thunderforce

All players in the Labyrinth zone now have inherent intangibility, allowing them to move through other players for optimal movement freedom. I see how we got here, with it maybe not being clear in testing how the Labyrinth would be when it was full of players, and I'm not going to ask to turn it off (because that would be futile) but I am begging you not to do it anywhere else. During the City interregnum I tried a bunch of MMOs and if there was one thing that they consistently did, and that I consistently hated, it's that you could just walk through people, which I found extremely damaging to the sense of immersion. I want fighting in a tight space to be different to fighting with plenty of room.

I don't want to relitigate the whole thing either; I promise you I have nothing at all to do with the FBSA Wiki.

I could be mistaken but I think Dacy is not a "he". What I meant was it is very difficult to have a large list of player bases on the wiki and at the same time ensure that none of them is inappropriate.

https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/50104-new-content-policy-for-the-wiki/

I am of much the same mind... but I think rather than go over that again we should seriously consider removal. I'd propose to make the existing 5 pages redirect to [[Base Lists]] which could have links to FBSA pages (if/when they exist) and Dacy's directory.

Having stewed this over, I am (also?) of the opinion that the base lists should simply be removed altogether (and possibly put on the FBSA Wiki). It is fan material, more appropriate for FBSA, and only writing about the actual game is an easy way to comply with the new content policy for the Wiki.

I've added https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Template:Ouro_content. I've added a note on Chriso's talk page. I've been through and edited all the affected pages, mostly to switch them to use the template. I hope that'll be the end of it. ETA: one more edit, the usual kind of thing. I've added a more draconian note on their talk page. If that doesn't work I'll swing the banhammer (first time ever!) leaving them able to edit their own talk page and see if that works.

I think content related to player supergroups belongs on the FBSA wiki (and frankly, on reflection, the same is true of base lists).

This user is adding the Ouro arc numbers for lots of badges to the wiki - good - but doing it in a very minimal style and sometimes in French (and with one or two outright goofs). I haven't said anything to them because I think the first thing to do is write a template for this information (or find the existing one) and only then ask them to use it. However, I'm off to the Worldcon and there's little chance I'll do this until I return, so I'm mentioning this here just in case anyone knows of an existing template or is feeling keen enough to write one in the next week...

I'm posting this here after a conversation with Conviction on Discord. It would be helpful to me, and I hope it would not be too much work, for the START/P2W Vendor to offer XP reductions in the same way she offers XP boosters (but without attendant bonus influence). This would let people on shards with long-term bonus XP like Reunion play the game at a more normal pace, or more generally let people who want to collect all the arcs (etc) level more slowly without the slightly awkward feeling of turning off XP altogether.

That's not evidence of malice. (On the face of it, it would be extraordinary if there weren't such differences; people make mistakes, passcodes change, base themes change.) Well, they certainly didn't do it shortly after reverting any kind of apparently malicious change; that's clear from the history; so I think the most reasonable explanation is that they did it preemptively - and probably not to prevent malicious editing, because why would a malicious editor pay any attention to a polite notice asking them not to do it? And I have said (speaking as someone who has now reviewed basically every edit on all five pages) that I have no evidence of any such, so unless you can find some, I suggest we proceed on the basis that it's never happened. That's simply not true. What I have been saying all along is that I have seen no evidence of malicious edits to base lists on the wiki. If you have seen evidence of malicious edits to the wiki, show it to me! The entire editing history is there. (But please remember the last time you did, it turned out a) it wasn't malicious and b) I'd already examined that specific example and shown that it was obviously not malicious in this very thread). If you haven't, then since I've said precisely nothing about what you've seen happen to the directory, I'm obviously not disputing anything you've seen. Furthermore more and more of what you write seems to have no actual relationship to a disagreement over the content of the wiki. We agree that you will review any edits that have been made in the normal way, add them to your directory, and only then overwrite the wiki's table. We (presumably) agree that if someone _does_ make a malicious edit to the wiki, that procedure will overwrite it. As far as I can see the only actual disagreement (in terms of what the page should actually have written on it) is whether the comment in the source should say "Bases are most easily updated ..." or "You may find it easier to ...". Since the first of these statements is not actually known to be true for any given editor (and it seems very likely for at least some editors it is false), and since your apparent rationale for it is a problem that there is no evidence for and that the procedure we do agree on would fix, it seems obvious that we should prefer the second. Please at least try to address this question in any reply. Generally it's best that you discuss the contents of pages, not the character of other editors.

I don't propose to remove them either, so I'm not sure what choice I'm making here. At this point, as far as I can make out, your entire rationale for wanting changes to go through you is malicious editing, in spite of the fact that there is zero evidence that this ever happened. That doesn't make any sense to me.

You didn't do it. Perhaps you don't understand what is meant by a comment? On my proposed version of the page, <!-- If you are adding a base by editing the wiki, recommend adding it at the top to make it easier for the CRs to copy the information into their base directory. You may find it easier to follow the instructions in External Links to add your base to the CRs' directory. They will add it here shortly. --> appears when you edit the page. This is a comment. It isn't shown to people just viewing the page. That's the distinction here. You have never added a comment. Yes. If you actually read this thread you will find that those passcodes were added by BlackSpectre an hour before that. It wasn't malicious at all - it was just an error on their part which they rapidly corrected. That's because there isn't actually any evidence. There's been one suggested case which turned out to be a simple error. Furthermore, if someone was to make a malicious change, you'd detect it when you reviewed changes since the last directory upload, something you already said you intend to do. You have in fact said that changes have to go through you; you've said that to make changes you should be contacted and A reasonable person reading that would conclude that changes added normally would be overwritten. It's not the case that every facet of your contribution has to go through me - obviously not since your version of the page is _still up_. How about "It may be easier to update bases in the base directory ..." ? It's not at all clear to me that it is "most easy" for a wiki editor to chase off somewhere else. I'm not sure that option is available. You can't unilaterally remove them.

It's not, no - the Paragon Wiki didn't have it (or, as far as I can see, pages of this kind at all, so I'm a little confused about this). It was added to the Homecoming Wiki in January 2023. (However, tl;dr - maybe skip to the end, I hope we can reach an agreement.) It hasn't been a problem at all; as discussed above, there don't seem to have been any malicious wiki base list edits ever, even in the 2 years before that warning was added. Obviously I appreciate you have a lot of information about bases, yes, but that is not the same as saying that you should declare that all changes to a page should go through you. Uninventive and SaphirantCross know far more about running City of Heroes on Linux than I do, but that doesn't mean they can do that with https://homecoming.wiki/w/index.php?title=City_of_Heroes_on_Linux. That wouldn't change in the scenario I envisage. As far as I can see all that would change is that occasionally you'd have to copy a manual edit into your directory - very occasionally, perhaps once every 2 months. Er... a comment in the source doesn't appear to an ordinary user viewing the page. It's only visible to people editing it. That's an appropriate place to have editing instructions. I don't want you (or anyone) asserting external control over any page on the wiki. If you don't do that, I'm perfectly happy for you to edit it. To have this additional information effects a great improvement - I certainly don't object to _that_. You can add pages to your "watchlist" (and I expect any page you edit is added by default) by clicking the star at the top right, next to View history. In Preferences you can set "Email me when a page or a file on my watchlist is changed". However, part of what I'm saying is I hope even that's not necessary. If you're checking the history immediately before a bulk upload, it's extremely easy then and there to see what (if anything) has been changed (with the "Compare Selected Revisions" button). To be honest, my aim in writing "If you are adding a base by editing the wiki, recommend adding it at the top to make it easier for the CRs to copy the information into their base directory" was not to _encourage_ making manual edits, but to make sure if they were made, they all ended up in the same place to make it easier to copy the information. Hence I have no great attachment to that wording. How about "Rather than adding a base to this list, you may find it easier to follow the instructions in External Links to add your base to the CRs' directory. They will add it here shortly" ?

I appreciate we want different things. That is why we are having a discussion where we can explain _why_ we want what we want and where other interested editors can weigh in. One of us might change their mind - just as although my preferred option was to remove all ERP bases, hence the edit removing one as "clearly inappropriate" and me being a bit embarrassed about letting it slip in to begin with, when Draeth Darkstar chimed in supporting what you proposed, I said we might as well go with that.[1] Failing that we might agree to abide by a third party's decision (eg, AboveTheChemist) or see what higher authority says. However, I'm not clear why you are so opposed to it. It's the work of a moment to check the revision history, something you intend to do anyway - and since (for example) seven bases were added to the Everlasting list (by far the biggest) in 2023, I really don't see that capturing information from manual edits is going to cause you any particular problems. From my point of view I don't think it is appropriate for any editor to assert external control over any page. Suppose I think (and it's likely) that I am the largest contributor (post-2019) to the Player's Guide to the Cities. Perhaps I would find it more convenient to edit it on my computer and have people send me updates. However, I would not even consider putting a a note on it saying people should send me updates and that I might overwrite any changes they make. I also in general don't think it's appropriate to have editing instructions on the page, rather than as comments on the source. The former is shown to users who just want to use the page. The editing instructions should be seen only by editors. (Indeed, the existing text saying "Please do not remove or recategorize other people's base postings" should probably be moved.) I've edited https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/User:Thunderforce/Reunion_Bases so the comment in the source now says: "If you are adding a base by editing the wiki, recommend adding it at the top to make it easier for the CRs to copy the information into their base directory. You may find it easier to follow the instructions in External Links to add your base to the CRs' directory. They will add it here shortly." I think that's a reasonable way to make that option visible to editors, but without any suggestion that editing the page in the normal way is forbidden. However, given the discussion above, I'm not aware of any malicious base edits on the Wiki, so I don't think continuing to permit ordinary editing opens the door to that particular issue. [1] I appreciate there has been a "no ERP bases" rule declared so this is moot, but it's an example of the kind of way one might hope this discussion works.