SomeGuy

I did this comparison a while ago, Brutes definitely do better ST damage then Tankers...but... Average for the ELE/TW tanker finally: Tanker ELA/TW 3:47 (Degen/Gloom) Brute for comparison: Brute TW/ElA 2:54 (Degen/Gloom) *This below is an generalized test. What was posted above was the two ATs wacking on a Pylon.* Just ran an interesting data collection with my ELA/TW tanker and TW/ELE brute. Set at +4/x8. Just killed Council Empire in a repeatable mission where they mainly do SL damage. Timed them both to get to 5 bars of XP. Most groups had about two bosses. Brute is SL Res hard capped and SL defense soft capped. Tanker is SL Res hard capped and around 35% SL defense. Brute: 7:14 Tanker: 6:53 These times are way to close to account for RNG (and neither build is proc heavy anyways) since I did NOT do multiple runs for an average. These are brainless to kill mobs. No debuffs or very strong attacks. The tanker would easily excel anywhere else. This post: Make what you will of this data.

Whoah. This set needs to be tuned for sure. Like, I had suspicions based off the numbers, but damn.

Thanks for this. Been really curious how SM performs and this gives some really good insight. That's a really good time with /SR. I'm curious how the -RES works with Bio. Is Attune worth it? Re BU: You want to just have it up as much as possible with the Gaussian proc in it. Simple as that.

Best DB chain doesn't use the combo system. The Empower chain when you weave in a Snipe every second rotation is really good and a close second actually. So, you can do really well damage wise and use the combo system. Every really high ST chain still does a lot of AOE damage because of Sweeping Strikes.

*looks at thread title* lol yeah.

Re DPA: Most of the time that's the case. Sometimes you choose a lesser DPA attack due to it's animation time so you can cycle back to a better DPA attack as seamlessly as possible. Re muscle memory: You definitely learn what stuff you can forego/need depending on team makeup and buffs by doing stuff like this. Like, I know with enough outside recharge my TW/ENA scrapper can definitely lay down some crazy hurt. My claws/bio? Doesn't benefit from extreme recharge as much as that other character. Just the way it is some times. I do know if I'm damage capped with my Claws/Bio I'm not even going to use Follow-Up in the chain. Same with my DB/ENA. Just doesn't make any sense.

1. I personally like them a lot since they respawn pretty fast and give you a measured time. But I did consider that part a part of the test myself, but I've personally always done this thing as sort of a "benchmark" to give myself an idea what to expect in actual gameplay. 2. Pretty much. This chart definitely doesn't play well with builds that are useful outside of Pylons. It's a good starting point, but not realistic for a lot of gameplay. The rotations being annotated is really good though. I know for myself personally if I can't have it perma, I don't consider it part of my build/run. I know I collect data for myself out own intrinsic value. That may be a part of the rules for it? But I know I personally don't care as long as people share their times and annotate what they did/didn't. Like, when I see a REALLY low time and things aren't annotated, I can normally sus it out that they had hybrid on or lore out. Or both. I'd definitely argue killing pylons makes you a better player cause your muscle memory starts to optimize attacks chains and what not. Let's you more easily pivot in a combat situation when things get weird.

1. Yes. Not the ones in the wild. You can definitely get sub-2 minute, even sub-1 minute, times as a blaster. I've done it and Blasters aren't even my specialty. And I'm talking just straight build. No outside buffs for end, damage, or recharge. As for end? I almost always go the Ageless: Recovery route on my damage dealers. Also, the recovery serums are dirt cheap at the P2W vendor.

Ignore this. I have nothing to contribute to this thread.

I've solo-ed this TF more than a few times. Won't attempt to ever again. The Warwalkers doing some autohit BS enough to annoy me to much. I always fragged Neuron first, then Kitty. This is my way of saying HOLY CRAP

Re-read what I wrote. You're trying to argue with someone who has solo started the MSR with every melee primary in the game. I've solo-ed every TF in the game except the villain Reischman one. I've solo-ed BAF and duo-ed other i-trials. I've solo-ed both i-TFs in their current iteration (used to be you'd scale up to +3). I took a Spines/*REGEN* to 50 and realized the set just does not have enough firepower to do what I want out of a set. I can eek performance out of a lot. I can look at someone's build and tell if it's optimal or just slotting ADHD. I'm not saying your son isn't getting a lot out of the set. I am saying the set doesn't MEASURABLY perform as well as what you are trying to convey. Maybe you should take a look at my signature? There's a few reasons why Spines isn't on that spreadsheet a lot. Nor has it ever torn up the charts for MPL (minutes per level).

Not what I was trying to convey...but you have no idea how hilarious this is to me considering things. As for the "strongest sets" comment...this is incredibly LOL to me. One of my favorite sets to play is Dark Melee. One of the measurably worst sets to play. That set is a big reason I've leaned even HARDER in to "play whatever the eff you want, as long as you're having fun". *It's not a skill thing I was referring to. Your son may actually be a skilled player. I'm not debating that. I'm just stating the fact that Spines is measurably less then mid when compared to other sets. And yes, I have played Spines.

Opinions and this thread are two different things. Fun is subjective. If someone is having fun with measurably the worst performing set combo? Good, keep at it. Not like this game is hard. But if someone is asking for advice on something survivable? Anecdotes and feelings aren't solicited.

Toughness? Stone wins easily. Bio is a glass cannon if ran the way it's meant to be ran. Offense? No taunt aura so runners aren't a factor in this (and if something runs away from your PBAoE Aura you are doing zero DPS). They are actually both close to equal. Yeah. Stone Armour contributes as much to offense as much as Bio Armor (or close to). DPS *is* damage mitigation. Spines is horrible at DPS. ST and AOE. Is it better DPS then a Mind Controller? Yeah. Doesn't mean it does good DPS.

Ice Melee IS a good primary. It isn't known for it's crazy ST or AOE output, but both are solid as all get out and Ice Patch is really a fun ability. I personally don't rank it higher then something like Claws in terms of soft-CC (Claws has TWO ranged attacks that do soft CC, IM doesn't have any attacks that do soft-CC). IM/SD is a funny combo. Shield Charge? Knock down. Ice Patch? Knock down. Frozen Aura? Cold foot stomp. Ice patch melted but it's off cooldown. Lemme LOS this mob around this corner....IN TO ICE PATCH.

Good call. Stone doesn't have a Taunt aura, but Claws has two good ranged attacks that will also put a mob on it's butt. Have fun, runners! Stone adds really good ST and AOE DPS, along with it's survivablity. If not having a taunt aura isn't an issue, I'd highly consider Stone for a secondary.

*reads thread title* Yea. Me too. My first 50 was a Claws/Regen. Did Claws/X with every secondary after that. My name sake character is my Claws/Bio now. It's to fun a primary to me.

Normally, listing some of your 50s would be a flex. Not compared to my experience. I did read and comprehend what OP said about whittling down a mob. DM won't be able to do that if pushing the envelope. The murc DM/SD build you posted is very old and that has been completely outdone. Even within said combo. And anyone with a lot of experience knows, that list by Ston is a great starting point, but some of it is wildly inaccurate in-game. I am glad about the Ice Melee reminder. IM is legit AF and sounds like what the OP wants for sure. Ice Patch is fun and the set does solid ST and AOE.

I was afraid this combo was going to get brought up. No, nothing with Dark Melee as a primary will ever fit this bill. DM doesn't do enough damage. It just won't kill things before they are able to kill you. Full stop. And no, Touch of Fear is not enough either. *I have a DM/SD that is completely setted out. Fun combo, but definitely not as survivable as OP wants. Not sure what experience Lin has with Claws, but overall, Claws has a lot of soft-CC to help mitigate damage. Based on what OP said, Claws might just be the primary they are looking for. Claws exemps better then any other melee primary and has AMAZING ST and AOE DPS. Claws/ENA or Claws/Rad I am thinking? I personally have a set out Claws/Bio and frickin' LOVE IT. DPS *is* damage mitigation. If it's dead, it can't hit you. If something is susceptible to KB, between Focus and Shockwave, you can keep it on it's ass the entire time until it's dead. Big mob? Shockwave for group damage and everything on it's ass, spin for amazing AOE damage, repeat until entire mob dead. Listen to @Linea about this subject.

*reads title* Willpower is bad now? What? I personally prefer other sets, but WP definitely isn't bad.

Claws/Bio and TW/ENA are my two favorite scrappers. I get similar DPS performance with ST and AOE for both. Claws/Bio being MEASURABLY better AOE, not noticably. The TW/ENA is definitely more survivable, but that is because ENA is great in that regard, not a lot to do with the primary. TW got a much needed nerf a while back. It's still REALLY good (top tier).

OK. I was wondering if I was seeing what isn't there, so it's really really nice others have noticed this.

Here's my take on SS/ENA Brute: I always take Agility alpha on my Brutes. Makes it super simple to build. Although I was tempted to do Muscle on this one. I build pretty differently then most BTW. I want to get to, what I consider, "enough" survivability then chase killing things. Dead is the best CC. If someone is arguing that, then they are wrong. Dead things can't hurt you. Dead things can't kill you.

I frickin' love TW. I have a LOT of experience with the primary and have it on Scrappers, Brutes, and Tankers. Basically whatever AT it's available on. I know TW absolutely can dog walk other ATs in terms of performance but it takes pretty acute practice with it and a smart build. TW needs a LOT of recharge. If you can do this, it's totally worth it. With that said... I don't know the numbers via proc % difference between non-momentum and momentum attacks. I just know this. Set can proc a lot, and being able to do a good rotation, kills thing really well. The set numerically performs VERY well. If you also like the look and feel....frick yeah. Anyways, one of my fav scrappers is my TW/ENA: Here's my TW/ELE Brute if you're curious also: As you can see, the scrapper is pretty procced out and the brute is not. @Maelwys is awesome.