marcussmythe

It was not. Developers chose not to port it to Scrappers, and removed or derated the crit functionality when they ported it to Stalkers, because they feared it would be too good in the hands of those ATs. Then Developers gave us Stalker ATOs(?), Bioarmor (??!!) and Titan Weapons (!!!!!). As Barbie once said, “Math is Hard, lets go shopping!”

I'm not convinced Tankers have an advantage when it comes to aggro control, and if they do, it's pretty minor. Tankers and Brutes have the same threat modifier (4) and they have the same taunt durations (auras, attacks, Taunt, etc). The only advantage Tankers have is Gauntlet, which is overrated (imo). Consider: 1) It only effects single target attacks. So a set like Titan Weapons with a plethora of AoEs gets less benefit from it. 2) Its radius changes based on a power per power basis, with longer recharging powers having a wider radius. Take a look at Tanker Energy Melee. Look at Barrage (I know it's a weak power), Gauntlet's radius is only 3 feet. That's less than half melee range. If your target isn't holding hands with someone, they're not getting hit by Gauntlet. (In fairness, Energy Transfer and Total Focus have much larger radii, 11 and 17 ft respectively.) 3) It's likely only hitting things in melee, which are more likely already hit by your aura(s) and/or AoEs anyways. Okay, so it sounds like they're marginally better AoE tanks than Brutes because they do have extra AoE taunt effects. However: 1) Brutes deal more damage than Tankers. More damage = more thread. More threat = more aggro. 2) Taunt effects are heavily based on duration, and Gauntlet's duration (well, all other taunt effects) is completely outstripped by Taunt - which as I said, is equal to Tankers. If a Brute is Taunting, anything other than Taunt will not pull aggro. Tankers shine when playing in sub-optimal groups (not bashing these groups, just stating a fact), non-tricked out builds, more casual tanking (eg: less/no active Taunting), and overbuilding survivability. If you're going for maximum performance (builds, teams, etc), then a Brute has the edge. Prior to CoH's shutdown, one of my most played / invested characters was a tank, and I enjoyed being reliably survivable in a wider range of situations, so I'm not trying to hate on Tankers, here. Id not claim a substantial advantage for Tanks in the aggro control department - and your point about increased damage meaning increased threat may well consume even that. Im a former heavy player of tanks (Invuln/EM, I have strong feelings) who keeps stalling out leveling tanks because I keep looking at them, squinting, trying to find some regard in which the Brute is not a better choice - and having great trouble doing so - so I bring up a Brute instead. Ive very mich tried to squint at tanks until the numbers change and a magical justification for their existence falls out, beyond ‘maybe slightly better at grunting on teams assuming a bad team, bad play, or bad character design’ Thats an awfully small hat for a launch Archetype to have.

Opposite actually since SD and Bio's +damage% buff is higher for a scrapper. Combine that with that higher buff affecting a higher base damage on a scrapper than a brute or tank. Fury doesn't really have anything to do with it as fury buffs base damage, not enhanced/buffed damage. Interestingly enough I noticed the -damage debuff in bio for being in defensive stance is the same for both brute and scrapper, but the offensive stance damage buff is higher for scrapper. You are absolutely correct. I had meant to type ‘On Tank or Scrapper rather than on Brute’ And yes, for the same reason, Defensive Adapation hurts a Brutes output less, again because Fury.

Tanks remain better for unbuffed survival at low levels, and for aggro management. IOs or team buffs consume the survival advantage in large part, and the aggro management advantage is nice on large teams when things are falling apart - its a little easier to put it all back together. So if your intended playtime is ‘8 man teams doing really hard things’ (because the thing is hard, or because your team makes them hard’, a single tank per team still has a role. If you plan on spending much playtime at all outside of that scenario, you will probably be happier on a brute. This is unfortunately a common tradeoff between the original hero and villian ATs - the Villian AT tends to trade a little of the Hero ATs raw survival or team power for a large advantage in utility or damage output, probably due to the idea of the Villian ATs as ‘selfish solo’ builds. The low difficulty ceiling on CoH, and the lack of ‘Raid or Die’ (and these are -positives-) results in less draw for the ‘slightly better at teaming at large costs elsewhere’ ATs.

Kinetic Melee is also not a staple, and there are reasons. If you want to KM, Id run it on a Tank or Scrapper - its big ‘draw’ is an innate Dambuff mechanic, which shows less well on a Brute due to brute’s fury being such a large bonus. Also, the mechanic was one I found troublesome to make work for me. Radiation is getting good reviews as an AOE capable set with an incidental (dont plan on it, but it can make life easier) heal and decent if not stellar single target. Of the three, if you want to punch people with glowing hands, Id go Radiation.

The set is solid without your capstone - though I ran a storm of toggles, which drained it some. Once 38 hits, the capstone out of Bioarmor can raise your END recovery to the maximum the game alloqs, on a large group - so as lonf as you slot it up, END basically goes aaay as a concern, and if it comes up anhway, you have efficient adapatation.

In the alternate, Id say that the Sentinel Secondaries are a test case of things that should be back-ported to the other defensive sets. Option for non-clicky mezz prot in SR? Yes please. Absorb Shields? I’ll take two. And didnt they combine Relements and Renergy on Invuln the way that Stalkers did? (if not, they should, and give it a regen/rec sustain - would make the set much more attractive in the IO world)

Whaf Im told is when they gave it the current animation time, they animated it as if its OUTGOING DAMAGE was X + Y, where X is the current outgoing damage and Y is the current self damage. And yeah. I killed myself with it more than twice over the years.

Given the greater ability of the Stalker to control the pace of battle, Im onay either way with them ballparking ‘around’ each other on damage out. Now of course all results are thrown off by a -certain- powerset... It does raise a question, though? While Bioarmor isnt the best designed set for tanking on, IMHO, could Bio/Titan push Tank DPS up out of ‘god I hate soloing’ into ‘vaguely relevant’? Im sure it would be quite nice on Brutes (though nothing like scrapper performance) - Ive a Spines/Bio Brute IOed and Incarnated else Id roll one (though the impact of Bio on Brute DPS will be less than on Tank, Brutes still have about the same base, plus fury - and the Tank’s Brusing comes at the cost of using Defensive Sweep regularly. Boo for Defensive Sweep as first power...) Gooo Bio Armor!

Im talking buying generic recipies from workbench. Or just hunt till recipies drop on you. :) not certain about AH prices on generic IOs/Recipies

It really does seem (though weve not yet done Apples:Apples comparisons) that Stalker is -embarrasingly- better on throughput than Scrapper. As Im less familiar with StJ, id want to see an StJ Scrapper or MA Stalker to be sure. My money is that most of that grows out of the Stalker ATO rehide and resultant shenanigans.

Tough is quite valuable for an Invuln Brute, as it makes it much easier to cap S/L (if this is a design goal). Weave is a boon to any set that has, or wishes to pursue, defense. It may be -less- valuable on a Superstrength character, as Superstrength's crash devalues the impact of +DEF. However, if you are otherwise softcapped, -20 DEF is a still reasonably sturdy 25% DEF.

Not always. *looks at the Paragon Protectors Minute of Glory* Im not sure how NPC versions of powers work - are they drawn from PC versions? If so, which version? My guess is that when a new NPC is created, the creator sets what powers they want it to have, and those powers are then baked into that NPC at whatever values they had at the time the NPC was created - unless further juggled by the creator - consider certain NPCs that can attack or summon while in what is for PCs an 'affecting self only' intangible, etc. Thus an I14 NPC will tend to have an I14 version of whatever powers it has baked into it, and later changes to the PC versions of the powers wont show up on the NPC.

Kaeladin - I want to thank you for your time and effort spent building and running things on test to get clean data, when most of us are just throwing 'what we have on live' at the nearest pylon, and especially for your very 'condition controlled' reports and multiple runs. Im not surprised to see Savage Melee showing brutally well on Stalker - especially as it is my understanding that its an underperformer on most ATs. However, I'll note that the Stalker ATOs radically improve the damage output of the class, such that BS, another underperformer on the other ATs that bear it - so it may simply be that Stalker ATO set + anything is going to be impressive. My current picks for 'that would be nice to see' (assuming you care to) 1.) StJ/Bioarmor Stalker in a high recharge build. Its my understanding that StJ/SR used to be the king of Melee Pylon testing, and I anticipate that offensive adaptation will provide more benefit than the recharge reduction in SR (I may be wrong). Im also curious as to how the transition from proc % to PPM will impact the old king, as I believe its old, live numbers reflect % procs rather than PPM (I may be wrong). Can Stalkers hold the crown for leet melee deeps in the face of the awesome might of the Biotitans? 2.) Is there any methodology that would let one reliably test with a crowd around you? Anything Bioarmor can do, Shield can do BETTER (at least for the sets it would take) and 'surrounded by minions to feed AAO' is a very common real-game case, though its hard to duplicate on a Pylon. Maybe we should plan to get a controller to bring a crowd to the DPS-test, and then keep that crowd locked down just to feed it. As such, Id be really interested in seeing the classic double-perma-buildup build DM/Shield or the current 'hot chick', Broadsword/Shield Stalker. 3.) What do we think other outliers, high and low, might be? Id be curious to get numbers for some cellar-dweller sets (Ice, Energy Melee, and their like) and also run a set or two with and without damage-buff defense sets, to get a better feel for the impact. If any of the above sounds like a demand for your further time and effort, please do not take it as such. I appreciate what youve done so far.

*nods* No worries - and me too, that reply of mine was snarkier than needed.

Ummm... the FF bubbles have BOTH Typed AND Positional Defense. Look again. Umm... the original proposal at the top does not have positional defense, merely typed. Look again.

It is a struggle in the 30s. Then you hit 38, and get your Bioarmor Capstone, and it gets a little bit nuts.

Invuln is a defense-based set -- its totals are very closely comparable to SD by the point of Tough Hide. Solid numbers. And better resists than SD. And Dull Pain, which is amazing. OTOH, SD gets to not have holes in its defenses, (positional def>>>>>typed defense, and that is before IOs come out to play), gets to buff self on teams, gets to buff team on teams, and then theirs the perma-buildup and the teleaoe. Matter of picking which you like more, though I'll note that Stalker takes Invuln, merges REle and REnergy to add Stealth - If I were to update Invuln for the modern era, Id do the same merge, replace one with a scaling +END/+REC power based on drawing a crowd (similar to WP), and replace Unstoppable (cottage rule or not!) with a +DAM/-DEF (Or Res, whatever floats your boat) about on par with Bioarmor's Offensive Stance (roughly +50% Dam for -10% resist). Id probably also scrub out 'Typed Defense' and replace with 'positional defense' at the current levels invuln provides.

Agreed as to minimal clicks, and to needing another layer. Consider moving from (heresy!) Typed to Positional Defense. We really dont need another set with holes in it, and weve a lot of typed-defense sets already, and the existence of a mixed-mitigation positional-defense no-holes set that also includes perma-buildup means that the bar has been substantially raised to make another power set. The balance point is probably Shield. Look at Shield. Look at the DEF and RES from shield. Then look at AAO and Shield Charge. Once your giving out the same DEF and RES as Shield, you need something 'else' for the set thats as good as AOO and Shield Charge, or you are kinda wasting time. Based on current trends, a passive regen and end recovery would be a popular choice, and/or maybe a pair of PBAOE siphon-style powers, one for health, one for END. Or a teleport nuke and perma-buildup, if you think you can sell it. Ive long said I want the Shield mechanics without the big hunk of wood and the animation weirdness that go with it.

I still like to be out punching nazis on my characters, and living an army of alts, so I'm not yet in the 'costume contest/hang out and hand out' stage. I live on the Help channel, answer all the questions I once asked as many times as they need to be answered, and am always down to drop what I'm doing and help someone with an EB/AV/Wipe Recovery/Glowy Hunt. Cause its Paragon - there should be a hero there when you need one. The chance to do that for real people is so much better than the chance to do it for an NPC (but I have trouble walking past a purse-snatching in Atlas, too...)

/signed

War Mace - roughly agreed as to damage, though pure smashing (when your being out damaged by sets that do ‘good’ damage types) is not all that great. Hard agree as to animations and weapon choices - though the Sauron mace is nice, its not for everyone. Also hard agree as to disorient. Sometimes being able to make a mob or two drunken superspeed away, breifly, is a pretty questionable ‘bonus’, especially when higher damage sets with better AOE are KDing huge swaths of foes. Disorient is low enough additional value, with signficant enough downside, that its IMHO a quirk, rather than a strength, on a powerset.

You still need to have some kind of reference point. Considering the endless combination of IOs that are available, it's impossible to create a standard base-line of performance on them. It's like saying let's balance the game like everyone's got their own personal Pocket Kin. Or their own Empathy Buff Bot. Performance on SOs is the only way we can begin to discuss balance between powersets. To return to the original point - pretty much all the original one-hand weapon sets - War Mace, Axe, Broadsword. Really, a LOT of the original sets, in every AT, could use a look see, as they seem to suffer (with a few exceptions) when compared to their later-developed counterparts. For me at least its a running joke - when people ask 'should I use Powerset X or Y', I often ask them which one was added later - usually a safe bet to be better designed and more effective. As far as reigning in the supersets - I dont disagree - but that probably wants its own thread (as admittedly did my IO-balance-side-trip)

Shield would still be a decent set if you replaced AoO, Shield Charge, Grant Cover, and Phalanx Fighting with blank powers that did nothing and could be skipped. The combination of resistance and positional DEF is a very, very strong one. The fact that it also gives a large AOE attack and a perma-buildup is simply additional sauce.

45 or 50 generic IOs are comfortably superior to SOs. Essentially, 3 SOs=2 Lvl 50 IOs If your budget is tight, check lvl 45 IOs? Very nearly as good as 50, but IIRC much cheaper.