Feedback: Testing Melee Set Performance

[Infinitum]

17 minutes ago, Veelectric Boogaloo said:

So yeah, it's a great set, maybe even insanely great with bio or fire, but if it gets a nerf because of its pylon numbers or because a few people are savants and can solo apex on it when i can barely manage to hit those stupid swords with any melee toon, it's likely to become just crappy enough that the greater number of folks abandon it as has happened with nerfs in the past.

I agree with everything you said, but especially this.  I think it's an outlier because of a select few exploiting it and synergies you can gain with it rather than average joe play.  Nerf it, and no non power user will ever play it aside from thematics, which is why I chose it to be honest.

 

I'm IOd out on mine and still dont see what all the fuss is about.

[Galaxy Brain]

Which is why the title, again, is "slap on the wrist" to curb the high end performance which is a big gap compared to other high performance sets.

 

As for herding and missing targets, that is the same issue most any melee set faces if they run away / etc. Opening with an AoE (say, defensive sweep) against more than 1 target in range greatly increases your odds of getting momentum as the odds of missing more than 1 target at once are much slimmer than missing an ST attack.

 

If its nerfed but still the best, it would still be used. All I am asking is that it be tuned down a smidge to curb the higher end performance where it feels way better than any other set.

[Morgrum]

Honestly it sounds like your more on a crusade to hit a set that doesn't need to be hit because a select few can use IO's and power set combos to throw its numbers through the roof.

The same thing can be said about those same combos and what they do to other attack sets when applied to them.

Maybe instead of trying to hit a set with so many disadvantages built in you should look at ways to help sets like dual blades which need to be boosted up.

Now that would be time better spent.

 

[Galaxy Brain]

TW does not have as big a weakness as you think, aside from needing to pay a bit more attention to what attacks you queue up. As pointed out throughout the thread it has much more positive than negative and the built in weakness is only sometimes relevant.  This is without IOs.

[Morgrum]

Or maybe having played one to 50 and playing one actively now Instead of number crunching pylons and looking at spreadsheets I know first hand the difficulties the set has.

Its isn't as plug and play as you are attempting to make it out to be.

Sure on paper it looks great but in game actually playing the game its not what you are making it out to be.

 

Oh yea HI this is Morgrum the old Beta Axe/Fire tanker.

Edited September 12, 2019 by Morgrum

[Galaxy Brain]

I play it too. I had a 50 tw/fire on live, and a tw/rad and tw/wp here in HC. Managing momentum if you have a few targets is not hard to do.

[Morgrum]

I hate to doubt you but what you are saying on this thread and what you should know by playing the set isn't jiving with what myself and others who play the set are saying.

Momentum isn't based on number of targets around you btw.....

[EyeLuvBooks]

3 hours ago, cejmp said:

Wanted to read but you started talking about how hard life is in DFB.

I want to thank you for taking time out of your busy day to contribute nothing meaningful to the discussion.

 

Now I'd like to see numbers on how many players go through the DFB for even a few levels. BTW, I did that, and the AE, to get to a level at which I felt I could contribute to the conversation without wasting several hours leveling up. 

 

But again, thanks for spending the time and energy to be a jerk because we ALL want more like you around.

[Galaxy Brain]

It isnt, but it is far easier to get momentum going in a crowd as you just need to hit 1 target with an AoE opener, and then go to town. It was brought up that it sucks to miss getting momentum going, but the set has a couple of AoE attacks to mitigate not getting momentum + a self buff to give it again. So in average gameplay where you are usually fighting more than 1 target, I have found it trivial to get momentum started. Against a single target it can suck if you whiff for sure, but its rare that I have found myself out of momentum for long in any fight.

[EyeLuvBooks]

49 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Which is why the title, again, is "slap on the wrist" to curb the high end performance which is a big gap compared to other high performance sets.

 

As for herding and missing targets, that is the same issue most any melee set faces if they run away / etc. Opening with an AoE (say, defensive sweep) against more than 1 target in range greatly increases your odds of getting momentum as the odds of missing more than 1 target at once are much slimmer than missing an ST attack.

 

If its nerfed but still the best, it would still be used. All I am asking is that it be tuned down a smidge to curb the higher end performance where it feels way better than any other set.

Again, let's see something on Test. Rather than worrying about the animation times and messing with the timing of an already difficult set, why not just dial down the damage for the top two powers that seem to be causing all the trouble? For my own sake the timing on the set is difficult enough without screwing with it. 

 

I'm willing to bet that 90% of the players wouldn't even notice the change

 

[EyeLuvBooks]

2 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

It isnt, but it is far easier to get momentum going in a crowd as you just need to hit 1 target with an AoE opener, and then go to town. It was brought up that it sucks to miss getting momentum going, but the set has a couple of AoE attacks to mitigate not getting momentum + a self buff to give it again. So in average gameplay where you are usually fighting more than 1 target, I have found it trivial to get momentum started. Against a single target it can suck if you whiff for sure, but its rare that I have found myself out of momentum for long in any fight.

Wait...I'm hearing that TW is this monster set for soloing single targets and now you're saying that it's better vs a crowd because it's easier to get at least one hit with an AoE opener?

 

And it doesn't just 'suck' when you whiff on your opener, it changes ALL the math that people are using to claim that the set is OP. Sure, if you want to tool around fighting +0/X3 it's great but how many players do that? Most of the teams I've been on are at +2 in their 20s and +3 in their 30s or they think it's boring.

[MunkiLord]

I'm of the opinion that I don't think it's a big deal that it is an outlier and should be left as is.

[Galaxy Brain]

23 minutes ago, EyeLuvBooks said:

Again, let's see something on Test. Rather than worrying about the animation times and messing with the timing of an already difficult set, why not just dial down the damage for the top two powers that seem to be causing all the trouble? For my own sake the timing on the set is difficult enough without screwing with it. 

 

I'm willing to bet that 90% of the players wouldn't even notice the change

 

That's the idea. It over performs when played well and its weak points in my experience are not that detracting when you play around it. At high lvl it performs even better, and cutting that back a smidge without effecting the feel or low level (in all senses) play would be best to keep it in line with other sets.

 

 

Edit:

It is amazing for ST, but when arguing for general play that will always have multiple targets for the majority of combat. Given multiple targets, the risk of missing an opener and thus delaying momentum is mitigated greatly.

 

On a Single Target the chance is higher, but assuming that 1/5 attacks is a slow one, and you have a 5% chance to miss per swing... the odds that you miss the opener is somewhere around 1% over time?

Edited September 12, 2019 by Galaxy Brain

[Morgrum]

Ok lets look at some breakdowns here from what folks are playing right now in game.

1	Invulnerability	Super Strength	6914
2	Fiery Aura	Fiery Melee	2838
3	Radiation Armor	Radiation Melee	2305
4	Shield Defense	Broad Sword	2257
5	Stone Armor	Stone Melee	2068
6	Bio Organic Armor	Battle Axe	1702
7	Willpower	Super Strength	1601
8	Electric Armor	Electrical Melee	1527
9	Shield Defense	War Mace	1407
10	Dark Armor	Dark Melee	1277
11	Invulnerability	Titan Weapons	1190

Well over twice SS toons then TW and after that TW/Fiery/Rad are pretty close to one another.

TW's #11 build.

1	Spines	Fiery Aura	12769
2	Super Strength	Invulnerability	4827
3	Radiation Melee	Radiation Armor	3352
4	Super Strength	Willpower	3183
5	Electrical Melee	Shield Defense	3074
6	Radiation Melee	Fiery Aura	3061
7	Electrical Melee	Electric Armor	2824
8	Super Strength	Fiery Aura	2813
9	Brawling	Willpower	2782
10	Fiery Melee	Fiery Aura	2365
11	Broad Sword	Shield Defense	2256
12	Titan Weapons	Willpower	2245

Closer now but Spines and SS are still played handily more then TW.

TW's #12 build

( Cough Farmers.... Rad melee is making a strong comeback here with the new changes )

1	Claws	Regeneration	2511
2	Martial Arts	Super Reflexes	2384
3	Street Justice	Willpower	2307
4	Broad Sword	Shield Defense	2305
5	Electrical Melee	Shield Defense	1842
6	Dark Melee	Dark Armor	1685
7	Katana	Regeneration	1562
8	Katana	Ninjitsu	1522
9	Street Justice	Super Reflexes	1515
10	Spines	Regeneration	1500
11	Electrical Melee	Electric Armor	1458
12	Radiation Melee	Radiation Armor	1428
13	Martial Arts	Regeneration	1426
14	Titan Weapons	Bio Organic Armor	1387

Scrappers the true look at what set works and what does not because they are always on full dps.

Looks like the top 5 are very close to each other... and TW isn't in the top 5.

TW's #14 build oh look its that Pylon killing build folks rant about when they want to nerf TW's

 

Tanker TW's #2 but it is half of what is number 1 and #'s 3,4,5 very close to #2

Brute TW #3 1,2 very close #3 almost 1/3 less played then the first two and like I said Rad melee with the new boost should be sitting around TW in played toons.

Scrapper is all over the place. TW's #7 but its a tight even flow all the way to the top.

 

Is TW a top tier power once it is maxed. Yes

Is it over powered. No it has its limitations and this is the reason you see SS outplaying it time and again.

Could you Imagine a SS Scrapper omg give me some of that!

 

Edited September 12, 2019 by Morgrum

[Hopeling]

2 hours ago, Infinitum said:

Those formulas aren't translating to what the set actually does in gameplay in every scenario though, not for every design possibility anyway.  If you arent building for damage TW isnt going to do the extreme stuff you are talking about.

Since this may not have been clear before: 295 pylon DPS for a brute, without even building for damage, is in fact a very good result, especially for a set that also has very good AoE damage. I distinctly remember purpling out my BS/Inv scrapper, specifically aiming for max ST DPS, and clocking him on a pylon at about 165. Granted this was before Incarnate powers and PPM procs, but today I doubt I could get him far above 200. You're not building for damage and still beating that handily.

2 hours ago, Morgrum said:

Since I keep hearing Brute and Bio armor thrown around a lot as being the issue with TW.

Why not look at those two factors instead of crying wolf on an attack set that has inherent penalties built into it.

[...]

One thing more that is against the TW set the knockback mag is massive insanely so even with a KB to KD IO if its blue you will send the target flying and yellow and orange will go flying if some else so much a farts a KD mag 1.

If anything, TW/Bio scrappers are the poster children for TW brokenness, moreso than TW/Bio brutes. It outperforms other sets with every secondary, though. See my first post on page 3; TW powers literally get to break the damage formula in their favor.

 

TW knockdown is mag 0.67, just like every other knockdown power.

1 hour ago, Veelectric Boogaloo said:

Idk, it's strong but it has definite weaknesses.

[...]

So yeah, it's a great set, maybe even insanely great with bio or fire, but if it gets a nerf because of its pylon numbers or because a few people are savants and can solo apex on it when i can barely manage to hit those stupid swords with any melee toon,

The swords in Apex have Parry. If you can't hit them, get out of melee range for ten seconds until the Parry defense buff falls off, then lead with a knock or mez when you come back in.

 

I honestly don't find that TW has major weaknesses, certainly not in proportion to its strengths. It's good at ST, good at AoE, most of the attacks are very fast, it offers lots of soft control, and with Build Momentum you're not even slow on the opener for about every other spawn. And it gets +def and -res, for some reason. It costs a lot of endurance, but not because the powers are more expensive than comparable counterparts; it simply can pump out lots of big attacks very fast, which means it can spend endurance very fast.

 

This isn't a knee-jerk reaction to pylon times or somebody soloing something. Again, see my comment on page 3.

7 minutes ago, EyeLuvBooks said:

Wait...I'm hearing that TW is this monster set for soloing single targets and now you're saying that it's better vs a crowd because it's easier to get at least one hit with an AoE opener?

 

And it doesn't just 'suck' when you whiff on your opener, it changes ALL the math that people are using to claim that the set is OP. Sure, if you want to tool around fighting +0/X3 it's great but how many players do that? Most of the teams I've been on are at +2 in their 20s and +3 in their 30s or they think it's boring.

Yes, as good as TW is on a single hard target, it's also at least that good against crowds. You can nearly guarantee Momentum by using cones on multiple targets, which largely mitigates the issue that you just mentioned. It has multiple strong AoE attacks; in fact, Arc of Destruction is good enough to make it into most single-target chains, yet in a crowd you get to hit five targets with it instead of just one.

 

TW isn't at all an ST specialist set. That's why it's so silly for it to be the top ST set.

[Morgrum]

1 minute ago, Hopeling said:

 

If anything, TW/Bio scrappers are the poster children for TW brokenness, moreso than TW/Bio brutes. It outperforms other sets with every secondary, though. See my first post on page 3; TW powers literally get to break the damage formula in their favor.

 

 

Once again that is a Bio Armor issue not a TW issue.

[Hopeling]

18 minutes ago, Morgrum said:

 

Looks like the top 5 are very close to each other... and TW isn't in the top 5.

TW's #14 build oh look its that Pylon killing build folks rant about when they want to nerf TW's

TW rises to #3 in the 32-49 breakdown, and #1 at 50. This seems to line up with the claim that it's mediocre to bad at low levels, then becomes very strong later.

TW/Bio is the #2 most popular scrapper combo at 50, after Elec/Shield.

 

But all of this is not especially convincing either way, since popularity is only weakly correlated with performance. Unless you're seriously going to contend that Martial Arts and Regeneration are the best scrapper primary and secondary, which seems rather difficult to defend.

8 minutes ago, Morgrum said:

Once again that is a Bio Armor issue not a TW issue.

It is not strictly a Bio Armor issue, as I went on to say in the very next sentence, which you quoted. Have you read my breakdown on page 3?

Edited September 12, 2019 by Hopeling

[Steampunkette]

2 minutes ago, Hopeling said:

TW rises to #3 in the 32-49 breakdown, and #1 at 50. This seems to line up with the claim that it's mediocre to bad at low levels, then becomes very strong later.

TW/Bio is the #2 most popular scrapper combo at 50, after Elec/Shield.

 

But all of this is not especially convincing either way, since popularity is only weakly correlated with performance. Unless you're seriously going to contend that Martial Arts and Regeneration are the best scrapper primary and secondary, which seems rather difficult to defend.

It is not strictly a Bio Armor issue, as I went on to say in the very next sentence, which you quoted. Have you read my breakdown on page 3?

Out of 6,300 people playing Titan Weapons Scrappers, 1/12 make it to 50.

 

Out of 8,000 people playing Street Justice Scrappers 1 in 26 make it to 50.

 

Out of 4,000 Scrappers playing Electric Melee, 1 in 10 make it to 50.

 

Out of 8,000 Martial Artists, 1 in 22 makes it to 50.

 

Out of 5,500 Spines Scrappers 1 in 12 makes it to 50.

 

When you break the numbers down by percentage, it looks like people just give up on a lot of powersets much more often than your initial numbers present it. But Titan Weapons, Electric Melee, and Spines are all near 1 in 10 going all the way.

[Galaxy Brain]

Hopeling beat me to it, but @Morgrum those stats reflect popularity and not raw effectiveness.  That's why you see a million inv/ss tankers and claw/regens, or theme/theme pairings.

[Infinitum]

14 minutes ago, Hopeling said:

Since this may not have been clear before: 295 pylon DPS for a brute, without even building for damage, is in fact a very good result, especially for a set that also has very good AoE damage. I distinctly remember purpling out my BS/Inv scrapper, specifically aiming for max ST DPS, and clocking him on a pylon at about 165. Granted this was before Incarnate powers and PPM procs, but today I doubt I could get him far above 200. You're not building for damage and still beating that handily.

If anything, TW/Bio scrappers are the poster children for TW brokenness, moreso than TW/Bio brutes. It outperforms other sets with every secondary, though. See my first post on page 3; TW powers literally get to break the damage formula in their favor.

 

TW knockdown is mag 0.67, just like every other knockdown power.

The swords in Apex have Parry. If you can't hit them, get out of melee range for ten seconds until the Parry defense buff falls off, then lead with a knock or mez when you come back in.

 

I honestly don't find that TW has major weaknesses, certainly not in proportion to its strengths. It's good at ST, good at AoE, most of the attacks are very fast, it offers lots of soft control, and with Build Momentum you're not even slow on the opener for about every other spawn. And it gets +def and -res, for some reason. It costs a lot of endurance, but not because the powers are more expensive than comparable counterparts; it simply can pump out lots of big attacks very fast, which means it can spend endurance very fast.

 

This isn't a knee-jerk reaction to pylon times or somebody soloing something. Again, see my comment on page 3.

Yes, as good as TW is on a single hard target, it's also at least that good against crowds. You can nearly guarantee Momentum by using cones on multiple targets, which largely mitigates the issue that you just mentioned. It has multiple strong AoE attacks; in fact, Arc of Destruction is good enough to make it into most single-target chains, yet in a crowd you get to hit five targets with it instead of just one.

 

TW isn't at all an ST specialist set. That's why it's so silly for it to be the top ST set.

My EM brute by all definations a broken set beat it though.  Exact same secondary, slotting set bonuses and all.

 

Damage is damage no matter how many its supposed to hit.  The only place TW shines for me is minion lieu mob clearing.

 

It's not fast on bosses or higher even when compared to my EM.

 

Definitely doesn't feel over powered.

[Galaxy Brain]

How much did it beat it by in this specific test?

[EyeLuvBooks]

30 minutes ago, Morgrum said:

Ok lets look at some breakdowns here from what folks are playing right now in game.

1	Invulnerability	Super Strength	6914
2	Fiery Aura	Fiery Melee	2838
3	Radiation Armor	Radiation Melee	2305
4	Shield Defense	Broad Sword	2257
5	Stone Armor	Stone Melee	2068
6	Bio Organic Armor	Battle Axe	1702
7	Willpower	Super Strength	1601
8	Electric Armor	Electrical Melee	1527
9	Shield Defense	War Mace	1407
10	Dark Armor	Dark Melee	1277
11	Invulnerability	Titan Weapons	1190

Well over twice SS toons then TW and after that TW/Fiery/Rad are pretty close to one another.

TW's #11 build.

1	Spines	Fiery Aura	12769
2	Super Strength	Invulnerability	4827
3	Radiation Melee	Radiation Armor	3352
4	Super Strength	Willpower	3183
5	Electrical Melee	Shield Defense	3074
6	Radiation Melee	Fiery Aura	3061
7	Electrical Melee	Electric Armor	2824
8	Super Strength	Fiery Aura	2813
9	Brawling	Willpower	2782
10	Fiery Melee	Fiery Aura	2365
11	Broad Sword	Shield Defense	2256
12	Titan Weapons	Willpower	2245

Closer now but Spines and SS are still played handily more then TW.

TW's #12 build

( Cough Farmers.... Rad melee is making a strong comeback here with the new changes )

1	Claws	Regeneration	2511
2	Martial Arts	Super Reflexes	2384
3	Street Justice	Willpower	2307
4	Broad Sword	Shield Defense	2305
5	Electrical Melee	Shield Defense	1842
6	Dark Melee	Dark Armor	1685
7	Katana	Regeneration	1562
8	Katana	Ninjitsu	1522
9	Street Justice	Super Reflexes	1515
10	Spines	Regeneration	1500
11	Electrical Melee	Electric Armor	1458
12	Radiation Melee	Radiation Armor	1428
13	Martial Arts	Regeneration	1426
14	Titan Weapons	Bio Organic Armor	1387

Scrappers the true look at what set works and what does not because they are always on full dps.

Looks like the top 5 are very close to each other... and TW isn't in the top 5.

TW's #14 build oh look its that Pylon killing build folks rant about when they want to nerf TW's

 

Tanker TW's #2 but it is half of what is number 1 and #'s 3,4,5 very close to #2

Brute TW #3 1,2 very close #3 almost 1/3 less played then the first two and like I said Rad melee with the new boost should be sitting around TW in played toons.

Scrapper is all over the place. TW's #7 but its a tight even flow all the way to the top.

 

Is TW a top tier power once it is maxed. Yes

Is it over powered. No it has its limitations and this is the reason you see SS outplaying it time and again.

Could you Imagine a SS Scrapper omg give me some of that!

 

So...based on these numbers, Spines and SS are the two most-played sets for melee toons! OMG they MUST be OP! Why would they be so popular if they weren't! Obviously the number-crunchers call for nerfs NOW!

 

As I said, TW is a great set and only OP in edge cases, not as the norm.

[Infinitum]

this is starting to look more and more like a TW/Bio and scrapper issue than anything else.  If it was as OP as you guys are saying, why doesnt it overtake Spines fire on Brutes?

 

Damage is damage right?

[Morgrum]

7 minutes ago, Hopeling said:

TW rises to #3 in the 32-49 breakdown, and #1 at 50. This seems to line up with the claim that it's mediocre to bad at low levels, then becomes very strong later.

 

It is not strictly a Bio Armor issue, as I went on to say in the very next sentence, which you quoted. Have you read my breakdown on page 3?

Yes I have and while TW does a bit more damage per say then other sets it was a balancing act for its slowness and built in penalties it was always designed that way.

TW's came out way before Bio armor.

Bio armor if I remember right never went live and was never balanced for release.

You are once again focusing on a secondary set that has never been tweaked for balancing to show how a attack set that was tweaked before it was released is an issue.

[Megajoule]

Farmers pick Spines.

People who want to be Superman pick Super Strength.

??? pick Titan Weapons.

 

(I want to say ???="people who know TW is OP".)