WindDemon21

100% yes, thoguh cremate is nicer than incinerate for that knockdown. I'd say they still should, either on top, or instead, give incinerate knockdown as well. But yes, i will never play a non-tank fire melee again until they get combustion. The aoe is just TERRIBLE.

We can certainly argue the results on aoe though. It's still completely stupid that they didn't change breath of fire for combustion. The set, which is supposed to be THE damage set, is actually one of the worst for aoe damage which completely goes against how fire should be. They really should swap combustion for breath of fire, it's fairly outrageous that it's not there on non-tanks tbh. At the very least, in additional to lowering the cast time on BoF, if it HAD to stay there for some reason, it'd at least make sense as a Taoe, that explodes around the target with a 10ft minimum radius. But still, combustion should be there in the set. So dumb...

I mean, i could live with the shields not being boostable. However, they 100% should change frostwork into a pbaoe buff with some regen added to it. One, it's just super annoying and most of the time most people have their hp buffed or capped with bonuses/accolades/dull pain etc. So the additional hp is often like nothing. Plus cold doesn't have much in the way of self-survival. This would help to keep the cold user alive as well.

It's been mentioned since the dawn of time, and still somehow keeps getting overlooked, but PLEASE fix veats to let us color their powers. Obviously this is biggest for fortunatas and their psy powers, but come on, it's been long enough. Edit: Throwing this in here cause it's still needed as well, but to allow us to color the weapon powers as well. This means the sparks of any weapon that come when you attack, the glowing aura that chases the target when powers like cleave, crowd control, and golden dragonfly are used, and pretty much every arrow power like acid arrow, disruption arrow, BLAZING ARROW, glue arrow, EMP ARROW, etc.

The -defense on fire melee was 100% specifically to nerf fire farming. The addition to melee for us was just a bonus no matter what they say. Fire melee ST was always fine enough, but was able to use the shortening of GFS (which they really need to do to GiS too), and the KD to cremate was kinda needed with the set having no mitigation. But the main thing they needed to do was change breath of fire to combustion. Still one of the dumbest things they ever did was revamp the set but didn't change that. 100% the reason i've done 3 fire melee scrappers and can't finish them cause the aoe is atrocious, which is absolutely dumb considering fire is supposed to be THE damage set. Utterly terrible...

It's not a knock, it's a repel. Which is utterly terrible IMO. It's the main reason I'll never do fire blast on a sentinel. Too damn annoying and that power is too key to the ST damage and proccing too. Edit: Yes it would be 100000% better as a knockdown or even a knockback, rather than repel. God i hate repel in attacks meant for damage...

No it's not a bug, it's a known issue with the way the coding is for resist powers and damage. They tried to fix this at *some* point in the past and IIRC it caused completely bogus issues.

They also need to make powerboost work with regen and recovery powers. It SHOULD work with resist powers, but i know that is a hard "not possible" with current spaghetti code stupidly. On that note, it *could* be possible to work around that by instead of boosting the value itself, if it would somehow simply APPLY a second buff based on the value of the initial buff on top of it. I could still see this being a coding, or buggy nightmare, but at least it's an avenue to look into to get it to work with resist powers too. But definitely should be fixed to work for regen/recovery powers.

Can we like PLEEASSSSEEEE let us color the veat powers, Especially on fortunata psy powers. Mine NEEDS to have white for his theme, the purple just doesn't work, seriously why has this not been fixed yet?

I'm not saying it's a bad attack at all i think you misconstrued that. What I am saying, is that especially in /melee, it's the only attack that has any mitigation. I was explaining adding the cast time to the equation for relating to other sets that also provide mitigation. So for that being the only mitigation, figure about half recharge on these attacks for slotting/bonuses example, against each sets best mitigation (which obviously most sets have more than one, where savage melee, this is it's only one: Savage Melee: Vicious slash: 60s/6.17s x .67 chance = 6.52 kd's per minute Axe: Swoop: 60/7.23 x .7 chance = 5.81 kd's per minute Gash = 4.78KDPM Chop = 5.77KDPM = Total between these 3 16.36KDPM (obv true amount is better as for fluid chain you'll fit in cleave/beheader which also have chances) Bs: Disembowel = 6.62KDPM Headsplitter = 3.86 + 6.62 = 10.48KDPM (also not accounting for the massive defense boost of parry to help for mitigation as well) Claws: Focus: 13.73KDPM Shockwave: 8.51KDPM Even just using focus it's vastly superior, but can use shockwave in a single target too given the lower end costs, but it's not needed to blow savage out of the water. Shockwave is also one of the best aoe mitigations too which can't be discounted. Dual Blades: Arguably the weirdest to counter, mostly because vengeful slice has a HORRIBLY long animation time, which NEEDS reduced to about 1.43s which would mean instead of the 4 hits, it would just be the last two, which would be terribly easy to fix the animation to do just that (not coding wise not sure on that, just mean how it would look) 1k cuts: 5.56KDPM Current Vengeful Slice: 9.33KDPM Fixed Vengeful Slice: 11.05KDPM Still superior (vastly if they'd fix vengeful slice which they really should) But even current vengeful slice is still much more superior, it's just hard to count with this set cause it's such a horrible attack you won't use it. 1k cuts, can be used against a single target if you need the mitigation, but often won't, but then if you don't, it's not needed anyway. But as a set, it's a big wide cone that offers MUCH more mitigation than simply vicious slash alone. Dark Melee: Has no knockdown to make this an easy comparison. It does have the -to hit which is easy to stack 22.52% on a single target using just the damaging attacks alone, 33.77 if you use touch of fear as well. Plus the self heal offers extra "mitigation" via healing in way too. Plus once you're at 50, midnight grasp gets an extra really big hold proc from gravitational anchor (which stacks very often with the winter hold proc too to hold bosses, or pretty much guarantee anything under a boss will be held by it). All this together, against a single target the set pulls vastly far ahead of savage melee against a single target. Elec Melee: Another hard set to compare given an alternative mechanic. About the only set that savage pulls ahead of it against a single target unless you manage to drain that target. However, the set as a whole provides SOOOO much more mitigation than savage melee against a mob it's laughable. If needed against a single target, you could still rely on thunderstrike for 3.9 KDPM against a single target. And 3.7KDPM from Lightning Clap if your end can handle it. The set also can slot the power transfer heal procs in the attacks, and the call of the sandman 15% heal proc into Havoc Punch or Jacob's ladder for even more "healing" which gives the set better survival chances as well. Energy Melee: While it has no knockdowns, it has so much stun that a single target will be pretty much perma stunned, making it one of the best single target mitigation sets, aoe-wise, it does offer some aoe stun, but it's not a ton, but is more than savage melee offers. Fire Melee: Cremate: 10.91KDPM The set also offers just plain much more damage to a single target as well. However, TERRIBLY stupidly, I'd still prefer savage on the aoe aspect just because fire melee is really bad on aoe. FSC just doesn't cut it. It amazes and INFURIATES me, that they didn't swap breath of fire for combustion, for another aoe attack that should make fire melee stand out better, cause FSC alone is just horrid, and why i've done 3 fire melee scrappers now that all get shelved because the aoe is so terrible. They really do still need to fix that and swap BoF for combustion. But mitigation wise and damage wise, fire melee beats savage out tenfold. Ice Melee: Another somewhat hard tone to compare directly, but obviously it has much more mitigation than savage melee does between perma ice patch, freezing touch, and and -recharge. Another set that vastly needs a couple powers fixed though to fix it's terrible single target damage. (FF should be the .83s cast one punch like charged brawl, and GiS should be swapped back to the Ice Slash 1.83s cast time that it was before, the damage values of each attack are still on the lower end so it wouldn't be winning any contests, but it would help make it not so terribly horrid on the ST front)\ Katana: Soaring Dragon: 7.72KDPM Golden Dragonfly: 4.6KDPM + 7.72 = 12.32KDPM, plus obviously the massive defense boost of divine avalanche if you get that, but not needed in this comparison. Kinetic Melee: Quick Strike: 6.44 Focused Burst: 5 + 6.44 = 11.44 KDPM, the set also offers -damage, and a good bit of single target stun for more mitigation. It also offers a lot more aoe mitigation on a mob as well. Martial Arts: Crane Kick: 5.4 KDPM As a direct comparison it's a bit less, though this, soaring dragon, swoop, disembowel etc, you have to also factor in the longer mitigation of knockup/knockback if you don't put a KB-KD in them as well. MA also has several stuns against a single target for mitigation, aoe knockdown with dragon's tail (which still needs moved up to at least tier 6 IMO), slottable grav anchor hold proc in CaK, and for tank/brutes (which REALLY needs added to scrap/stalkers too!) they get a defense bonus to storm kick as well. Psionic Melee: Telekinetic Blow: 6.03KDPM So close on that alone, but the set also does -recharge, A mag 3 hold in greater psy blade, and stackable boggle. Aoe-wise, also has a really hefty aoe knockup attack for mitigation. (also needs its lockout removed) Rad Melee: Radioactive Smash: 3.96KDPM. So less on pure knockdown mitigation, but the set also has a strong self heal when used right, and some single target stuns. It has some stun in the aoe, but it's fairly poor so wouldn't count that much. Stone Melee: Stone Mallet: 5.35 Heavy Mallet: 5.9KDPM + 5.35 = 11.25KDPM Much more. The set also has some stun/hold to a single target (more if you proc Seismic Smash), but the set also VASTLY outpaces savage melee in mitigation between tremor and fault, though obviously savage wins out in aoe damage, stone beats it in single target as well. (esp if using procs) Spines: Another set that's hard to compare directly. Obviously doing well at aoe damage, the single target really needs to have Impale fixed to the 1.43s cast time that dominators have. Mitigation wise, it does have some -recharge, and then main direct mitigation via: Ripper: 4.69KDPM Where it's less to a single target, it also hits a decent cone's worth of that knockdown so overall is much more mitigation. Staff: Serpent's Reach: 7.66KDPM Sky Splitter: 10.81KDPM + 7.66 = 18.47KDPM Vastly superior on straight ST knockdown mitigation, but the set also has a defense bonus skill, and the massive benefits of the sky splitter buffs with main focus on the 83% recovery (much better than savage's end reduction on average even with the lockout being removed, comparable perhaps if you had a perma 5 stacks of blood which currently is only current unfixed hemorrhage version of savage melee, not assault) and 125%regen, or the 9.98%-13% global resistance it offers as well. The set also offers lots of aoe, but aoe knockdown as well. Street Justice: Heavy Blow: 5.04 Crushing Uppercut: 4.09KDPM + 5.04 = 9.13KDPM This set also offers aoe knockdown for more mitigation, but it's a somewhat tough comparison as a whole for how terrible the radius is on spinning strike. Another set where at least this one power REALLY needs fixed, if nothing else to have a wider radius, but the power doesn't even make sense as a taoe attack. Even the animation is spinning around your own body, and the power should most definitely be a Pbaoe like dragon's tail, not a Taoe like touch of fear. (both powers regardless really need even that one more foot like thunderstrike has, Its crazy noticeable how much more hindered they are at a 6ft radius versus 7, but for a melee set, they really should be 10ft for a melee taoe radius.) Titan Weapons: Follow Through: 9.84KDPM Vastly better, though it also has the odd mechanic of not being able to use out of momentum, even with that though, the KDPM would still be much higher for how often you have to just use crushing blow before it. The set also has titan sweep which is usable against a single target for knockdown, and defensive sweep for a defense boost power. Overall the set also has MUCH more aoe knockdown for vastly better mitigation as well. War Mace: Jawbreaker: 6.59 which is about even, but the knockup provides longer mitigation than a knockdown so it's better than that. The set also has clobber to stun a target, though it's not really perma-able to much sadly, but it does help starting out on non-bosses. The set as a whole again also has much more mitigation between shatter and crowd control, much better single target damage, and still really good aoe damage as well. As you can see, almost no set has less mitigation than savage melee does. Most have better single target damage at the very least if procs are thrown into the mix given savage's shorter cast and recharge times. The only place savage beats about half of the sets is aoe damage thanks mostly to savage leap, but as mentioned at the vast cost of mitigation, though it's also the most resisted damage type as well. Which is why those blood stacks are SO important to not have the lockout. They're needed to help balance the set as a bonus niche. Otherwise the set is about average to a little better on aoe (which this gets cut WAY down in the current form, as the lockout means you may not want to use rending flurry which will greatly lower your aoe damage), on the lower end of single target damage, and almost no mitigation by comparison. This set NEEDS the lockout removed.

/notthatmuchpowercreep Different benefit versus other sets, not OP. We're also talking the difference between what can be done now, and what it would be without a lockout (which again, taking the average buff, not going to be at a full 5 stacks constantly)

We're aware of that, where that also limits the initial burst damage on the set too in a big way for the alpha strike. Those other things mentioned, just a -speed debuff means extremely little outside of pvp, especially with doms. The -defense in the cone is one of the only other real benefits as far as buff/debuff, and mainly on the dom version, melee version cone is there but it's, not that great. (would definitely make sense for that cone to get the 120 degree angle that shadow maul got). Fyi, shred is already on a 2.17s cast time, which already negates the small bonus granted by the blood stacks. and also in fuller builds becomes essentially null compared to that longer cast time. Vicious slash as well, you aren't accounting for the 1.67 cast time. Which isn't bad, just stating that its 10.67s base cycle, not 9 seconds (really 10.802 arcanatime), Where that cast time factors in to minimizing the benefit on the attacks themselves of that small recharge boost especially on fuller builds.

Right, I didn't say the stacks did nothing, quite the opposite which is why the annoyance of the lockouts. As those stacks are the main benefit of the set since it hardly has any mitigation and other effects. Nothing would need to be given up, as it's already traded off for that lack of mitigation/other buffs/debuffs that other sets get. The blood stacks ARE the tradeoff for not having those, why it's extra dumb to completely lock out (for a very long time in battle too) of those stacks which the set is balanced around. When most people are actively trying to avoid using the finishers, it's really a bad set design, which is mostly completely due to the lockouts. And you misunderstood, when i mentioned removing the finishers as a suggestion, meaning that you'd lose the extra damage boosts on those finishers at the tradeoff within the set of being able to consistently have more blood stack buffs. (This would also mean no extra damage with less than max stats too, as a suggested tradeoff for losing the lockouts, though this isn't necessary, removing the lockouts would be all that's needed)

Right, my fault for assuming you knew more about this game and it's powers than simply just your experience on savage melee when you broadly stated asking what else other sets bring to the table as if they didn't also bring anything worthwhile. Nobody is, as you seem to once again miss that even without the lockouts you're not going to be running constantly with the max stacks. And we are paying for it via the lack of mitigation/defensive buffs/debuffs that other sets have. So when we're locked out, we're paying for it with essentially no bonus at that point too then.

If you really think that when i mentioned most of those, that those are the ONLY benefits to those melee sets, you clearly aren't understanding this game. There is a LOT more to staff for example, that was just one power picked out as an example, and even that is more than that, Same with ice patch, etc. Staff, and titan weapons get the defense buff attack as well. on brutes/tanks at least, though should be scrap/stalkers too, MA gets a defense bonus. Ice melee also has freezing tough and frozen aura. FU/BF, don't make a set, no, but it is a huge part of them. Both have really good mitigation in focus/shockwave/1c cuts/sweep combo. Really trying to nitpick because only one power was mentioned as if that's all those sets have. Really pathetic argument, and in no way detracts from what I/We have been saying about the issues with the lockouts. Again, just because you don't mind, doesn't mean most of us don't, or that it would OP/Detract from the set to have those lockouts removed. There is a MAJOR difference between too difficult, and just plain annoying/unnecessary. It's laughable where your frame of thought is on this thinking we don't understand how it works..

Again, you're NOT going to be constantly at those max stats, and easily. Pretty much any of the sky splitter buffs. Big defense bonus from most weapon sets. Constant to hit/damage buff on claws/dual blades/super strength. Lots of mitigation on sets with more knockdowns. Lots of sets that also translate to more rech via force feedback slotting, vicious slash is really not great at proccing that. Ice Patch Sets with a hold/stun to nullify/detoggle certain enemies. There are lots, most sets have something they bring to the table. Savage's main thing is the buff from those stacks, so again, really dumb having that lockout there.

And again, that woudln't permanently be there as you're using up those stacks. *smacks forehead* And too good, no, as mentioned by the lack of mitigation etc that the set lacks compared to others as well. Those stacks ARE the draw to the set, so it's terribly dumb to be locked out of them.

It is with the blood buffs being the main effect of the set and why it has almost no mitigation/debuffs/buffs etc on its own. Other sets get other benefits, It is fairly unique in that it is about the only benefit of a secondary effect in the set beyond the blood stacks there other sets have multiple other properties that they bring, which is why the stacks are so important and need to not have a lockout. Bottom line, you may not have an issue with it, but many of us do, and the lockout doesn't need to be there. The set would not be OP with the lockouts removed, and it certainly would not negatively effect anyone playing the set by having the lockouts removed.

Actually as i was explaining, in trying to leverage/not constantly be locked out of the stacks, it actually SEVERELY limits your play, which is the point all of us are annoyed by. For most people, this isn't the case, especially with lockouts, but more to the point, even without them, the average stacks you're going to have unless completely specifically not using finishers, which is mostly going to only be savage melee in the single target right now cause of how bad hemorrhage is, is well below the max, and closer to that 2.5ish that i mentioned earlier. On melee, a 2/3s chance knockdown on pretty much your slowest attack is not that much mitigation. The slows, are only to movement speed, so when especially you're in melee anyway to attack, that means it provides zero mitigation. Assault on doms is better with call hawk having knockdown, but that doesn't mean that the lockouts aren't actually worse on doms since it's also a finisher that uses up the stacks.

So you're basically agreeing with me and many others, just in a different way. Point being how annoying it is breaking the flow of attacking to have to micromanage those stacks because they lockout and you don't want to lose/lock out of them. It may not bother you as much, but it clearly does to many others, and always just makes any savage character just a plain hassle to deal with, hence why the stacks should just get consumed, not lockout. While nice to have too, that 10%ish average rech as mentioned isn't much to an even medium finished build. The end reduction is more significant, and plays a much bigger role to why the lockout is just so annoying. Especially meaning you aren't/can't use your main aoe in battle because of that that works out often times. It's much less an issue on single targets but does still occur, but the aoe is always the more significant annoyance trying to use it but dealing with the lockouts as you usually use other attakcs in between meaning it'll often be at the full stack, but then you can't use it cause you don't want to get locked out of the blood stacks. It's quite absurd dealing with constantly, when the lockouts shouldn't really exist there at all to begin with. Mind you, those bonus buffs, are part of savage melee/assault. The set itself has almost no other mitigation like other sets have, not any real big heavy hitting ST attacks, and minimal debuffs as well. Those blood stacks ARE the tradeoff within the set. So to be constantly locked out of them for 15 seconds at a time is just absurd. And we're not even getting into how absurdly underpowered hemmorhage is on S-melee evne at a full 5 stacks..

TBH, while i like the benefit of the buffs, not ONCE have i ever though of the blood stacks as "too good" to have that lockout. Especially when, in any normal play, they get consumed, you are never permanently at the max buffs. Your average stacks across a battle are maybe about 2.5 on average to keep in mind, and that's if there was no blood lockout at all. I'd much rather have there just be no finishers, and the buffs just be there for you that build up in more of a rage-type fashion or something.

Strategy is trying to use those stacks to their benefit, but nothing is worse, especially on savages, getting locked out or REALLY interrupting/janky'ing your attack chaining because you don't want to deal with the lockout. Also really makes trying to use the extra radius awkward, but especially if you're trying to use those buffs too but don't want to just, well, DEAL with how terrible trying to stay around the lockout is...

Same, though i find the issue FAR more on those powers you can't use without it, ie follow through and whirling smash. They're not so crazy they would need damage reduced, just give them the longer cast time outside of momentum. The benefits of having momentum are there though so i wouldn't say I'd want those powers nerfed to remove momentum, but like, defensive sweep/crushing blow could have shorter cast times to make them more start-friendly at least too. But especially these dumb lockouts on savage and psy melee, just don't need to be there. Just use up the buff only.

Can we PLEASE get rid of these dumb lockouts, especially on all savage melee/assaults, but also definitely psy melee too. Use up the blood stacks/insight sure, but not lockout. It's a terrible and annoying mechanic. Especially when you're counting on that end reduction and rech from the blood stacks on your build too.

I mean i agree 100000%, just saying devs thought about it at one point and then decided against that. Hopefully they have learned the error of their ways since then and will make it an auto at least when the big MM fix comes.