Feedback: Testing Melee Set Performance

[Steampunkette]

1 minute ago, Haijinx said:

So its possible but highly unlikely to be used on a SO build.  

 

But pretty easy to pull off with IOs

 

Hmm.  

Also -extremely- easy to pull off if you have a Time Manipulator on your team. Whether Time/ or /Time (But not a /Time Blaster, obviously!). Or Kinetics. Or Radiation Support for that sweet -sweet- Accelerate Metabolism!

[Haijinx]

8 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

Not a lot, it turns out... the power recharges in 10 seconds, base, and you can slot it for Recharge with 2 SOs and grab Hasten to have it every 4.7 seconds during Hasten Windows. Use it at the start of Momentum, use it at the end of Momentum, and use RA and AoD in the middle. 

 

Of course, you -could- get into the absolutely silly levels of recharge reduction that IO Sets can produce... and that just opens things up even wider.

It seems like if you made it so you could only follow through once you'd reduce this situational uber dps. 

 

But the how seems tricky.  Since reducing momemtum uptime would make the set feel even clunkier. 

 

And dramatically reduce set performance for people who aren't getting two follow throughs in. 

 

 

[Hopeling]

47 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Serious question how when in momentum is follow through the best ST attack when both RA and AoD do a good bit more damage in around the same amount of activation time?

"Best" is admittedly a loaded word for me to use here. What I mean is: in a decent ST chain, Follow Through is going to do more total damage than any of your other attacks (you can see this directly if you run HeroStats on a pylon test). It doesn't hit the hardest or have the highest DPA (that's Rend Armor), but it does hit almost as hard as Arc (101 for FT, 108 for Arc, 134 for Rend), faster than other attacks (1.188s for FT, 1.716s for Arc, 1.452s for Rend), and recharges faster than either (10s for FT, 20s for Arc, 16s for Rend). It's your bread-and-butter attack. You can put out three FTs for every two Rends, and two FTs for every Arc.

 

Which leads us to...

1 hour ago, Infinitum said:

No, it's my build, it's that way for a reason, I'm not changing it.

I mean, that's fine. Nobody said that you have to build your character for max ST DPS. It's one thing to not build for pure damage; you don't HAVE to stack purple procs and Musculature and Assault to get decent performance out of the set. But you didn't just not specialize in ST damage; you deliberately sacrificed a significant amount of ST damage for other things. This would be like me slotting Total Focus for stun and then saying that it doesn't hit hard. Sure, it doesn't with that slotting, but that's not the power's fault.

 

Semi-relatedly, even if you don't have FT, Whirling Smash still shouldn't be in a single-target chain; on a single target it has the worst DPA in the set besides Defensive Sweep. Titan Sweep or Crushing Blow would be a strictly better chain.

33 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

@Infinitum Unless you can get the recharge time of Rend Armor down to 1.76 seconds and Arc of Destruction down to 1.45 seconds you've got dead air in your 'Single Target' momentum chain. If you're throwing stuff in it to fill time, that's great! It's not going to be as good as Follow Up, though.

No, in fairness, I think Infinitum is right on this one and I'm the one who made a mistake. TW attacks do weird things with recharge; I think that (in Momentum, at least), they start recharging when the power starts activating instead of when it finishes activating (or something like that; see below). That means that, in a Rend-Arc-Whirl-Rend-Arc-Whirl chain, Arc only needs to recharge in (1.716+1.188+1.452)=4.59s. That may still have a small gap for realistic levels of self-buffed recharge, but nowhere near 1.3 seconds.

3 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

That does sound like its fairly difficult to achieve though, timing it so you can manage two follow throughs on a single momentum cycle in a dynamic team setting. 

 

If you couldn't do that i doubt it would change how most people play the set.

 

How much recharge do you need for two?

If I'm right about how TW handles recharge, the chain Slow Rend - FT - CB - Arc - FT requires FT to recharge in less than 2.508+1.188=3.696s when you use it on both sides of a slow Rend, which requires +170% recharge in Follow Through (counting both slotting and global recharge bonuses). In practice, my scrapper has a gap after Rend when doing this without Hasten (99% slotting + 86% global=185% total), but no gap during Hasten (255% total), so maybe it doesn't quite work like that I guess? So the answer to your question is "somewhere between +185% and +255%". Assuming ED-capped recharge slotting, that translates to somewhere between +90% and +160% global recharge.

 

Doing it in a team setting doesn't seem to be much more difficult than doing it solo. Being able to stand still for five seconds in a row isn't THAT rare.

[Infinitum]

55 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

@Infinitum Unless you can get the recharge time of Rend Armor down to 1.76 seconds and Arc of Destruction down to 1.45 seconds you've got dead air in your 'Single Target' momentum chain. If you're throwing stuff in it to fill time, that's great! It's not going to be as good as Follow Up, though. 

 

So you're literally using a build that has shot itself in the foot, out of the gate, on single target damage and claiming that it doesn't do OP Single Target Damage in fact of the numbers because your experience doesn't line up with it. I'll give you an analogy, as a call back to way back when you mistook fallacy for analogy!

 

That's like buying a prize winning racehorse, hobbling it with a rope, and complaining when it comes in fourth place.

 

"But it should still be good if the set is OP overall haw haw haw lulz!" Nah, Bro. You don't use AoE superiority on a Single Target and pretend it's the same thing. The set has OP AoE for AoE situations 'cause of it's high damage to area ratio, that shit doesn't matter in a single target situation. It's also got great single target damage if you don't self-nerf it. You did self-nerf it. You nerfed it into the ground and are using that experience to try and express how 'Not Strong' the set is.

 

I'm honestly kind of flabbergasted by all this. The reason you don't think the set needs nerfs is because you nerfed it on your characters. That shit is HILARIOUS.

You guys can't say anything concisely or non insulting can you?

 

You haven't even leveled yours to 50 so you really dont have much weight in how you are trying to insult me here.

 

1. What I'm saying is I built the set for multi hit.

 

2. I'm ok with it losing ST due to that.

 

3. How many people will try the same thing?

 

4. How many people have never heard of mids?

 

5. We are comparing it to EM which is slow and broken, if TW was as OP as you guys arr claiming the average user shouldnt miss a beat in any build they put together.

 

All they will see is cone, hits multiple targets,  oooo ok give me that. Having no idea what they are doing possible missing out on a good st attack for their chain. 

 

You are correct I willingly did it from day 1 because I want to hit as many targets as possible with every swing.  That's what I did, but even so even if I changed my build I don't think it would run away from EM like something so OP should.

 

The game isn't just for power users, and min maxers, that should be taken into account also.

[Steampunkette]

11 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

It seems like if you made it so you could only follow through once you'd reduce this situational uber dps. 

 

But the how seems tricky.  Since reducing momemtum uptime would make the set feel even clunkier. 

 

And dramatically reduce set performance for people who aren't getting two follow throughs in. 

 

 

That's why I like my fix. It reduces the DPS of the set during Momentum in general, but not by a ton. Whether you follow up twice for the big spike or not.

[Infinitum]

10 minutes ago, Hopeling said:

No, in fairness, I think Infinitum is right on this one and I'm the one who made a mistake. TW attacks do weird things with recharge; I think that (in Momentum, at least), they start recharging when the power starts activating instead of when it finishes activating (or something like that; see below). That means that, in a Rend-Arc-Whirl-Rend-Arc-Whirl chain, Arc only needs to recharge in (1.716+1.188+1.452)=4.59s. That may still have a small gap for realistic levels of self-buffed recharge, but nowhere near 1.3 seconds.

Lol holy crap can I give you a hug?  lol seriously, im not trying to be obtuse here, I'm seriously just wanting to not allow a mistake to something that could lead to others.

 

Thanks for explaining that attack chain metric to me, it's starting to make more sense.

[Infinitum]

16 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

It seems like if you made it so you could only follow through once you'd reduce this situational uber dps. 

 

But the how seems tricky.  Since reducing momemtum uptime would make the set feel even clunkier. 

 

And dramatically reduce set performance for people who aren't getting two follow throughs in. 

 

 

Making it worse for people who don't or won't maximize it in essence.

 

That's my point not everyone is going to build it the same way.

[Haijinx]

7 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

That's why I like my fix. It reduces the DPS of the set during Momentum in general, but not by a ton. Whether you follow up twice for the big spike or not.

If people don't use 2 follow throughs though, how OP is the set in those situations?  

 

Since lowering DPS will increase the need for optimization. 

 

What i mean is this.  You don't want to make it so people have to use 2 follow throughs as a fix for the problem of using two follow throughs. >.<

[Steampunkette]

Just now, Haijinx said:

If people don't use 2 follow throughs though, how OP is the set in those situations?  

 

Since lowering DPS will increase the need for optimization. 

 

What i mean is this.  You don't want to make it so people have to use 2 follow throughs as a fix for the problem of using two follow throughs. >.<

It doesn't. Remember: Most of the powers in the set are overbalanced -outside- of momentum by between 10 and 44%. INSIDE Momentum those numbers increase, whether you follow through once or twice.

 

By spreading out the Momentum Window and Momentum Times for animations we reduce the DPS without reducing the number of powers that activate during the Momentum Window.

 

Also! https://forums.homecomingservers.com/fotm-powers/ The overwhelming majority of Titan Weapons Users (624/748 on Brutes, for example) take Follow Through. So the "Some of us don't" argument that Infinitum is peddling is accurate, but ultimately irrelevant.

[Haijinx]

I took all of the attacks except the teir 1.  I don't need a def boost with all that knock down and the recharges are so long i need a lot of attacks.  

 

I just got hasten though, so i haven't managed to do 2 followthroughs in one momentum yet, ill try it.  

 

I think if the double follow through is the big offender maybe that is what should be looked at first, instead of more sweeping changes set wide.

 

 

 

[Infinitum]

12 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

It doesn't. Remember: Most of the powers in the set are overbalanced -outside- of momentum by between 10 and 44%. INSIDE Momentum those numbers increase, whether you follow through once or twice.

 

By spreading out the Momentum Window and Momentum Times for animations we reduce the DPS without reducing the number of powers that activate during the Momentum Window.

 

Also! https://forums.homecomingservers.com/fotm-powers/ The overwhelming majority of Titan Weapons Users (624/748 on Brutes, for example) take Follow Through. So the "Some of us don't" argument that Infinitum is peddling is accurate, but ultimately irrelevant.

I'm not peddling anything, its just a statement of fact, and you don't even have a lvl 50 TW to base any real time play based opinion on.  you cant possibly have an objective opinion because you havent played it all the way up.

 

No need to be a dbag in every post, I'm sure others here cant stand me also, but at least they aren't as rudely dismissive as you are when you havent even played the set through.

Edited September 13, 2019 by Infinitum

[Infinitum]

3 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

I took all of the attacks except the teir 1.  I don't need a def boost with all that knock down and the recharges are so long i need a lot of attacks.  

 

I just got hasten though, so i haven't managed to do 2 followthroughs in one momentum yet, ill try it.  

 

I think if the double follow through is the big offender maybe that is what should be looked at first, instead of more sweeping changes set wide.

Yeah I can see the point there actually, because without it it definately loses the OP luster being claimed here.

[DSorrow]

37 minutes ago, Hopeling said:

No, in fairness, I think Infinitum is right on this one and I'm the one who made a mistake. TW attacks do weird things with recharge; I think that (in Momentum, at least), they start recharging when the power starts activating instead of when it finishes activating (or something like that; see below). That means that, in a Rend-Arc-Whirl-Rend-Arc-Whirl chain, Arc only needs to recharge in (1.716+1.188+1.452)=4.59s. That may still have a small gap for realistic levels of self-buffed recharge, but nowhere near 1.3 seconds.

I just tested this with my TW/Elec. 161.25% Global recharge, T3 Agility, purple sets (without the straight Damage enhancement) in AoD / RA and a full set of Obliteration in Whirling Smash. I'm getting something under 1.5 seconds gap with this chain. It's significant enough that it's definitely over 1 second, but I can't be bothered to take a video and analyze the frames to say exactly how long the gap is.

 

Paying some  more attention into my attacks, what I think happens with TW attack recharges is that they start recharging when their Momentum animation time is over. I.e., AoD starts recharging after 1.716 seconds of animation and RA starts recharging after 1.452 seconds of animation whether or not Momentum is up . So:

• in the case AoD is activated outside Momentum, it would need to recharge in (1.188 + 1.452 + [2.904 - 1.716]) = 3.8 seconds for that chain to be gapless, or in other words, need 20/3.8 -1 = 422% recharge enhancement when +400% is the hard cap.
• in the case RA is the one that activates out of Momentum, AoD needs to recharge in (1.188 + 2.508) = 3.7 seconds
• obviously there's a gap if Momentum stops before Whirl

In short, I can't make that chain work experimentally with almost ~180% Global recharge (Agility included) and ~90% Recharge enhancement and there's no way I can see that chain working theoretically.

[Galaxy Brain]

@Infinitum, building for AoE is fun as hell but when you were comparing EM's single target dps to TW's you did not run the same sort of test.

 

EM only has whirling hands for AoE so the chain you used would be best on a single target at a time. The TW chain in turn, for a fair comparison, should be the one youd use on a single target as well. Same as if you were comparing EM and say, Street Justice but leaned on the AoE attacks instead of ST attacks in there.

[Steampunkette]

13 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

I took all of the attacks except the teir 1.  I don't need a def boost with all that knock down and the recharges are so long i need a lot of attacks.  

 

I just got hasten though, so i haven't managed to do 2 followthroughs in one momentum yet, ill try it.  

 

I think if the double follow through is the big offender maybe that is what should be looked at first, instead of more sweeping changes set wide.

 

It isn't "The big offender". The big offender is Whirling Smash at 44% OP. Though, to be fair, that power -only- works in Momentum. Defensive Sweep, on the other hand, is 18% over the standard for damage calculations -outside- of Momentum. Inside Momentum it gets faster.

 

The only reason people brought up Follow Through is that Infinitum didn't take it into account for his Single Target Attack Chain, instead focusing on crowbaring AoE attacks into the ST chain. He didn't take it, so the whole set feels "Weak" on Single Target compared to the overpowered individual powers.

 

You don't have to use Follow Up Twice inside a Momentum Window to get good single target damage. But it helps.

[Infinitum]

1 minute ago, Galaxy Brain said:

@Infinitum, building for AoE is fun as hell but when you were comparing EM's single target dps to TW's you did not run the same sort of test.

 

EM only has whirling hands for AoE so the chain you used would be best on a single target at a time. The TW chain in turn, for a fair comparison, should be the one youd use on a single target as well. Same as if you were comparing EM and say, Street Justice but leaned on the AoE attacks instead of ST attacks in there.

Its all I had to run, at some point someone on here said no way under any circumstances could EM out damage TW.  In fairness I didn't think it would either even under these circumstances.

 

So im not trying to cherry pick, its just what I had.

 

So thats what I did.  I'm not saying my build was optimized for it, just what I had.

[DSorrow]

17 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

but at least they aren't as rudely dismissive

 

17 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

you havent even played the set through

I honestly find it pretty hilarious that you chose to write these two things one after another.

Edited September 13, 2019 by DSorrow

[Infinitum]

Just now, DSorrow said:

 

I honestly find it pretty hilarious that you chose to write these two things right after another.

Thats not dismissive, lol thats a fact, how can you be an expert on something you have never done, or experienced?

 

You dont see the problem there talking about powers they have never selected?

[Steampunkette]

3 minutes ago, DSorrow said:

 

I honestly find it pretty hilarious that you chose to write these two things one after another.

It's insincere civility.

 

"You have to be civil with me or else you're wrong. But I can be uncivil and accusatory and if you lose your cool you're wrong!"

 

 

[Hopeling]

4 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

You dont see the problem there talking about powers they have never selected?

Bruh, that's what you spent the last 10 pages doing with Follow Through. Meanwhile you've also repeatedly told all of us you don't believe we've even played the set. A little less condescension would be nice.

Edited September 13, 2019 by Hopeling

[DSorrow]

3 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Thats not dismissive, lol thats a fact, how can you be an expert on something you have never done, or experienced?

 

You dont see the problem there talking about powers they have never selected?

No, I don't see any problem in that. I see a problem in your argument, though:

 

Quote

It is also a fallacious ad hominem argument to argue that a person presenting statements lacks authority and thus their arguments do not need to be considered.

Citation [Number 64]

[Infinitum]

2 minutes ago, DSorrow said:

No, I don't see any problem in that. I see a problem in your argument, though:

 

Citation [Number 64]

So you need brain surgery, you want someone thats never done it to perform the surgery?

Edited September 13, 2019 by Infinitum

[Haijinx]

9 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

It isn't "The big offender". The big offender is Whirling Smash at 44% OP. Though, to be fair, that power -only- works in Momentum. Defensive Sweep, on the other hand, is 18% over the standard for damage calculations -outside- of Momentum. Inside Momentum it gets faster.

 

The only reason people brought up Follow Through is that Infinitum didn't take it into account for his Single Target Attack Chain, instead focusing on crowbaring AoE attacks into the ST chain. He didn't take it, so the whole set feels "Weak" on Single Target compared to the overpowered individual powers.

 

You don't have to use Follow Up Twice inside a Momentum Window to get good single target damage. But it helps.

I dont think good ST damage is the problem.  The stated problem is extreme ST damage, right?

 

So it makes sense to target the more extreme aspects first.  

 

ST was the current discussion point, whirling smash and defensive sweep would be part of an AOE point.

[Infinitum]

4 minutes ago, Hopeling said:

Bruh, that's what you spent the last 10 pages doing with Follow Through. Meanwhile you've also repeatedly told all of us you don't believe we've even played the set. A little less condescension would be nice.

Lol. Its not the same and you know it.

[DSorrow]

Just now, Infinitum said:

So you need brain surgery, you want someone thats never done it to perform the surgery?

That would be a strawman [126].