justicebeliever

First, I don't think anyone is trying to create fear...What purpose would it serve here? Just to be a troll? I guess, but then what can you do with trolls? For me the fear (or uncertainty, doubt, what have you) is that if Homecoming fails due to some legal reason, it'll just mean the death knell of any large scale effort like this going forward. For me (only speaking for me), it's CoH or bust, and it's MMORPG or bust. I don't want to play other MMORPG's (never have since CoH left in 2012), and I don't want to play CoH by myself. I said it in a different post - I don't want a Small Singleplayer Virtual Machine RPG - SSVMRPG. Playing with strangers is 3/4 of the fun, I don't want the hassle of maintain a VM, and I love the benefit of having a team of coders/developers that can maintain and make improvements Fact: This is largely uncharted territory here - a large unauthorized server of still-owned IP that is growing in size and presence. Fact: Homecoming is (and understandably needs to) accepting donations ($$) to maintain this enterprise. Fact: Homecoming is an LLC and it is trying to become a non-profit, but that is very limited shielding for the Homecoming team. It's hard to claim LLC status around a quasi legal venture to begin with They way I see it, the risk here is that as this grows one or both of 2 things can happen 1.) WB/Disney sue for TM or Copyright infringement, specifically because they are worried that this effort is taking paying customers away from their own MMORPG's. I can see any other reason why they would care about involving themselves here. To be fair, if that's the case, there will be little we can do about it. Similar to the Marvel case, they can just go in and create rip-off's and then send a C&D... 2.) More likely, NCSoft will either feel threatened about their IP, and send a C&D. If either of those 2 groups send a C&D, it's going to likely be game over pretty quick. This team just won't have the funds to fight it. The fact that $$ is changing hands and there is ZERO ownership of the source code, means Homecoming won't have any legal grounds. If that happens, then Big Corps go after the next few more public private servers, and the whole effort will go underground. For me - that'll be too underground to even think about playing... It's a reality - one we have no control over. That's why it seems silly to me to worry about reporting IP violations...It's not going to change the outcome one way or another. I love this game, and I wish Homecoming and this community they best in this. As for me, I must Go. Hunt. Kill Skuls.

This! I don't want to play a SSVMRPG - Small Single Player Virtual Machine RPG...It loses all interest for me. The source code might never go away...but if this effort is forced to shut down, it'll just mean that any other large scale effort will back off, and that's all there will be left - SSVMRPG.

Hammerspace Ah...I just figured that Paragon City started dumping all of it's garbage in the caves and that's why the CoT were so cranky... Gotta run before someone drops an anvil on my head...

I remember the first time seeing a Gravity Controller throw a dumpster inside a mission map - mind was blown - where the hell did that dumpster come from inside a cave in the hollows?

Politics was my first thought as well. A great many people in politics use inflammatory speech to generate change. But I am really curious if there was another example out there...

Again, I guess it depends on what your goal is. I thought, rightfully so, that is was helping to reduce the amount of fear and uncertainty in the community. Getting people enraged probably won't accomplish that, real world or not. Facts and Confidence Boosting are the best tools. And this isn't the real world - this is a gaming community. However, I am truly and genuinely interested in the Professional Debating experience...How does one do that? It sounds fascinating. If you don't mind posting here or in a short PM how that works, I really would be interested in hearing more. Genuinely curious - not trying to debate about, just sounded fascinating...

Because the way to remove FUD is to engage in meaningful discussions. People should post their concerns, and the community would ideally gently address the concern and all parties move on - the original poster, the responder, and the much larger part of the community that reads the post, share the same concerns and see a community working together. No one has said in this discussion that they advocate having the GM's police this process. It was suggested by a few people, that if someone has concerns, they should go to the GM for an official answer. I'm truly confused why anyone thinks that's a bad idea? You and I don't have an official policy, nor do we have the ability to create one. Seems the like GM's are a good starting place. So no Armchair Sheriff's or Armchair GM's, but people with questions being told to shut up and not say anything. If you tell me NOT to talk to someone about something, that will only EVER increase my FUD. So where's the harm in talking to a GM? As for personal attacks - When you say - stop being or acting like something they are not trying to do - that's a personal attack. It may be an attack with passion, but it's still directed to someone's personal being. And as you say the words are 'inflammatory', I guess I wonder why anyone would think it is anything but a personal attack, since the purpose is to just get a rise out of someone. I guess I subscribe to the newsletter where I do want people to play nice - game is a lot more fun when it's nice, isn't it? I don't think I've seen really "bad" actors on this thread trying to get away with stuff. Passion is awesome, don't lose it. But determine what your passion is - is it smacking people down on threads? I hope not. Is it swaying minds? If so, unless it's brainwashing, I've almost never heard of people's minds being swayed by attacks, inflammatory, or harsh words. I think I'm up to a dime's worth now.

Show me a legal precendent where making a character in a game running on a community server like this has been litigated. I am well aware that copyright and trademark are different animals. Just being scared of a possible lawsuit is just FUD. The outlook is purely based in a fear of the unknown IMO. In many countries, you can sue anyone for anything and it is validated in the courts. So, where is there a precedent for this situation? I would love to find one, really, as it would give me more valid data. Everything else is anecdotal, IMO. I totaly agree the discussion is valid and that many people want definitive answers no one can actualy give them - thus the issure, fear of the unknown and the conflating of vague ideas into a theory that we must all 'hide under the radar'. I also think that attacking the words people post is not the same as attacking the person, even though plenty of people think it's the same thing and need to learn the difference, IMO. Sharing an idea on the Internet involves encountering people that disagree, sometimes passionately. Ripping into a bad idea is not the same thing as ripping into a person. :) I don't have a legal precedent where making an IP rip-off on ripped-off source code on a community server accepting donations is in play. I've said before, there are a lot of entities who don't need legal standing that can still effectively shut this down just due to the costs of fighting a legal battle would incur. Given that we are NOT on any legal footing here - not sure why we think people's fears are unfounded? Realistic? Probably not. But still founded on real issues... And new precedent appears in the courts weekly, if not daily - so saying it hasn't happened before is not an argument for saying it won't happen. Again - is it likely to happen? Probably not. Not a legal precedent, but the kind I am actually worried about happened to the Star Trek fan community who were making awesome fan productions. Until one community pushed too far (they didn't do anything that other groups hadn't done - just went too far in soliciting funds). Then all communities paid a price. If you can't see any similarities, then I don't have much else for you. As for attacking players vs words - Distinction without much difference in the forums - If we feel the need to attack at all it's going to feel personal. It's in the mindset. Can we discuss the words? Can we discuss player actions? It seems like people express a different view, and they are told in bold type to stop being an "Armchair GM-CEO-Rules-Lawyer". That's not a discussion of words, that's an attack on another player. Again - I'm not feeling the need to report anyone. It's not my play style to directly copy another person's IP, but I'm not going to try and stop anyone unless I become more certain that doing so puts the entire community at risk. I currently don't have enough information to feel definitive one way or another.

I don't understand - what does /JRanger mean?

This. Well stated!

Then if your reasoning was valid, you've been advocating for people to report players who by your own logic should not be penalized in the first place, just like you weren't getting for that avatar. Hmm. Sounds like wasting GMs time to me still. However, you're actually wrong. A violation still occurs regardless of who created the depiction and regardless of whether the use was commercial. Since you opted to keep the avatar and tried to rationalize it, you've admitted that you have no commitment to practice what you preach. And again... you want a public stance, then ask for it. Don't be a dick about it - and wasting GMs time with whining, persecution of players who aren't violating Homecoming's current policy and advocating for other players to engage in such persecution definitely fall under that umbrella. Actually there is a fair use doctrine for copyright, and it does matter if the use is commercial or not. Can't see how a forum avatar violates fair use, so it's fine under the law. As for practicing what you preach - I very often drive 5 miles over the speed limit, but I vehemently think driving more than 15-20 miles is going too far. Am I a hypocrite? No! (Well, I am - but not because of this). My fear is safety and it's pretty clear that driving 15-20 miles over the limit is ridiculously more unsafe than driving 5 miles. Both are technically illegal, but one is worse than the other. As mentioned before, no one wants to persecute those who are copying other people's IP. They are just worried someone else's behavior will impact everyone's ability to play here. It would be nice if Homecoming spoke out on this, and flagging it for the GM's is a way of asking for a public stance. This is complete and total dribble. 1 - This is not a retail launch, the Volonteers are not here to deal with your FUD, it is not on the list of things these people have asked us to report. PERIOD. 2 - We made Newsweek. This is server cluster is not hiding form ANYONE. 3 - FUD. Fear Uncertainty and Doubt. Full FUD. You are looking for the sky to fall without any actual valid evidence, laws, nothing. Ths only corporate entities that care about this already know about ti. They will or will not do what thier lawyers tell them to do and it will not revolve around player made character content, it is not a copyright violation, becaus no one is claiming copyright. Play how you like, until the Homcoming Staff say therwise and keep you Armchair GM-CEO-Rules-Lawyering to yourself. Poster here with out a GM tag DO NOT speak for the staff or the server cluster! 1.) Anyone who volunteered on this project and doesn't think the entire community has some fear, uncertainty and doubt is completely deluded. Of course the volunteers are here to deal with FUD. I'm sure they don't want to, but this whole project is such a grey area that there is no way around it and I'm sure all the volunteers are completely aware 3.) "Actual valid evidence, laws, nothing"? There is lots of evidence and laws...Sure Disney, WB, NCSoft all know about this. It may or may not be a copyright violation (you don't have to "claim" copyright for it to be a violation, copyright and trademark are 2 different things). It may or may not matter (I personally think NCSoft is the player to watch out for, not DC or Marvel). But caution isn't a bad thing. It should be discussed, not shamed (that's actually how you help with FUD - freedom to share ideas without being personally attacked. Personally attacking only increases FUD). Some people here seem very worried about the GM's time - GM's are big boys and girls - if they are getting overwhelmed with silliness, they know how to communicate it. My final 6 cents - this game was ALL about playing original heroes, not copying other people's IP. That is what made this game great - the original heroes, designs and thoughts that people came up with. I personally am not going to call out any players for their toons name or appearance, but I understand the concerns and think people should be free to ask here (like the OP did) and have a discussion.

I was Cap'n Black - BS/SR Scrapper for most of my time on Guardian. Lot of role-playing. Wish I remembered more...

Sure they can, if a significant amount of people play that way, that portion of the population deserves recognition. I have just as much right to be attached to the name of a character who is only level 6, but I have spent over 100 hours roleplaying, as you do a 50+ fully IO'd character you played for 10 hours and then decided to shelf for some other project build. Note, I do not say I have MORE right to the name. I said I have just as much right to be attached to the name, and I should not be forced to powerlevel the character to 50 to get the name locked in, any more than you should be forced to spend 100 hours playing a character to get the name locked in. This is why my suggestion was to add a second check. Is the character x level? If yes, pass. If no, has the character spent y hours logged in? If yes, pass. If no, the name is released. It benefits a subset of the community, offering them the same protection without forcing them to change their play style to get said protection. I like this suggestion - time spent with a character probably better represents the player's investment than the levels it has. Provided it's reasonably doable, I'd be a fan of this...

Actually no. From the normal player's perspective, what you should be doing is campaigning for the change you want through the forums or Discord, not by wasting GMs' time with your armchair GMing. Leave them to take care of players who have actual problems . I don't think anyone's campaigning specifically to restrict character creation, costumes or names. I think there is a worry among some part of the server pop that people who are copying other big corporations IP might cause havoc with Homecoming. I agree, it's not probable that doing so poses any risks. But not probable doesn't mean impossible - just ask the awesome and vibrant Star Trek fan content community what's possible when they got too much of Paramount's attention. It's not the same issue of course, but not entirely dissimilar either. Star Trek Axanar wasn't doing anything completely out of left field - they were taking donations to make content. So was Star Trek Phase II, Star Trek Renegades, Star Trek of Gods and Men. But Axanar took it too far, and because of that 90% of the awesome content that was being made cannot be continued. Homecoming is taking donations, so for anyone to say that no money is changing hands is deluding themselves. Is it going too far? Probably not. Could a case be made? Of course. That Marvel suit that everyone references was settled out of court, which means that both sides made concessions. It wasn't like NCSoft walked away without cost. And again, just because a lawsuit from a big corporation is without merits, doesn't mean that is isn't without costs, costs that could shut us down. All that said, I still don't think it's a big issue, but personally I'd err on the side of caution. As for sending something to the GM's - that actually is a good idea, because it'll draw this issue to a close one way or another...Either it is an issue and it get's addressed, or it isn't an issue and the GM's will see the requests and then post a policy one way or the other. I agree it seems like Homecoming isn't concerned or it would be in their code of conduct. My 4 cents

I don't understand this kind of response 1.) The "if it isn't my way, it's the highway" approach doesn't build consensus, change minds or persuade people...I assume you would prefer a change in the policy? If so, make a reasoned case. 2.) The assumption you make is that if you leave, we suffer. This isn't a for-profit enterprise. If you and your Supergroup leave, you aren't hurting anyone's bottom line. You aren't a true customer here. These people are doing this for the fun and passion of this, not to make any one specific person happy. If anything, a big exodus lowers the costs here, makes it more affordable to play. 3.) Finally, I hear you about wanting to spend more time playing. But if you can't be bothered to play your alts, then I'm confused about why you would miss them? If have time to play your alts, then no worries. No one's asking you to log in for just 3 seconds. You can log in, run a mission, do whatever, and then log out and switch... Personally, I'm fine with the policy. Seems reasoned and fair (which is never ideal for everyone). Thanks again for making this game possible...

Legal standing shouldn't be the question here. You don't need legal standing to send a cease and desist letter. Many groups have walked away from copyright battles that they would have won, but the legal costs were so high to victory that they just gave up. I agree with those saying "don't poke the bear". Increasing the legal jeopardy of those working this project just increases the likelihood that this all disappears...Not saying it will or won't happen, but why take the risk?