WindDemon21

Right, you missed what I was saying was the amount of more damage that that proc ADDS to the power making it more worth it as a damage ability, on top of the actual damage the power would do like the others as well. Ie, that proc, is both more damaging, and procs more often than non-purple procs, so that in addition to the damage is much more than another smaller proc adds.

The -regen is so low, it doens't make up for the damage, which in addition to the damage the others have, also means two BIG things. One, that it can take the apocalypse proc which is the most damage you can get from a proc and makes a huge difference, and that it can take the devastation proc which has better proc chances than the lockdown proc does which you do so you're not forced to take time wall. High DPA sure, i'm not debating that part, but those others get WAY more for close DPA having reliable knockdown, hold, and disorient. It's not even close how much more useful they are. Edit: when i said doens't make up for the damage, meant the value of damage ON the hold via what i followed up with. not damage as in, "the damage does more than the -regen helps". the -regen is also in an extra weird spot given that the power doesn't take apocalypse and proc worthy enough to use as an attack, and with its extra long cast time, means you're not using actual damage powers instead as well. thankfully it lasts 20s, but even still, its just not enough for the power by any means, at least certainly not where the power shouldn't have a much faster cast time and last longer than the others since it has no damage itself.

I didn't say liar, I rather implied that you didn't understand. Big difference. And your "inferred" response was equivalent to your "you're wrong" which is immaturity backed by lack of data. None of which earning you any points. Any of which point your whole response, and some of what I said too, is all opinion based so it's impossible to be "wrong". At least I supplied reasons and comparisons here. Good job trolling..

I fully admit when I'm wrong and have done so in the past, but it doesn't happen often, like in this case for example. so instead of constantly trolling, why don't you do something productive. Also, again if you "main" it, then you'd clearly see where these small additions would help, and far from push the set anywhere outrageous. Every other secondary ST hold, and big attack, has damage/better cast time on the hold, and an actually useful secondary effect on the main big damage ST attack. Temp is a FAR outlier on this, and fixing the stats on the hold and adding a better secondary effect on Future pain would only help, not OP the set.

And I've done that several times over, you can say "you're wrong" as much as you want but doesn't mean it's true. You honestly couldn't convince me you're not purposefully trolling, because if you had actually played them you'd see how much they're lacking, and there is no way you could actually convince yourself that they don't need these tweaks. Small yes, but with significant help to the powers and set against single targets.

I'd wish so much more to have Sc instead of CP any day. The rech/duration values are just too unreliable. SC at least can offer 10 max end (though generally the base power seems a bit low and would like to see also include some end reduction like CP as well, like even 15%, or maybe 7.5 with 20% end drain resistance also), and can slot the pshifter and power transfer procs. Far more useful in any build.

Also, I "main" most everything. Maybe if you played more sets and combos of those sets, you'd actually gain more insight properly.

I'm not, compare it with most other blaster secondaries. I didn't say all the powers were bad, but these 3 powers in key just need a few small tweaks. Especially Future pain, being the big single target hitter, and having basically zero secondary effect, and time stop, having the worst stats of all the ST holds, on top of not having damage like they do either. Again, tweaks, not complete rework, but these deficiencies are VERY noticeable compared to other sets.

Ice Patch is great. What they need to do is just fix frozen fists especially and greater ice sword. Frozen fists should just be the .83s casting animation like charged brawl is, and GiS should be returned to it's Ice slash 1.83s cast time and the set would be perfect. But those two powers really screw it over and is really more of what you're missing on where ice melee needs help. But Ice patch is terrific. Side note: they do STILL need to allow it, and ice slick, to accept slow and Kb enhancements and sets though grrr. You could throw a couple procs on it then at least.

Mainly it's horrid secondary effects helping with actual survival and reliance on time wall (again reliance, not "makes better" in the case of the 2 melees it's extra bad) For one, the 2 melee skills have basically zero secondary effects. The tier2 has just a small dot which is likely calculated on the power's damage anyway outside of the tiny extra if you use time wall. This would be a great place for a knockdown or at the very least a -recharge on it. It has end drain for some odd reason too, which is extra odd since you can't even enhance it to throw in a heal proc. And future pain is even worse. For being the big attack with a long recharge, without time wall it has basically zero effect, for such a low chance, only mag 3, and FEAR effect that means nothing when you're constantly attacking the target anyway. Even with time wall, it's still just a mag 3 short duration fear that usually amounts to nothing useful. On top of those, the worst offender is Time Stop. It's the WORST single target hold on a blaster secondary (or primary whos main focus is hold not damage) This is entirely baffling because it doens't even do damage like the others, so you can't even slot damage procs like apocalpyse, and even worse, can only slot the lockdown proc to overmag on a boss, where the devastation proc has better chances than it, also which is really dumb. On top of that, it has the LONGEST animation of them at 2.17s, others are 1.03, 1.67, and 2.07, and for not doing any damage, somehow still only has the same duration. Since it doesn't do damage which is fine, it should have the fastest, or close to it case, the single hand flip like gust has or something at 1.17s or honestly one that's 1s, and hands down, since it has no damage, it should have a longer duration than those other holds, at 14.9s instead of 11.92 scalar like the other holds that do damage have. Since it lacks that damage and proc-ablility, it should hands down at least be the best at holding versus the other ones. As some of it's effectiveness hinders on time wall as well, among all the tier 1 immobs needing fixed really too anyway, it shouldn't be NEEDED to have time wall to make time stop more effective, again, especially lacking that damage component that the others have. NEEDING time wall, and time stop in comparison to the others which get that damage ability and faster cast, is not good. It's fine if it doesn't do damage, but it definitely then needs its cast time much faster, and should have a longer duration inherently as well (ie not needing time stop). Time wall is decent among the tier 1s, but the cast is still way too long and low damage, where all should be more standardized like the tier 1 blasts with 1s casts and, for those that do DOT have the dot occur within 4s like Freezing touch/ice arrow do. Time Shift could use a cast time reduction as well, but at least it's one of the better more useful aoe mezzes on blasters since it has that slow/-to hit component for procs.

It's really not, the rest of the set i'm not talking about, it's mainly these 3 powers which are rather severe in their lack of helpful secondary effects and stats on time stop.

Ah right, always think" well it's only in this AT"

Mainly it's horrid secondary effects helping with actual survival. For one, the 2 melee skills have basically zero secondary effects. The tier2 has just a small dot which is likely calculated on the power's damage anyway outside of the tiny extra if you use time wall. This would be a great place for a knockdown or at the very least a -recharge on it. It has end drain for some odd reason too, which is extra odd since you can't even enhance it to throw in a heal proc. And future pain is even worse. For being the big attack with a long recharge, without time wall it has basically zero effect, for such a low chance, only mag 3, and FEAR effect that means nothing when you're constantly attacking the target anyway. Even with time wall, it's still just a mag 3 short duration fear that usually amounts to nothing useful. On top of those, the worst offender is Time Stop. It's the WORST single target hold on a blaster secondary (or primary whos main focus is hold not damage) This is entirely baffling because it doens't even do damage like the others, so you can't even slot damage procs like apocalpyse, and even worse, can only slot the lockdown proc to overmag on a boss, where the devastation proc has better chances than it, also which is really dumb. On top of that, it has the LONGEST animation of them at 2.17s, others are 1.03, 1.67, and 2.07, and for not doing any damage, somehow still only has the same duration. Since it doesn't do damage which is fine, it should have the fastest, or close to it case, the single hand flip like gust has or something at 1.17s or honestly one that's 1s, and hands down, since it has no damage, it should have a longer duration than those other holds, at 14.9s instead of 11.92 scalar like the other holds that do damage have. Since it lacks that damage and proc-ablility, it should hands down at least be the best at holding versus the other ones. As some of it's effectiveness hinders on time wall as well, among all the tier 1 immobs needing fixed really too anyway, it shouldn't be NEEDED to have time wall to make time stop more effective, again, especially lacking that damage component that the others have. NEEDING time wall, and time stop in comparison to the others which get that damage ability and faster cast, is not good. It's fine if it doesn't do damage, but it definitely then needs its cast time much faster, and should have a longer duration inherently as well (ie not needing time stop). Time wall is decent among the tier 1s, but the cast is still way too long and low damage, where all should be more standardized like the tier 1 blasts with 1s casts and, for those that do DOT have the dot occur within 4s like Freezing touch/ice arrow do. Time Shift could use a cast time reduction as well, but at least it's one of the better more useful aoe mezzes on blasters since it has that slow/-to hit component for procs.

Right, which is about 2/3 ie most. You' re also missing the other part of that paragraph, where I mentioned that they either get (or both) resistance, or a big amount of defense to the types that cause drain in the first place which are cappable on those sets to avoid those drains from hitting you in the first place. The only uniquely terrible set regarding either or is regen, which needs it's on big waves of help, but we all know that topic so should be ignored for now lol.

I could post the other sets power stats sure, but forgive me for assuming that some of you would actually know what they are so it wouldn't be necessary to do so. I haven't pushed out any goal posts as you say, the only thing I HAVE done so far, is try to come to a middle ground on the powers based on what I'd like to see, and what you would, but again, of course you choose to ignore that. There are no links provided that I haven't already either gone over or accounted for. Providing links for these powers would just be senseless copy and pasting for anything that wasn't already said in the thread. 5% per target flat rate, yes it is meager given the duration and recharge on the power, if it was perma-able via a long duration buff, then we're talking about something relevant, but at 15s, while i'ts there versus not, it factors VERY little into the power. Not once have I refuted any ACTUAL data that already exists in game via a powers numbers. Please show me exactly where I said something had a specific number value and said that that wasn't the case, because unless there was an extremely misplaced typo I missed, I guarantee you can't. (again, straight number value, not conjecture based on what other people "feel" is fine", as the straight numbers, are what actual data is, and don't just paste data someone provided, cause obviously I'm already well aware of the actual numbers that exist in game) I never said that. I said that MOST get the end drain resistance. The only one with a similar aoe end drain power that doesn't is ice armor, to which I explained that while it doesn't get the resistance, what it does get is defense that can be capped to avoid the drains in the first place, same with bio, or even willpower if looking at quick recovery, or stone armor (which gets both). The ONLY armor set, that doesn't either have end drain resistance, or defense that can be capped to avoid it, is regen, which that's on it's own level of needing help which doesn't quite fit into the thread. So fire armor is not special in that regard. What it does have though, is while having zero defense boosting powers to avoid those drains in the first place, is a far too long recharging end gain power compared to other sets that offer end help. Unnecessarily as well, considering how very not OP it would make the set to fix that, simply place it in line with other sets.

Regarding this thread only so far yes. Which is why i wouldn't push to have it that much more skewed as an attack. That said, the power would still be warranted for a much shorter base recharge with the main focus still on the end return. Annoyingly when I know so many who agree how it seems to be the case with some frequent forumites. And that's not true, or I wouldn't say what I've just said in the sentence above. And again, even at 60s, theyr're still not "constant" use powers. Alternatively, you could also simply ignore the thread and turn off notifications for it.

Again, didn't read properly what I said. I was referencing them with ALL factors into context. Is your brain even running? Seriously, you might need to shut it down and defragment it.

The problem with that line of thinking already is, that you don't think that the power needs a buff at all. (which again, flabbergasted, but lets move on). That said, you're doubling down on being "shocked" that the end result of any changes, would mean that you get more endurance out of them than you currently do in their current forms. Which YES, that is ENTIRELY the point I'm trying to get across. The other being the sheer annoyance of the recharge times making it that much more annoying to have to wait for it to be up at more profitable times, EVEN on a full build with lots of rech/hasten/bonuses. That said, regarding DC at least, it should be more of an "attack" than it currently is at that recharge, even if that DID mean slightly less endurance, but that would still generally mean more endurance than it does currently due to how out of balance that horridly long recharge is.

Kinda worded weird, but if i gathered properly to respond: Yes it certainly can, regarding any heal set procs, those always go into health anyway as they are uniques, so it's not the same comparison. That really only works with auto end powers who can slot multiple of the performance shifter or power transfer procs.

Yes, which is why you compare both the power, and the SET. As I mentioned already those sets also get end drain resistance, simply in other powers which are automatic. Which is where the higher number of resistance is more justified in a power like this. And EA in ice, sort of does via cappable energy defense which means you hardly ever get HIT with the drains in the first place (a quite glaring hole in most resist based armors in general tbh not having higher debuff resists in general for certain things). Dull pain also grants much higher max hp than autos, or consume. Most of the only reference to dull pain in any post i've said, is that in fact, the power is NOT like dull pain, given the values, as it's closer to any auto max hp power instead. As to the recovery again, in addition to usually a few seconds when consume is first used where that recovery doesn't do anyting, IE a recovery tic would occur anyway when you're already at full end after using consume, that is still extremely meager considering similar powers and it's duration, Those other recovery boost, which in all regards are still rather small, but they DO stack, but more importantly are CONSTANTLY on. So yes, that recovery is extremely pathetic to try to justify the power in it's current recharge.

Regarding Dc, as in how it performs compared to other sets, regarding more as an attack as it is in an attack set, but also obviously including it's end gain capabilities as well, it's still out of balance. On consume, it does have equivalents (power sink, energy absorption, power drain, energy drain etc), and again it was, and is meant for, and should be expected, mainly as an end gain ability. The drain resist, other sets with end powers get as well, its only more because it's not in an auto which is fine tbh, also, those other said powers also grant special stuff on top of the end gain, ie defense except power sink, which also should have some extra benefit tbh). The max hp, was an addition to help the SET in regards to largely the nerf to burn, but it as i've pointed out just as easily could have gone into any other power, most notably (and god I wish for this discussion) in temperature protection. Trying to stuff everything into consume is not a justification for it not properly doing it's main purpose and not getting fixed properly when max hp was added to the *set* just because they randomly chose to stuff it in consume. Regarding the recovery for example, just because it HAS recovery, doesn't mean that it equals the benefit of the other powers at 60s recharge. You could say a power *has* anything, but if the value or duration are so low compared to the powers recharge and how many targets it needs, it pretty much doesn't matter that it's even there. In this case, for such a short duration and such a low amount of recovery per target, it's pretty much there already. And in regards to the max hp, you can't just say now "because it's there", without accounting that the power didn't properly in comparison have proper stats already before to help the set out on endurance as it should have. Again, I REALLY wish they would have just put the max hp in temp protection and been done with this part of the conversation trying to say that it being in consume versus any other power, justifies consume remaining on such a terrible recharge. Edit: regarding the max hp as well, having the shorter recharge to make the proper stats for its end gain capabilities, also does nothing to change the max hp aspect generally, as it's already only at auto values, and easily perma-able anyway (just as if it was in an auto), so changing the stats for the endurance, would not change any aspect of the max hp addition, so even with it being in consume, is still a pretty moot point to the discussion.

I'm not, but it's ok if it doesn't bother YOU. Have fun with it, I on the other hand see where it's sub-par and will try to get the powers fixed properly.

And once again, you clearly are not reading everything I've stated properly. They are easily underperforming in comparison to other similar powers, and for the sets themselves. This, if anything, is more a matter of set and power standards, to which yours obviously, are much lower.

Then you clearly are not reading, or comprehending properly. Edit" which for the record, I have given correct data in every thread, if you don't agree on something that I suggested that's another issue, but I have not given any improper stat here for things existing already in the game. Perhaps you're misunderstanding what was said, reread again properly.

I can play exceedingly well, build well, and am easily the go to guy of anyone I know who needs power/slotting/build advice. (and before you say it, no, that doesn't mean "poor noobies that he's helping" I know what i'm talking about, whether you agree or not is another matter) It's that fact that actually makes these things so big, because I more than most get extra annoyed when sets or powers are not performing properly as they should and also in comparison ot other power sets. Trying to personally attack my proficiency in a set or power does nothing to help your argument except to say that you can't think of anything better and are instead resulting to personal attacks instead of discussing the topic at hand.