Feedback: Testing Melee Set Performance

[yeetsman]

8 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

If other sets are buffed, TW would still be above them is the whole point. Buffing other sets to match TW would make them bonkers. Ideally this would be like a ~15% downward tun on TW's high end performance, and then a 30% boost to multiple other sets.

lol be careful that dude is just gonna go back to trolling when he realizes he dont have any actual arguments ... smh

[Infinitum]

29 minutes ago, yeetsman said:

lol be careful that dude is just gonna go back to trolling when he realizes he dont have any actual arguments ... smh

Not trolling, same thing happened when EM was nerfed, nobody listened Then, im hoping someone will now.

 

People threw out all kinds of numbers how broken EM was, I told them it would ruin the set.

 

Here we are again, the same spreadsheet warriors are trying to ruin something actually working good for a lot of people in melee.

 

Ignore the actual stuff that is broken in the game lets make what feels super feel less super and leave the broken stuff broken.

 

Makes sense.

Edited September 14, 2019 by Infinitum

[Steampunkette]

1 minute ago, Infinitum said:

Not trolling, same thing happened when EM was nerfed, nobody listened Then, im hoping someone will now.

 

People threw out all kinds of numbers how broken EM was, I told them it would ruin the set.

 

Here we are again, the same spreadsheet warriors are trying to ruin something actually working good for a lot of people in melee.

 

Ignore the actual stuff that is broken in the game lets make what feels super feel less super and leave the broken stuff broken.

 

Makes sense.

Start threads on the stuff you consider Broken, Infinitum. That's what everyone does.

 

Whether it's a Buff Thread, a Nerf Thread, or a "Hey, how about this other idea for a thing we could have?" thread.

 

You think Controllers are broken? Make a thread about it. You htink Defenders are OP? Make a thread about it.

 

Don't try to deflect criticism from a broken set with "Other stuff is also/more/differently broken!" if you don't have the conviction to try and fix the other stuff. At that point you're just wasting everyone's time by pretending there's a Zero Sum Game where there isn't.

[Infinitum]

50 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

If other sets are buffed, TW would still be above them is the whole point. Buffing other sets to match TW would make them bonkers. Ideally this would be like a ~15% downward tun on TW's high end performance, and then a 30% boost to multiple other sets.

They still need the buff, doing that first makes more people happy than nerfing TW.  I dont see in any way how nerfing it would benefit anyone especually if its only slightly better.

 

Like I said there is way more broken things to look at than TW which by any defination is only mildly OP.

[Heraclea]

51 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

If other sets are buffed, TW would still be above them is the whole point. Buffing other sets to match TW would make them bonkers. Ideally this would be like a ~15% downward tun on TW's high end performance, and then a 30% boost to multiple other sets.

Melee sets generally have been slowly written out of the game since the days of Going Rogue at least.  This is why the serious proposal on Test now is to buff Tanker damage and AoE performance across the board.  The fact that one melee set makes it possible for those who take it on a DPS class can do maybe two thirds the damage of a blaster with a lot less sustainability, does not mean that it is overpowered; it means that the rest ought to be raised to its level.  Scrappers already bring too little to team play.  Don't shut them out of their core function.

[Infinitum]

9 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

Start threads on the stuff you consider Broken, Infinitum. That's what everyone does.

 

Whether it's a Buff Thread, a Nerf Thread, or a "Hey, how about this other idea for a thing we could have?" thread.

 

You think Controllers are broken? Make a thread about it. You htink Defenders are OP? Make a thread about it.

 

Don't try to deflect criticism from a broken set with "Other stuff is also/more/differently broken!" if you don't have the conviction to try and fix the other stuff. At that point you're just wasting everyone's time by pretending there's a Zero Sum Game where there isn't.

I dont want to start threads on it, because ultimately I believe Homecoming will come to the correct conclusion without me telling them what they already know.

 

This is a waste of time on a set most people actually enjoy.

 

I really dont care if the other stuff is fixed either, I have no issue with a controller soloing a GM but by any definition thats really broken.

 

I think melee should shine as bright as the buff debuff game does.

 

I remember arguing till I was blue in the face on live with someone - I cant remember their name - that the buff debuff game would supplant the melee game and whether it is a tank scrapper or brute those all would pale in comparison.  I didnt believe them but here we are.

 

It still kinda does but with incarnates, and sets like TW, and bio armor (never played it) have allowed the game to balance again between the various ATs.

 

Balancing the set is one thing. But overall game balance is more important and to continue gimping melee puts the entire game out of balance to where melee becomes dependent on other things to male it work well.

 

Not once has overall game balance come I to question in here but it matters also.

[Infinitum]

5 minutes ago, Heraclea said:

Melee sets generally have been slowly written out of the game since the days of Going Rogue at least.  This is why the serious proposal on Test now is to buff Tanker damage and AoE performance across the board.  The fact that one melee set makes it possible for those who take it on a DPS class can do maybe two thirds the damage of a blaster with a lot less sustainability, does not mean that it is overpowered; it means that the rest ought to be raised to its level.  Scrappers already bring too little to team play.  Don't shut them out of their core function.

Seriously, you get it.  Thanks thats what I was trying to say too.

[Galaxy Brain]

That's an interesting way of looking at it. How are melee sets falling behind exactly?

 

What measurement are we using here?

 

What we are measuring is 1 melee set vs the rest of the melee sets in terms of performance. Measuring "support" is very nebulous unless you have some parameters. 

[TheAdjustor]

You know there was a reason nerf herding wasn't permitted on the live forums.

[Steampunkette]

22 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

That's an interesting way of looking at it. How are melee sets falling behind exactly?

 

What measurement are we using here?

 

What we are measuring is 1 melee set vs the rest of the melee sets in terms of performance. Measuring "support" is very nebulous unless you have some parameters. 

Blasters bring more damage to a team than Scrappers do. Any class with a Support option brings the potential to be a force multiplier, increasing the damage of any or all characters on the team.

 

Scrappers provide damage and not much else in a team situation, and not better than a Blaster does. So what's the point of them?

 

Stalkers are basically the same, though at least they can work up guaranteed amazing single target crits through Assassin's Strike and Assassin's Opportunity.

 

Tankers were pretty well out of a job thanks to Brutes, but they'll be getting their damage cap increased and overall damage, too, which will make them better to have on a team, probably more than enough to compete with Brutes... but Scrappers were kind of in the same boat with 'em.

 

Scrappers are going to need some changes 'soonish'. Because it's not the sets, it's the AT.

[Haijinx]

6 hours ago, Infinitum said:

Yeah, I'm still not convinced, I can see how on Scrappers under some circumstances it may appear OP, but if you nerf the set as a whole it may not affect AOE performance because that does feel OP single target will suffer especially on builds like mine, ie it will still obliterate the minions but will take even longer on bosses.

 

I cant be the only one that would run into this either.

 

I think the more fair course would be to buff the poorly performing sets.  Then see how that impacts the game.  Revisit TW at that point.

You can hardly balance a set based on what builds some people use. 

 

There are people that build tankers that use only auto powers for defenses and pool powers for attacks.

 

You have to balance based on what people are able to build instead.

[Haijinx]

9 minutes ago, TheAdjustor said:

You know there was a reason nerf herding wasn't permitted on the live forums.

The irony of your name vs the content of your post ... 

 

 

[Infinitum]

17 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

Blasters bring more damage to a team than Scrappers do. Any class with a Support option brings the potential to be a force multiplier, increasing the damage of any or all characters on the team.

 

Scrappers provide damage and not much else in a team situation, and not better than a Blaster does. So what's the point of them?

 

Stalkers are basically the same, though at least they can work up guaranteed amazing single target crits through Assassin's Strike and Assassin's Opportunity.

 

Tankers were pretty well out of a job thanks to Brutes, but they'll be getting their damage cap increased and overall damage, too, which will make them better to have on a team, probably more than enough to compete with Brutes... but Scrappers were kind of in the same boat with 'em.

 

Scrappers are going to need some changes 'soonish'. Because it's not the sets, it's the AT.

I always looked at the scrappers as the blasters of melee.

 

Scrappers don't really need any sweeping AT changes, criticals are good - even better with procs, they just need a few sets buffed - maybe a few mechanics added into them like psi melee has and stuff like TW to be left alone.

 

Does every TW attack have a chance to crit? And every TW air have a chance to crit multiples?

Edited September 14, 2019 by Infinitum

[Galaxy Brain]

Stalkers bring amazing burst damage and can eliminate key threats faster than any other AT 90% of the time, and if they choose have light CC and debuffing from Assassinations.

 

Tankers and Brutes bring aggro management to corral enemies and keep the team safer by directing incoming damage to them. With the upcoming Tanker changes, they can clear up riff raff well enough while doing this as well.

 

Scrappers are between these where they do very solid damage and can hold their own compared to blasters which can go down easy if the player is not aware of themselves. They are also great for Solo and small teams. As Infinitum put it, they're sort of like melee blasters along with Stalkers where they trade amazing ST for more AoE, and some defenses for more Damage than brutes and tanks. So their role on a team is damage, not quite at blaster level but at the same time they are much much much sturdier out of the gate allowing them more freedom in a lot of scenarios.

 

Also yes, all TW attacks can critical hit on scrappers which may inflate the problem higher on them. Averaged out over time, it's like a 7% damage boost vs general content. But in the moment, it can be like a 1000damage hit.

Edited September 14, 2019 by Galaxy Brain

[Infinitum]

18 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

Tankers were pretty well out of a job thanks to Brutes, but they'll be getting their damage cap increased and overall damage, too, which will make them better to have on a team, probably more than enough to compete with Brutes... but Scrappers were kind of in the same boat with 'em.

funny you said this also, Pre EM nerf an EM tank could do useful dps - really good actually using the attack chain I posted earlier, I had one, it was better than a lot of Scrappers in fact.

 

Why was EM nerfed? it was mainly stalkers and to a minor extent brutes in PvP from everything I read.

 

Is there any truth to that?

 

Either way, tanks suffered the most with the EM nerf because it was a dps shining star for tanks.  After that you had to build SS to increase damage by double stacking rage or Fire to have insane AoEs, but EM was one of the best for tanks.

 

At least tanks are getting some love now.

 

I gave a few ideas on that and am glad I will be able to branch out into the tank world again unfettered soon.

[Infinitum]

3 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Stalkers bring amazing burst damage and can eliminate key threats faster than any other AT 90% of the time, and if they choose have light CC and debuffing from Assassinations.

 

Tankers and Brutes bring aggro management to corral enemies and keep the team safer by directing incoming damage to them. With the upcoming Tanker changes, they can clear up riff raff well enough while doing this as well.

 

Scrappers are between these where they do very solid damage and can hold their own compared to blasters which can go down easy if the player is not aware of themselves. They are also great for Solo and small teams. As Infinitum put it, they're sort of like melee blasters along with Stalkers where they trade amazing ST for more AoE, and some defenses for more Damage than brutes and tanks. So their role on a team is damage, not quite at blaster level but at the same time they are much much much sturdier out of the gate allowing them more freedom in a lot of scenarios.

 

Also yes, all TW attacks can critical hit on scrappers which may inflate the problem higher on them. Averaged out over time, it's like a 7% damage boost vs general content. But in the moment, it can be like a 1000damage hit.

That's kinda neat whirling smash or better yet AoD could do that much damage.  Add in the critical price and That is a melee blaster.

[Galaxy Brain]

I do think EM nerfs were a fiasco of inexperience. The sets were sort of copy-paste between the ATs, so nerfing the set just had a wide reaching effect. 

[Steampunkette]

2 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Stalkers bring amazing burst damage and can eliminate key threats faster than any other AT 90% of the time, and if they choose have light CC and debuffing from Assassinations.

 

Tankers and Brutes bring aggro management to corral enemies and keep the team safer by directing incoming damage to them. With the upcoming Tanker changes, they can clear up riff raff well enough while doing this as well.

 

Scrappers are between these where they do very solid damage and can hold their own compared to blasters which can go down easy if the player is not aware of themselves. They are also great for Solo and small teams. As Infinitum put it, they're sort of like melee blasters along with Stalkers where they trade amazing ST for more AoE, and some defenses for more Damage than brutes and tanks. 

 

Also yes, all TW attacks can critical hit on scrappers which may inflate the problem higher on them. Averaged out over time, it's like a 7% damage boost vs general content. But in the moment, it can be like a 1000damage hit.

Scrappers are the quintessential Solo AT, no question about it.

 

Enough survivability to do their thing, enough damage to rip apart the NPCs they're fighting...

 

But in a -team- environment? They provide very little. They have Control and Support keeping them safe and buffed, they're not stealing the aggro off the Tanker or Brute. So what is it they bring to the team aside from more damage? A Blaster can bring that -and- bring more of it. A Corruptor can bring the damage -and- pull out some more force multiplication.

 

... so what about Scrappers? 

 

I don't feel like the AT needs a buff on it's own. But maybe something like reverse vigilance... the more people on the team, the more they crit... or maybe some kind of small buff to teammates in melee that increases by the number of allies like a reverse taunt aura?

 

Hell... I dunno. Something to make them interesting teammates.

[Galaxy Brain]

Scrappers are neat in that they are sort of the "mario" AT. However, this means they have no standout attribute or fun minigame to play, though certain sets absolutely shine on them over other Melees, just how other sets shine on stalkers, brutes or tanks.

 

That is sort of a seperate thread, though I would like to see some sort of crit system or the like that Stalkers get in team / combo environments (I always get wonderfully surprised by their crits on controlled targets).

 

 

On a thread related note, is there anywhere that lists the basic HP of enemies at lvl 50? As well as their regen rates / etc? The last comparison I ran had both TW and WM do tons of damage, but I wonder what targets would have even lived vs it lol. If TW runs out of gas at 32 sec of constant use, but can kill stuff in 10 sec, then the downtime between kills makes up for the endurance. 

Edited September 14, 2019 by Galaxy Brain

[Haijinx]

4 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

 

 

I don't feel like the AT needs a buff on it's own. But maybe something like reverse vigilance... the more people on the team, the more they crit... or maybe some kind of small buff to teammates in melee that increases by the number of allies like a reverse taunt aura?

 

Hell... I dunno. Something to make them interesting teammates.

Reliable damage dealers than don't really need any survival support.  Basically like Sentinels.  And tbh Stalkers.

 

The crit thing wouldn't hurt anything though, since stalkers get that. 

 

 

[Infinitum]

15 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

I do think EM nerfs were a fiasco of inexperience. The sets were sort of copy-paste between the ATs, so nerfing the set just had a wide reaching effect. 

Yep to the point it still stings 11 years later. lol

[Galaxy Brain]

14 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Reliable damage dealers than don't really need any survival support.  Basically like Sentinels.  And tbh Stalkers.

 

The crit thing wouldn't hurt anything though, since stalkers get that. 

 

 

The difference with Stalker and Scrapper crits tho is that Scrappers get way more AoEs on average,  so that can be tricky.

 

Hell, imagine TW with 33% crit rate 😛

[Steampunkette]

17 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Reliable damage dealers than don't really need any survival support.  Basically like Sentinels.  And tbh Stalkers.

 

The crit thing wouldn't hurt anything though, since stalkers get that. 

 

 

Sentinels are force multipliers. 25% Damres Debuff means up to 48 players get +25% damage on a target.

 

[Haijinx]

2 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

The difference with Stalker and Scrapper crits tho is that Scrappers get way more AoEs on average,  so that can be tricky.

 

Hell, imagine TW with 33% crit rate 😛

ISH?  The newer sets not so much.  

 

In a lot of the newer sets the Assassin Strike replaces a mid range ST attack.  

 

In the old ones it replaces the PBAOE generally

 

Which is a real balance issue in itself, tbh

 

For examples  Savage Melee, Street Justice, Kinetic Melee, Staff fighting .. all have exactly the same AOE powers between the two. 

Meanwhile Martial Arts, EM get no AOEs at all.  

[Galaxy Brain]

It is weird yeah, but that would be a super change to a lot of stalker sets. In general though, Scrappers currently get more AoE power.