WindDemon21

Ice Patch is great. What they need to do is just fix frozen fists especially and greater ice sword. Frozen fists should just be the .83s casting animation like charged brawl is, and GiS should be returned to it's Ice slash 1.83s cast time and the set would be perfect. But those two powers really screw it over and is really more of what you're missing on where ice melee needs help. But Ice patch is terrific. Side note: they do STILL need to allow it, and ice slick, to accept slow and Kb enhancements and sets though grrr. You could throw a couple procs on it then at least.

Mainly it's horrid secondary effects helping with actual survival and reliance on time wall (again reliance, not "makes better" in the case of the 2 melees it's extra bad) For one, the 2 melee skills have basically zero secondary effects. The tier2 has just a small dot which is likely calculated on the power's damage anyway outside of the tiny extra if you use time wall. This would be a great place for a knockdown or at the very least a -recharge on it. It has end drain for some odd reason too, which is extra odd since you can't even enhance it to throw in a heal proc. And future pain is even worse. For being the big attack with a long recharge, without time wall it has basically zero effect, for such a low chance, only mag 3, and FEAR effect that means nothing when you're constantly attacking the target anyway. Even with time wall, it's still just a mag 3 short duration fear that usually amounts to nothing useful. On top of those, the worst offender is Time Stop. It's the WORST single target hold on a blaster secondary (or primary whos main focus is hold not damage) This is entirely baffling because it doens't even do damage like the others, so you can't even slot damage procs like apocalpyse, and even worse, can only slot the lockdown proc to overmag on a boss, where the devastation proc has better chances than it, also which is really dumb. On top of that, it has the LONGEST animation of them at 2.17s, others are 1.03, 1.67, and 2.07, and for not doing any damage, somehow still only has the same duration. Since it doesn't do damage which is fine, it should have the fastest, or close to it case, the single hand flip like gust has or something at 1.17s or honestly one that's 1s, and hands down, since it has no damage, it should have a longer duration than those other holds, at 14.9s instead of 11.92 scalar like the other holds that do damage have. Since it lacks that damage and proc-ablility, it should hands down at least be the best at holding versus the other ones. As some of it's effectiveness hinders on time wall as well, among all the tier 1 immobs needing fixed really too anyway, it shouldn't be NEEDED to have time wall to make time stop more effective, again, especially lacking that damage component that the others have. NEEDING time wall, and time stop in comparison to the others which get that damage ability and faster cast, is not good. It's fine if it doesn't do damage, but it definitely then needs its cast time much faster, and should have a longer duration inherently as well (ie not needing time stop). Time wall is decent among the tier 1s, but the cast is still way too long and low damage, where all should be more standardized like the tier 1 blasts with 1s casts and, for those that do DOT have the dot occur within 4s like Freezing touch/ice arrow do. Time Shift could use a cast time reduction as well, but at least it's one of the better more useful aoe mezzes on blasters since it has that slow/-to hit component for procs.

It's really not, the rest of the set i'm not talking about, it's mainly these 3 powers which are rather severe in their lack of helpful secondary effects and stats on time stop.

Ah right, always think" well it's only in this AT"

Mainly it's horrid secondary effects helping with actual survival. For one, the 2 melee skills have basically zero secondary effects. The tier2 has just a small dot which is likely calculated on the power's damage anyway outside of the tiny extra if you use time wall. This would be a great place for a knockdown or at the very least a -recharge on it. It has end drain for some odd reason too, which is extra odd since you can't even enhance it to throw in a heal proc. And future pain is even worse. For being the big attack with a long recharge, without time wall it has basically zero effect, for such a low chance, only mag 3, and FEAR effect that means nothing when you're constantly attacking the target anyway. Even with time wall, it's still just a mag 3 short duration fear that usually amounts to nothing useful. On top of those, the worst offender is Time Stop. It's the WORST single target hold on a blaster secondary (or primary whos main focus is hold not damage) This is entirely baffling because it doens't even do damage like the others, so you can't even slot damage procs like apocalpyse, and even worse, can only slot the lockdown proc to overmag on a boss, where the devastation proc has better chances than it, also which is really dumb. On top of that, it has the LONGEST animation of them at 2.17s, others are 1.03, 1.67, and 2.07, and for not doing any damage, somehow still only has the same duration. Since it doesn't do damage which is fine, it should have the fastest, or close to it case, the single hand flip like gust has or something at 1.17s or honestly one that's 1s, and hands down, since it has no damage, it should have a longer duration than those other holds, at 14.9s instead of 11.92 scalar like the other holds that do damage have. Since it lacks that damage and proc-ablility, it should hands down at least be the best at holding versus the other ones. As some of it's effectiveness hinders on time wall as well, among all the tier 1 immobs needing fixed really too anyway, it shouldn't be NEEDED to have time wall to make time stop more effective, again, especially lacking that damage component that the others have. NEEDING time wall, and time stop in comparison to the others which get that damage ability and faster cast, is not good. It's fine if it doesn't do damage, but it definitely then needs its cast time much faster, and should have a longer duration inherently as well (ie not needing time stop). Time wall is decent among the tier 1s, but the cast is still way too long and low damage, where all should be more standardized like the tier 1 blasts with 1s casts and, for those that do DOT have the dot occur within 4s like Freezing touch/ice arrow do. Time Shift could use a cast time reduction as well, but at least it's one of the better more useful aoe mezzes on blasters since it has that slow/-to hit component for procs.

Right, which is about 2/3 ie most. You' re also missing the other part of that paragraph, where I mentioned that they either get (or both) resistance, or a big amount of defense to the types that cause drain in the first place which are cappable on those sets to avoid those drains from hitting you in the first place. The only uniquely terrible set regarding either or is regen, which needs it's on big waves of help, but we all know that topic so should be ignored for now lol.

I could post the other sets power stats sure, but forgive me for assuming that some of you would actually know what they are so it wouldn't be necessary to do so. I haven't pushed out any goal posts as you say, the only thing I HAVE done so far, is try to come to a middle ground on the powers based on what I'd like to see, and what you would, but again, of course you choose to ignore that. There are no links provided that I haven't already either gone over or accounted for. Providing links for these powers would just be senseless copy and pasting for anything that wasn't already said in the thread. 5% per target flat rate, yes it is meager given the duration and recharge on the power, if it was perma-able via a long duration buff, then we're talking about something relevant, but at 15s, while i'ts there versus not, it factors VERY little into the power. Not once have I refuted any ACTUAL data that already exists in game via a powers numbers. Please show me exactly where I said something had a specific number value and said that that wasn't the case, because unless there was an extremely misplaced typo I missed, I guarantee you can't. (again, straight number value, not conjecture based on what other people "feel" is fine", as the straight numbers, are what actual data is, and don't just paste data someone provided, cause obviously I'm already well aware of the actual numbers that exist in game) I never said that. I said that MOST get the end drain resistance. The only one with a similar aoe end drain power that doesn't is ice armor, to which I explained that while it doesn't get the resistance, what it does get is defense that can be capped to avoid the drains in the first place, same with bio, or even willpower if looking at quick recovery, or stone armor (which gets both). The ONLY armor set, that doesn't either have end drain resistance, or defense that can be capped to avoid it, is regen, which that's on it's own level of needing help which doesn't quite fit into the thread. So fire armor is not special in that regard. What it does have though, is while having zero defense boosting powers to avoid those drains in the first place, is a far too long recharging end gain power compared to other sets that offer end help. Unnecessarily as well, considering how very not OP it would make the set to fix that, simply place it in line with other sets.

Regarding this thread only so far yes. Which is why i wouldn't push to have it that much more skewed as an attack. That said, the power would still be warranted for a much shorter base recharge with the main focus still on the end return. Annoyingly when I know so many who agree how it seems to be the case with some frequent forumites. And that's not true, or I wouldn't say what I've just said in the sentence above. And again, even at 60s, theyr're still not "constant" use powers. Alternatively, you could also simply ignore the thread and turn off notifications for it.

Again, didn't read properly what I said. I was referencing them with ALL factors into context. Is your brain even running? Seriously, you might need to shut it down and defragment it.

The problem with that line of thinking already is, that you don't think that the power needs a buff at all. (which again, flabbergasted, but lets move on). That said, you're doubling down on being "shocked" that the end result of any changes, would mean that you get more endurance out of them than you currently do in their current forms. Which YES, that is ENTIRELY the point I'm trying to get across. The other being the sheer annoyance of the recharge times making it that much more annoying to have to wait for it to be up at more profitable times, EVEN on a full build with lots of rech/hasten/bonuses. That said, regarding DC at least, it should be more of an "attack" than it currently is at that recharge, even if that DID mean slightly less endurance, but that would still generally mean more endurance than it does currently due to how out of balance that horridly long recharge is.

Kinda worded weird, but if i gathered properly to respond: Yes it certainly can, regarding any heal set procs, those always go into health anyway as they are uniques, so it's not the same comparison. That really only works with auto end powers who can slot multiple of the performance shifter or power transfer procs.

Yes, which is why you compare both the power, and the SET. As I mentioned already those sets also get end drain resistance, simply in other powers which are automatic. Which is where the higher number of resistance is more justified in a power like this. And EA in ice, sort of does via cappable energy defense which means you hardly ever get HIT with the drains in the first place (a quite glaring hole in most resist based armors in general tbh not having higher debuff resists in general for certain things). Dull pain also grants much higher max hp than autos, or consume. Most of the only reference to dull pain in any post i've said, is that in fact, the power is NOT like dull pain, given the values, as it's closer to any auto max hp power instead. As to the recovery again, in addition to usually a few seconds when consume is first used where that recovery doesn't do anyting, IE a recovery tic would occur anyway when you're already at full end after using consume, that is still extremely meager considering similar powers and it's duration, Those other recovery boost, which in all regards are still rather small, but they DO stack, but more importantly are CONSTANTLY on. So yes, that recovery is extremely pathetic to try to justify the power in it's current recharge.

Regarding Dc, as in how it performs compared to other sets, regarding more as an attack as it is in an attack set, but also obviously including it's end gain capabilities as well, it's still out of balance. On consume, it does have equivalents (power sink, energy absorption, power drain, energy drain etc), and again it was, and is meant for, and should be expected, mainly as an end gain ability. The drain resist, other sets with end powers get as well, its only more because it's not in an auto which is fine tbh, also, those other said powers also grant special stuff on top of the end gain, ie defense except power sink, which also should have some extra benefit tbh). The max hp, was an addition to help the SET in regards to largely the nerf to burn, but it as i've pointed out just as easily could have gone into any other power, most notably (and god I wish for this discussion) in temperature protection. Trying to stuff everything into consume is not a justification for it not properly doing it's main purpose and not getting fixed properly when max hp was added to the *set* just because they randomly chose to stuff it in consume. Regarding the recovery for example, just because it HAS recovery, doesn't mean that it equals the benefit of the other powers at 60s recharge. You could say a power *has* anything, but if the value or duration are so low compared to the powers recharge and how many targets it needs, it pretty much doesn't matter that it's even there. In this case, for such a short duration and such a low amount of recovery per target, it's pretty much there already. And in regards to the max hp, you can't just say now "because it's there", without accounting that the power didn't properly in comparison have proper stats already before to help the set out on endurance as it should have. Again, I REALLY wish they would have just put the max hp in temp protection and been done with this part of the conversation trying to say that it being in consume versus any other power, justifies consume remaining on such a terrible recharge. Edit: regarding the max hp as well, having the shorter recharge to make the proper stats for its end gain capabilities, also does nothing to change the max hp aspect generally, as it's already only at auto values, and easily perma-able anyway (just as if it was in an auto), so changing the stats for the endurance, would not change any aspect of the max hp addition, so even with it being in consume, is still a pretty moot point to the discussion.

I'm not, but it's ok if it doesn't bother YOU. Have fun with it, I on the other hand see where it's sub-par and will try to get the powers fixed properly.

And once again, you clearly are not reading everything I've stated properly. They are easily underperforming in comparison to other similar powers, and for the sets themselves. This, if anything, is more a matter of set and power standards, to which yours obviously, are much lower.

Then you clearly are not reading, or comprehending properly. Edit" which for the record, I have given correct data in every thread, if you don't agree on something that I suggested that's another issue, but I have not given any improper stat here for things existing already in the game. Perhaps you're misunderstanding what was said, reread again properly.

I can play exceedingly well, build well, and am easily the go to guy of anyone I know who needs power/slotting/build advice. (and before you say it, no, that doesn't mean "poor noobies that he's helping" I know what i'm talking about, whether you agree or not is another matter) It's that fact that actually makes these things so big, because I more than most get extra annoyed when sets or powers are not performing properly as they should and also in comparison ot other power sets. Trying to personally attack my proficiency in a set or power does nothing to help your argument except to say that you can't think of anything better and are instead resulting to personal attacks instead of discussing the topic at hand.

I've thought many times over the years I'm probably on the spectrum (in the sense of the pathways the brain makes for thought and: incoming:) and definitely have ADD, hence the use of so many brackets and sentence structure that follows my thought process as to not make sure to try to not forget to include anything. Doesn't mean in the slightest I don't know what i'm talking about and provide proper data, context, etc, and personal attacks on the matter does nothing to further the discussion on topic. I can see where that thought comes from truly (Ie ,many brackets, interjected thoughts etc) but the wording/sentence structure is far from being so incoherent that anyone shouldn't be able to easily understand.

The entire gameplay is based off of numbers, math, and generally having sets perform equally if albeit differently depending on the tasks/enemies, it's all based on "rules" that sets and powers follow. This is why over there years there have been so many tweaks, updates, changes etc to bring sets in line with each other. That is a pretty hard and fast rule of the game so no set or power is inherently under or overpowered as to make it so terrible to play, or so strong that there is no point in playing another (of course that's not the case cause altitis/flavor/boredom etc but you know what I mean with that phrase.)

I agree, which is why I mentioned even reducing the piddly damage it does even further (consume) to still allow slotting of those sets, but "basically" having the power do no damage on its own, which for how low it's current damage is anyway, is already pretty much at that point regardless. On the 2nd part, a power recharging with a base 60s isn't a button mash faceroll. Even on most higher end builds, that's still about a 20s interval between uses. (again even at that recharge, or less depending where in the mob the fight is ie if there is only a boss left, between spawns etc). DC at a 3 minute recharge isn't "individuality" it's underpowered plain and simple. DC at 60s even leaving the damage and all other stats alone, would still only be about proper, it woudln't be just another button mash like other sets are, not even close. (even a smaller increase in end cost would be justified as well, it would still have pretty low damage for an aoe, so a 6ish end cost wouldn't be out of the question) If you were regarding consume as the button mash, it's still not at 60s like I just explained, but this was where the suggestion of let's say 90-120s rech comes in, with extending/frontloading the recovery bonus to let's say 60s (non stacking) comes in so it's still a bit different. But as is currently at 3 minute recharge, is REALLY underpowered by comparison/use.

Again, it's separate per power since both consume/dc generally have different roles especially being in an armor set versus a melee set. Armor set, yes, like many others that offer end help, consume is way under-statted in comparison with that 3 minute recharge. There were other suggestions via messing with recovery amount/duration instead of straight 60s rech, but the 60s rech is the quickest way to value the power (even if, and easily so, that recovery is removed to compensate the new recharge). DC, I think you at least heard what I said about it, how being in the primary versus armor set which most melees don't offer such direct help, would be ok with it not granting as MUCH end at once, however the power is still so poorly statted at that 3 minute recharge, that it would be, without being completely stupid, almost impossible to make have less end gained with a shorter recharge and set out more as an attack with end help. Both though, would benefit from having more end up front on the first target. Consume though would proper stats much like EA, power sink etc, would be fine if it was the straight gains. DC though being mixed attack and end focused, as opposed to more JUST endurance as it is now since for how low its damage is with that 3 minute recharge is basically can't even be counted as an attack, would make more sense having the more end on the first target as with an attack focus as well, you wouldn't be saving it only on big mobs just for the endurance, it would be a more sustained end help every mob (thus allowing it to be used as an actual attack as well, even if it's only used once per mob with a 60s recharge versus normal aoe's which are at about 15s)

What?? I'm literally not even reading all this because you can't seem to comprehend ANYTHING I've said so far, you're just trying to pick a fight and are being completely absurd, or are just plain that stupid if you aren't understanding some VERY simple things I've said. Just looking at that first sentence how you seem to think that I don't know how the max hp buff works?? It grants a buff simply by casting the power regardless of enemies, and has just barely over values that auto +max hp powers offer. I didn't misunderstand anything, that appears to be you. So again, no point in reading the rest since you clearly can't seem to comprehend anything I've been saying.

I agree hence the frustration, cause there are countless I encounter who agree but don't seem to come on here, and I play/make so many builds where the powers at that recharge REALLY stand out poorly in comparison to any others I play. And on the other side not to say, especially when looking at other similar powers would fixing that do anything even remotely close to OPing the set either (consume, DC needs other adjustments I mentioned to not OP it), so the backlash trying to fix them just seems, extra weird and frustrating.

Two powers different things. DC, not constant like a true aoe which is usually around 16s for recharge, but not the crapfest 3 minute recharge it is now either. Something more like savage leap, only without the tp and higher damage, and even higher rech of 60 vs 40s is fine, with instead the endurance as a benefit. End gained per use less yes, but would result in more end gained with the shorter recharge and fact that you actually use it more often than waiting the extra time with it's longer recharge to HAVE to maximize every time it's end gain. It would still be a decent end help, and is in the melee set after all, which usually most don't offer any end help, especially with more loaded on the first target even with lower values. Relating to what I said earlier, key would be doing the right values on the first and supplementary targets, which would in any situations be it full mob small mob or single target, would still net more end than you get from it currently because you can use it more often. On the same note that Lum or whoever said, If you can't build with that help (which honeslty at 3 minutes base rech any change would be an improvement on end over time via any of the suggestions me or Vanden said), then something is wrong in the build, because the proposed changes would still be a net better endurance for the power. Or again in the simple fix of lowering the recharge down to 60s. Even with increasing the end cost to about 13 like similar powers, you'd still have some end reduction with IO slotting, and the end gain would be much better, again even with lower end values. And consume, no, like i even said lower the damage it does down to .0001 damage I don't care (more to keep IO slotting), but the damage is so piddly that's not the factor of focus and never was. Consume, always was, and even now with the max hp, since it's at auto values not dull pain values, should still have the main focus on the end gain it provides, which 3 minutes for the base recharge just does not cut it. Again honestly I wish they'd just move that max HP to temp protection to remove that from the discussion, the values are about auto levels anyway, and they don't stack with multiple consume casts, so even if the rech was reduced to 60s and the max hp buff lasted 2 minutes, there is still no cry of OP on it since it's auto values anyway. Edit: another way of saying, what I WANT is for the power to not be absolutely terrible for endurance in low or even mid level/builds, and for it to not be after a full build with slotting, bonuses, and hasten to feel like "ughh it's still taking forever even after all of this" to do what it should.

Yeah I know, I was referring to the endurance for the power, which is, and always has been the main issue. Again, that max hp, since it's at closer to auto max hp values, not dull pain values, could just as easily be in temp protection etc. (which god after all this I really wish they just did that instead so people stop bringing it up as incorrect justification to try to allow consume to be at it's terrible stats that it is.) Not once did I say (or via what i said imply) that I didn't know what the power did or it's stats. I'm well aware of the math here. The point I've BEEN making, is that at that 3 minute base recharge, the power is still terrible in relation to other similar powers or what the set should have even max slotting for endurance modifications. Slotting for end mod, to get that little bit more endurance, on a 3 minute base timer is still REALLY bad mileage out of those slots especially in the scenarios for how wasted it is if you DO have a big enough mob, compared to literally any other end gain type power. It's atrocious. It's still completely baffling me that you're not seeing this. What I WANT, is for the power to simply have proper stats so it's more useful to the set and in comparison to other similar (or even not similar) type powers and doesn't require proper mobs for how long the recharge is already in order to make it behave properly. All of your "justification" does not change that it's stats (simplest view looking at the rech needing reduced), are way out of whack for the power for end gain purposes compared to any other set that offers such. All it's doing, is stating that YOU don't have a problem with it. Which honestly I'm still finding VERY weird that you're not seeing it, it's just meaning that your standards for a set/power are much lower, and it doesn't bother you. This is not it at ALL, which just proves you haven't been reading what I said properly. One, the damage suggestion was to DC to make it more favorable as an aoe that helps with end, rather than mostly only an end power on too long of a recharge. I NEVER mentioned increasing the damage on consume, and would happliy remove the damage if not for allowing more IO set slotting, but say, hell bump the damage down to .0001 damage and I'd still be just as happy if it means fixing the power for endurance gain. For the record, with the simple solution of reducing the recharge to 60s, I'd still be 6 at least 5 slotting the power, so your assumptions about my "goals" mean nothing. And please for the love of god tell me in what crazy universe you think I EVER said that consume should be nuke damage... I don't have to "dream on" cause I'm not dreaming anything crazy like you're trying to imply, I'm simply trying to get the power to have proper stats compared to other sets and within the set itself.