people clamored for before. You got what you wanted and now you should be satisfied you have it so good. The only thing your other option is is asking to have your cake after you already dug into the one you have. So, no.

You say IO tax, I say near-equivalent exchange. As is, the KB>KD IO already breaks certain powers (looking at you, Bonfire) because some powers just aren't meant to do KD. Getting that functionality using an IO seems somewhat fair but getting that for free is likely a problem you haven't thought through or simply don't care about. At best, I think getting some kind of enhancement value added to Sudden Acceleration's KB>KD should be the best compromise here because no one wants to go picking through powers to balance them just because some players just want everything for free.

I see you have an issue reading context. As for your poll, unless you actually outline what it was asking and its context, liking and not liking KB has nothing to do with attempting to abolish it either wholesale or through coercion. We all know @PeregrineFalcon's statistics were balked. That was the point. You can just make up statistics all day when you don't show the numbers and the context. Like, out of 236 responses to a poll, only 29 liking KB likely excludes the 41 that like *some* KB but don't like uncontrolled AoE KB or chance of KB as well as the 24 who don't like to inconvenience other players who complain loudly and avoids using KB or the 63 that don't like having to use the tools to position for KB but don't want to negatively impact the players that *DO* tactically utilize KB to their team's advantage or the 18 that literally don't care either way because the game is easy.

Well I just can't take this rationality seriously. Is it wasting a slot if it's giving you an effect that you want the power to have? Also, if the IO is giving additional damage slotting (in the case of Overwhelming Force's KB>KD also enhancing damage), how it is a wasted slot? It's no different than putting procs or uniques in other powers so you get those bonuses too. This is how IOs work. You're not meant to just get stuff for free (on top of all the free stuff we already have) all the time. Now maybe they could add accuracy enhancement to Sudden Acceleration so you have a choice of +dmg/KB>KD (Overwhelming Force) and +acc/KB>KD, but slotting these enhancements power by power *IS* the optimal solution for *EVERYONE*, to include the players that like to have some focused KB but altering the scatter on AoE KB as well as players that want all their KB turned off. To push for a change that adds a global switch, you'd have to prove the current situation is detrimental to builds. And by detrimental, that would mean worse with it than without and I think that would be difficult to prove overall.

The simple solution is just add damage enhancement to the IO.

Notoriety comes with zero visual differences. It'd be more akin to an MMA fighter going into two fights with overall normal looking fighters and one fight being far easier than the other. On the point of challenge, this is exactly what most suggest when adding difficulty settings: just mess around with the stats as an option with no mechanical difference. That's what increasing the level does, it's what nerfing yourself does and what this particular suggestion does.

And I'd argue that the amount of risk when fully kitted out in IOs and incarnates is so small, people find rez powers useless let alone support or control in general. How much risk does a full team ever face when not split up? It can sometimes vary but it's rare the situation calls for team wipes or pull tactics or LoS controlling. [EDIT] There aren't as many circumstances in game where failure is even possible. If ever there is risk, that is likely where you'd look. Even taking a team wipe really isn't risk.

I'd also postulate, why not give players max rewards on the lower difficulty too? If farming is so accepted, why not let practically everyone have farming characters. Some might ask what would be the point of running at higher difficulty and the answer is very simply "so you can say that you can". It's basically the inverse of the argument people have for players that ask for more challenge. If players like to trick out their characters to feel powerful, setting the difficulty low also accomplishes that so give those players the same reward as players running cruising builds with soft-capped def and oversaturated AoE.