marcussmythe

My only hesitation here is to compare sets to what people can do with IOs. IOs aren't the balancing point for sets, and it would be impossible to create a standard around IOs. That said, you can still make good arguments for some tweaks to Stone Armor. Yet they are there, and we can continue to ignore their impact on game balance, or we can accept that IOs will radically change the game, and at least, if not the underlying ATs, add IOs to certain ATs to address the problems created for the game as a whole by the relative impact of IOs on other ATs. AT has problems that only exist at the IO level? Heres an ATO set that addresses those problems, since its only applicable at the IO level, anyway.

It gets a little better -- particularly with Integration, Dull Pain, and at the end Moment of Glory. But Regen is a very expensive set to build for (it needs lots and lots of +recharge) and click-intensive to play. Once good(?) thing is that once you pick up Resilience, you're immune to being stunned by wakies. That should tell you a fair bit about what to expect. Class features: 1.) Better dying 2.) Debt Badges

The whole tanker vs controller vs brute vs mastermind thing was an interesting debate back in the day: unfortunately it is unresolvable in the general case because there's some fundamental irreconcilable issues you can't address without making severe changes to the game as a whole. This is less a question of how to address the issues, and more a question of whether you can convince everyone to accept a suboptimal compromise that fails to address most of the issues while targeting a narrow set of them. Short version: Everything must be soloable. Tankers must survive multiple players' worth of aggro. No archetype should cap out radically lower than any other when progressed via inventions or incarnate abilities. Logically, you can only keep two of these. As to resistance debuffs. Resistance automatically resists resistable resistance debuffs. There's no special resistance debuff resistance. Resistance itself is resistance debuff resistance. This one used to confuse players all the time. There are defense attributes. There are defense attribute debuffs: these reduce your defense attributes. There is defense attribute resistance. These resist any attempt to debuff (change) your defense attributes. This all makes sense. But resistance is different. There aren't actually any resistance attributes. There are actually damage type attributes. What we call "resistance" is resistance to changing those attributes, just like defense attribute resistance is resistance to changing *those* attributes. So if you try to use smashing damage to lower your target's health via the smashing attribute, smashing resistance would lower that damage. Think of smashing damage as a health debuff. Smashing resistance "resists that debuff." How do you debuff resistance? Well, in the game engine you implement that by trying to lower the resistance aspect of that attribute - the "resistance" aspect of the "smashing" attribute (or whatever). And what could possibly resist that change? Well, you're trying to change some aspect of the smashing attribute, so smashing attribute resistance should resist that change. But smashing attribute resistance is what we players call "smashing damage resistance." So damage resistance is its own resistance to debuffing. Because damage resistance *is* damage-resistance-debuff resistance, there's no way to make something more resistant to resistance debuffs without increasing their actual resistance to that particular damage type (there's some technical gotchas in there, but this is the simple version). Thank you for that concise discussion. Inasmuch as most AVs do not have unusual resistances, most AVs do not display unusual resistance to defense debuffs - unlike the case for most other debuffs, where AVs benefit from an additional, very high, degree of resistance to the debuff. As far as 'everyone caps out in a similar state' - at SOs, Tanks have a meaningful survival advantage over high damage ATs. IOs and Incarnates consume that survival advantage until all ATs can reach the same level of practical survivial - Didnt die and killed them all is really all the survival that matters - but that no combination of IOs and Incarnates allow the Tank to consume the firepower advantage of their formerly squishy peers. This may be unavoidable, inasmuch as base damage is fixed by AT, but softcap defense is softcap defense whoever you are. If, for purpsoes of argument, DEF was limited to, say, incarnate softcap for tanks, 'normal' softcap for Brutes, and then declining pretty rapidly from there, you might see more value in the heavy ATs. You would also see a revolution by the majority of players who are used to having their IOed/Incarnated non-tanks tank +4/x8 and AVs and the like, so the idea is a non-starter, and we have to either address the back side of things (By giving the Tank more damage, directly or otherwise), or accept that Tanks are not, and never will be, noteworthy performers outside of having aggro management advantages while grunting on teams.

Energy Melee (Utterly wretched. You could take away the self damage, return to the original animation time, and it would still be an at best second-tier set) Ice Armor (Pays a bit too much in survivability for its aggro and debuff, IMHO) Stone Armor Outside Granite/look at the penalties on Granite (Everyone can be supertough with IOs, but Granite pays way too much for it) Broadsword (but be careful - Stalker BS is vv good, because of other mechanics - on every other AT that has it, BS is terrible) Regen (No clue what to do with this. Willpower was given Regen's old hat, and does it better. Bioarmor was given Regen's new hat - and does it better)

I'm having some issues as a SS brute with Regen. I'm only Level 11 at the moment, does it get better over time as you unlock new powers? I currently only have Fast Healing and Reconstruction unlocked. No melee character can really be judged until it has a big chunk of its defense set, slotted out a bit, and wearing at least SOs. So, call it in the 22-30 range. Until you do that, the defense sets are providing so little value that you are essentially a low-damage blaster trapped in melee.

Almost everyone gets ruined by certain debuffs. (Im looking at you *Targeted*) Tanks are gonna probably need support against -something-. Thats okay, its a team game.

You can't use Psi and everything else at the same time. Not as 'pure' of a hole as invul but still a hole. Someone demonstrated an Invuln Stalker to me last night that put out 75% resist to Psi. Now, of course, it utterly eschewed recharge, didnt bother to push its DEF up, but its a fair point that if your only vision for a tank is ‘wall’, or are willing to even just devote a single build slot to ‘wall’, psi damage does not have to be a hole.

If the elec and shield teleport AOEs do not break hide (and one assumes that the Spring Attack one would not either) - and forgive a stalker noobs confusion - does that suggest one could chain all three without fear of retaliation, undetected by mobs? ... surely not.

I am not hopeless on that topic, as they are apparently looking at both Tanks and at ‘Certain Melee Sets’, and their willingness to do radical things to snipe fills me with hope. Currently leveling an EM Brute for nostalgia - major changes to either or both may result in more EM characters.

WP is a solid set, and IOs are very strong for it. I think they make an even -bigger- change for TW and Bio (and thus why IOed Titan/Bio is a monster). IF your wanting to go Titan/Bio, id consider doing it on a Scrapper - Bio’s Offensive stance advantage is much more impactful on a Scrapper.

Yeah, SDs advantage on damage shows more strongly on Tank or Brute than Scrapper, because Fury. Same is ofc also true of Bio.

May I sig you, Sir?

If youve no preferences between the three, I would suggest WP. WP feeds the heavy endurance demands of TW, without the micro needed by Bio, and is (IMHO) an overall smoother set to play than Invuln, lacking some of the vulnerabilities and 'I0 release clunky' of the older set.

You can, however, put BS with a Shield. I can only anticipate BS+Shield, assuming it has an audience, rather thoroughly outperforms Katana. :) For extra credit, put it on a Stalker, slot the ATO, and live your life auto-critting headsplitter, cause why not?

Agreed. But my point more being that (it seems to me) once a tank gets to softcap plus 50-60% resist... thats enough to not die, in my admittedly limited experience. Better to have no holes to anything, and not die, than to have vulnerabilities, and not-die-even-harder to certain damage types. 90% Smashing/Lethal Resistance Plus softcap DEF looks really sexy on paper, I'll grant. I just dont think theres much in the game that -justifies- going for it. Similarly, you can burn a -lot- of slots pushing from 40-50% resist to energy - to almost no benefit - because the resist powers we get for it aren't very good, and resist enhancements aren't very good, and (as you illustrate) the real value of improvements doesn't kick in until the last percentage points... but as above, almost nothing in the game values those very high resist %s. I think this is some of where my love affair with Shield Defense comes in - POSITIONAL Defense (no holes) and adequate, broad-spectrum resists - no holes. Almost nothing in the game kills you through your primary resist axis - they kill you through your holes, or through debuffs.

Very much. Im about to hit 38 and the Bioarmor Capstone.. so we will see at 40, and then again at 50 with IOs. That said, theres 'doesnt level easy' and then theirs 'really only comes together once fully slotted with IOs', and Im starting to think that TW/Bio is the later. Which might make sense, given the obscense performance of damage+resilience - the developers stated they dont/wont/cant balance past SOs, and Id anticipate in an SO only world, TW/Bio would be far, far, far less than it is now.

Im more suggesting that what Invuln is 'granted' in the form of its 90% S/L isnt worth the cost in other places, and that the WP or other sets that can get into the 40-60% range while having so much more other stuff like regen, or END, or whatever may show a bit better in IOs. This isnt 'Invuln is turruble' arguement, Im just thinking about how IOs impact various sets in a disparate fashion.

Mines.. kinda stalled? I love the throughput, I love the 'OMGWTFBBQ'. But shes so much -work- to play. I think stacking two micro-intensive sets may have been a bridge too far for me. So now I'm leveling an SR/Claws tank with no hasten (PB on auto, nothing else to manage but HP), and an Energy Melee/Energy Aura/Energy Mastery Brute (Not cause good, just cause fun) Is it though? I mean sure the tw bio build is only softcapped in defensive but honestly I found it had no issue melting av just chilling in efficient the entire time. You have three heals if you will that come up pretty quick on that build. I havent gotten my TW/Bio to IOs and Incarnates yet - maybe it will be different then. In my 30s, Im very much struggling to find fun, no matter how powerful.

Katana has faster animations, and hits nearly as hard. Broadswords big relative strength is you can combine it with Shield - which Katana cannot do.

Then it really sounds like your in your happy place. Your soloing AVs so you can get through content, your killing crowds, bosses arent slowing you down a lot - I think at this point a new character is just that - a new character, not an improved replacement. Figure out what you want more of and what your willing to give up to get it. ((FWIW - after time with numbers, Im moving away from Invuln towards EA and WP for 'generic tough' characters - with of course Shield lurking as a predator in the background. Im starting to feel that INV pays too much for its S/L in the form of build holes)) Ill look at the build - but as I do - what do you want from it that its not doing? More damage? More survival? More end stability? Given above context, I'll assume damage... Be warned, Im not the best build tech out there.

I'll be honest, I wouldn't feel comfortable skipping out on ResEl on my Tanker. As you point out, rare will be the Fire Damage attack that seals the deal, but I'd feel like I had left the figurative door open, letting the Fire damage undercut me enough that the other stuff could finish me off. I'll admit, this could easily just be me being paranoid, and playing into other habits of mine (I have a strong tendency, for instance, to overvalue my Primary & Secondary sets). But it's where I'm coming from, for better or worse. Either way, thanks for making me think about it. Generator Ive been thinking about it more. Got called out on a build after I had wrecked Endurance Recovery pursuing DEF and RES, and then looking at other builds that gladly throw a few % points of resist overboard to save a slot or three - where that slot can provide MORE Res against things that matter by going into providing a set bonus. Bigger think... It seems to me that RES shows the most value in the 40-60% range. While it looks nice on paper to go from say 80% to 90%... Im pretty sure not much is going to kill you at 80% resist. On the other hand, sub 40% - the mob just splattered you across the pavement, assuming its a nice big pull and they all do that type - barring significant DEF. I also wonder if thats why WP 'feels' better for me than something like Invuln, once IOs hit - it gains tons of healing, of END, closes the psionics hole, and still reaches DEF softcap. What does it give up? Well, it takes a hit to most resistances (but your softcapped and healing faster) and gives up a HUGE amount of Smash/Lethal - but by late game, Smash/Lethal is no longer the vast majority of the damage - energy and psi are getting thrown around in buckets. When was the last time S/L killed a tank at 50 in IOs? Honest question. It seems to me the killers are Energy, Psi, and debuffs.

It would be interesting to see what EM would do if it lost its 'no/reduced crits' flag. I contemplated an EM Stalker (due to my love for the set back when it was good), but then saw that no-crit ET clause and walked on.

Stalkers are doing crazy things due to some mechanical interactions between their Assassins strike, their archetype origin proc, and crits. Essentially, as I understand it (I do not Stalker well), your attacks build up levels of 'gonna have a high chance to crit on my next assassin strike). So you swing three times, building it up to its max, then throw a fast-cast assassin strike for lots of damage. Then, youve got your ATO proc IN your assassin strike, which has a high chance to proc a rehide. Now your hidden, and you attack from hidden for an automatic crit, not with your assassin strike, but with your best single target damage attack. This is where street justice comes in, as it also has a combo-points style mechanic for extra damage - which you fire off on your from-hide-auto-crit. Now your unhidden, and firing off your 3 swings to build up for your high crit chance, high rehide chance Assassin strike - and then you fire off your big burster - and were off to the races again. Back in the day, the king was StJ/SR - SR for more recharge, StJ for combo mechanics and fast high damage attacks. Its position as top melee DPS MAY be threatened by the introduction of Broadsword (high single target attacks) and/or sheild (AAO), but Id be talking out my rear if I said one way or the other - Im not an expert on those sets or on Stalkers in general, and while Titan Weapons/Bio is currently blowing up the Pylon charts, I dont have any data for what Stalkers are capable of in the homecoming environment with new power sets. I'll side-note that neither BS nor StJ has the largest single hits in Stalker Primaries, but the biggest one, Energy Melee, cannot crit on its best attack and only gets partial crits on its second best attack. Were this otherwise, it might compete with StJ in that regard. (Srsly. EM isnt allowed to have nice things) ALL THAT BEING SAID - when it comes to damage... at least for me... 1.) Can you do enough AOE to bring down large groups in a fast enough time that the character can move at a decent clip through large crowds. This isnt all that high a bar - minions are fragile - and it goes to your ability to make a high end character 'pay for itself' - feel like you can play the character to get stronger, rather than farming for your own characters on another character. 2.) Can you do enough single-target to bring down bosses without it feeling tedious. This is a bit harder - my spines brute struggled with this until late game. 3.) Can you do enough single-target to bring down an AV. Like above even moreso. Made worse by +4 AVs - my main, the aformentioned Spines/Bio, couldnt crack a +4 Make, even when I pulled out daggers, shivans, lore pets, yadda. Maybe I'm just bad. All those are -for me- the basic game functions of a damage dealer, and my satisfaction or dissatisfaction with a character grows out of their ability to perform those functions while surviving whatever is attacking them.

Could we look at weaker versions of the Incarnate Hybrid slots that are just toggles (or passives, or w/e) that one can just leave on? Id much prefer ‘less, but stable’ to ‘Awesome/NotAwesome/Awesome/NotAwesome’ Some would probably have to get taken back quite a few steps if they didnt have downtime (Melee particularly strikes me as crazy good even if you cut it in half), but for my preferred playstyle, having the option would be very pleasant.

Semi-random observation: Between the low scheduling of +Res Enhancements, the low values of many +Res Powers, the fantastic mitigation provided by +DEF (and the relative ease of +DEF from IOs and extra powers), Im seeing more and more people skipping +RES passives or turning them into mules, ignoring enhancing the actual +RES portion of the power. I know that in particular Ive been advised that the resist elements in invuln is skippable - and this makes some sense. When was the last time fire damage killed you? Me neither. Energy OTOH... Not really call to action, just funny thought.