Focused Feedback: Tank Updates

[Replacement]

6 hours ago, Sir Myshkin said:

Also, random fonts are bugged to be larger than they should, and outlined as if comic-graphics are turned on, it's super weird to see pop up.

Upscaled, according to the conversation we had in the beta discord.

[Sylar]

6 hours ago, Sir Myshkin said:

Given I'm in, slash was already prepping to be in the process of, significant testing on Tanks before these changes rolled out, I've spent some follow up time with a specific Shield Defense/Radiation Melee Tank both pre, and post alterations on the Test Server, and I can say that the alterations have made a pretty significant impact, bruising is not missed, and bruising should definitely not be added back into the mix in the realm of trying to patch up hurt feelings given how significant the shift has become in just being made stronger collectively.

 

Also, characters that were created during the  T1/T2 swap are now perma-altered into a T2, no T1 build, doesn't seem to break the game in anyway. Definitely did not attempt to do any kind of respec since testing as built pre-and-post was super important and didn't want to change anything in that regard.

 

Given all that, for those that want, may be curious, or generally would like to dig through some logs on how the changes have impacted things, here is a SD/RM/Soul knocking down a Pylon in 3:20. Previously this took 10:30 without Incarnates or Tank alterations, and it took 13:09 when the Pylons were bugged at 54. This is the stabilized variant of the Pylon, and it absolutely melts to this version of Tanks.

 

 

Also, random fonts are bugged to be larger than they should, and outlined as if comic-graphics are turned on, it's super weird to see pop up.

while that is impressive, try doing that with super strength, the set has been nerfed and will not clear it in the same time i guarantee you, that is the issue i have with the changes.

[Captain Powerhouse]

19 hours ago, Vanden said:

However, if you make them separate powers, that restriction is lifted, and there's more wiggle room to have the animations not be exactly identical.

Not accurate, cast times are heavily tied to power set balance goals and even if such a thing was done the alternative powers would still require either the same cast time.

[Auroxis]

1 hour ago, Sylar said:

while that is impressive, try doing that with super strength, the set has been nerfed and will not clear it in the same time i guarantee you, that is the issue i have with the changes.

What matters is how much -res and procs you have in your build. The more -res then the less negatively affected your solo DPS will be, while the more you rely on damage procs then the more negatively affected your solo DPS would be.

 

I'll re-create my Bio/TW Tanker (pylon record-holder for tankers) for tests later, luckily the build ran Assault from Leadership so that helps get a more accurate gauge of the changes.  I'll also have runs with Defensive Sweep and Crushing Blow in the chain to see the difference (build didn't need to run Crushing Blow before). I expect to see an increase in solo DPS as Bio/TW has a bunch of -res already while not relying too much on procs for DPS, especially with the Crushing Blow chain.

[MunkiLord]

3 minutes ago, Auroxis said:

What matters is how much -res and procs you have in your build. The more -res then the less negatively affected your solo DPS will be, while the more you rely on damage procs then the more negatively affected your solo DPS would be.

 

I'll re-create my Bio/TW Tanker (pylon record-holder for tankers) for tests later, luckily the build ran Assault from Leadership so that helps get a more accurate gauge of the changes.  I'll also have runs with Defensive Sweep and Crushing Blow in the chain to see the difference (build didn't need to run Crushing Blow before). I expect to see an increase in solo DPS as Bio/TW has a bunch of -res already while not relying too much on procs for DPS, especially with the Crushing Blow chain.

That Bio/TW Tanker edged out my DM/SR Scrapper in pylon times. I know my combo isn't the best of the best, but I had near perma Soul Drain close to saturated most of the run. So that time you put up is excellent.

[Vanden]

2 hours ago, Sylar said:

while that is impressive, try doing that with super strength, the set has been nerfed and will not clear it in the same time i guarantee you, that is the issue i have with the changes.

The only "nerf" on test for Super Strength is Foot Stomp's radius decrease on Tankers.

1 hour ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

Not accurate, cast times are heavily tied to power set balance goals and even if such a thing was done the alternative powers would still require either the same cast time.

Well, I meant more that it would be literally possible with the game engine as I understand it. Although if, for example, we were offered a fiery version of Knockout Blow (cast time: 2.23s) as an alternative to Greater Fire Sword (cast time: 2.33s) I don't think the difference would add up to anything meaningful in actual gameplay. But maybe that's why I'm not a powers dev.

[Sylar]

48 minutes ago, Auroxis said:

What matters is how much -res and procs you have in your build. The more -res then the less negatively affected your solo DPS will be, while the more you rely on damage procs then the more negatively affected your solo DPS would be.

 

I'll re-create my Bio/TW Tanker (pylon record-holder for tankers) for tests later, luckily the build ran Assault from Leadership so that helps get a more accurate gauge of the changes.  I'll also have runs with Defensive Sweep and Crushing Blow in the chain to see the difference (build didn't need to run Crushing Blow before). I expect to see an increase in solo DPS as Bio/TW has a bunch of -res already while not relying too much on procs for DPS, especially with the Crushing Blow chain.

again, while that is impressive, you just cant do that with super strength, its been nerfed, its subpar to any other set, you can pick out all the sets you want to solo a pylon, the hardest to do it with is super strength, this is my point which people seem to miss.

[Sylar]

6 minutes ago, Vanden said:

The only "nerf" on test for Super Strength is Foot Stomp's radius decrease on Tankers.

Well, I meant more that it would be literally possible with the game engine as I understand it. Although if, for example, we were offered a fiery version of Knockout Blow (cast time: 2.23s) as an alternative to Greater Fire Sword (cast time: 2.33s) I don't think the difference would add up to anything meaningful in actual gameplay. But maybe that's why I'm not a powers dev.

and its taunt, and its damage, and its inherent, tankers in general are great, its super strength that is nerfed, and everybody knows it.

[Replacement]

5 minutes ago, Sylar said:

and its taunt, and its damage, and its inherent, tankers in general are great, its super strength that is nerfed, and everybody knows it.

How?  I'm legitimately bewildered.

 

Live Footstomp is 15'; Beta should be 16'

Damage should be increased by almost 20%

Target cap should be increased

 

I'm iffier on the Gauntlet parts.  My understanding of old guantlet was it was an aoe "attack" on targets hit.  I always assumed this meant that if an aoe hit 3 people, then that generated 3 separate taunt aoes via gauntlet.  If so, this is no longer the case: the new system aoes for single targets and "pokevokes" anyone hit with aoe attacks.  The tradeoff is it should no longer have an accuracy check.

 

If there's an ongoing conversation about the actual taunt and damage values being lowered, etc, I'm unaware of it.

 

EDIT: OH.  Are you saying in general, not in this patch, that Super Strength compared to other sets is nerfed?  That, I could buy.

Edited September 23, 2019 by Replacement

[Vanden]

3 minutes ago, Sylar said:

and its taunt, and its damage, and its inherent, tankers in general are great, its super strength that is nerfed, and everybody knows it.

Taunt has been buffed, the only changed is the increase to seven targets. Would be useless in a pylon test anyway. The inherent has been buffed, not nerfed, and so has Tanker damage. Those are all Tanker things, not Super Strength things, too. Maybe you should take a moment to actually read up on changes before you go running your mouth?

[Sylar]

1 minute ago, Vanden said:

Taunt has been buffed, the only changed is the increase to seven targets. Would be useless in a pylon test anyway. The inherent has been buffed, not nerfed, and so has Tanker damage. Those are all Tanker things, not Super Strength things, too. Maybe you should take a moment to actually read up on changes before you go running your mouth?

i did, and i looked at the stats, it is a nerf, since super strength under performs against all the other sets, but no i must be running my mouth with this knowledge...

[Vanden]

2 minutes ago, Sylar said:

i did, and i looked at the stats, it is a nerf, since super strength under performs against all the other sets, but no i must be running my mouth with this knowledge...

I'll tell you what, we'll start with something simple. Why don't you tell me one number for Super Strength, just one number, that is lower on beta than it is on live. Excluding Foot Stomp's radius, since we already covered that, and would be useless in a pylon test anyway.

[Sylar]

1 hour ago, Replacement said:

How?  I'm legitimately bewildered.

 

Live Footstomp is 15'; Beta should be 16'

Damage should be increased by almost 20%

Target cap should be increased

 

I'm iffier on the Gauntlet parts.  My understanding of old guantlet was it was an aoe "attack" on targets hit.  I always assumed this meant that if an aoe hit 3 people, then that generated 3 separate taunt aoes via gauntlet.  If so, this is no longer the case: the new system aoes for single targets and "pokevokes" anyone hit with aoe attacks.  The tradeoff is it should no longer have an accuracy check.

 

If there's an ongoing conversation about the actual taunt and damage values being lowered, etc, I'm unaware of it.

 

EDIT: OH.  Are you saying in general, not in this patch, that Super Strength compared to other sets is nerfed?  That, I could buy.

well yes and no, compared to other sets yes it does underperform, what i mean by nerf is that on beta they increased a number of things then reduced them in another patch but the real complaint was the damage cap increase, tankers dont need to do alot of damage, just enough to get by, by increasing their cap it reduces their potential to team ups, i say "reduces" but not negatively depending on where you sit with teaming or solo, or even both, but what i mean is that to reach that cap or even close to it you would have to team up, seems pretty pointless for people who solo, in a newer patch they reduced it down from 600% to 550% , like why? i don't get it, they just need a slight buff not a huge buff, super strength just needs a little work, more so with energy melee tbh.

[Captain Powerhouse]

9 minutes ago, Sylar said:

in a newer patch they reduced it down from 600% to 550% , like why?

 

Because a Tanker at a 550% damage cap can reach 90% the damage of a dmg capped brute in most scenarios, while a Brute that gets fully buffed up for survivability can reach 90% the survivability of a Tanker. I stated this earlier in the thread.

Edited September 23, 2019 by Captain Powerhouse

[Sylar]

3 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

 

Because a Tanker at a 550% damage cap can reach 90% the damage of a dmg capped brute in most scenarios, while a Brute that gets fully buffed up for survivability can reach 90% the survivability of a Tanker. I stated this earlier in the thread.

i didnt read through most of the thread because there is alot of pages, my bad, maybe there might be a way to highlight more important messages to the front of the thread?

 

edit: but can a tanker reach 550% without teaming?

Edited September 23, 2019 by Sylar

[Captain Powerhouse]

Unlikely but not impossible on a temporary basis, that change is specifically targeting team situations.

Edited September 23, 2019 by Captain Powerhouse

[Sylar]

1 minute ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

Unlikely but not impossible on a temporary basis, that change is specifically targeting team situations.

i guess the real question would be , would the damage be significantly higher for a tanker if they attempted to reach the cap? for min/maxers out there who want more damage, im thinking that hopefully their potential would be higher than previously.

[MunkiLord]

35 minutes ago, Sylar said:

i guess the real question would be , would the damage be significantly higher for a tanker if they attempted to reach the cap? for min/maxers out there who want more damage, im thinking that hopefully their potential would be higher than previously.

It's definitely a large buff, but reaching the max potential either takes teammates or using a lot of inspirations. So staying at the new cap for extended periods is going to be very difficult, especially solo.

[Sylar]

9 minutes ago, MunkiLord said:

It's definitely a large buff, but reaching the max potential either takes teammates or using a lot of inspirations. So staying at the new cap for extended periods is going to be very difficult, especially solo.

Ah ok, well if its a good buff then i'm all for it, just not too similar to brutes otherwise it would be pointless really.

[Replacement]

@Sylar

 

Point is, on any given page of this behemoth thread, there's a 40% chance you'll find someone complaining that the damage cap is too high.  That it comes close to actual damage dealer levels, etc.

 

The damage cap is just that: a cap.  You shouldn't be able to reach it solo, you won't reach it in most party configurations, and when you do, it should put you to a level where you still perform at a certain level compared to other ATs with no sudden distortions.  It would be outrageous to balance Tankers to "normally have very low damage, unless they're partying with a Kin."  That would best be defined as an edge-case scenario.

 

This is a balancing act (hence the term balance, I suppose) and it tends to boil down to two parts.

1) Expected and typical play is what you dial things around (this is why Captain Powerhouse has specified several times that testing these changes in fire farms helps him zilch)

2) You plug holes that allow for edge-case scenarios to arise.  If one specific power in the entire game distorts one AT in a way it wouldn't for other ATs, there is an issue.  If one armor set still isn't good enough after these changes (let's call it Stone Armor for accuracy), that's a set that should be looked at as an edge case underperformer.

[Leogunner]

So I figure why Breath of Fire wasn't increased is because it was already 15ft range but was its arc increased at all?  I guess it's difficult to discern between 30 degrees and 60 degrees...I feel like Shadow Maul is easier to hit mutliples. Maybe asking too much to nerf BoF's range for Tanker so that it's either boostable or so widen its arc.

[Sylar]

4 minutes ago, Replacement said:

@Sylar

 

Point is, on any given page of this behemoth thread, there's a 40% chance you'll find someone complaining that the damage cap is too high.  That it comes close to actual damage dealer levels, etc.

 

The damage cap is just that: a cap.  You shouldn't be able to reach it solo, you won't reach it in most party configurations, and when you do, it should put you to a level where you still perform at a certain level compared to other ATs with no sudden distortions.  It would be outrageous to balance Tankers to "normally have very low damage, unless they're partying with a Kin."  That would best be defined as an edge-case scenario.

 

This is a balancing act (hence the term balance, I suppose) and it tends to boil down to two parts.

1) Expected and typical play is what you dial things around (this is why Captain Powerhouse has specified several times that testing these changes in fire farms helps him zilch)

2) You plug holes that allow for edge-case scenarios to arise.  If one specific power in the entire game distorts one AT in a way it wouldn't for other ATs, there is an issue.  If one armor set still isn't good enough after these changes (let's call it Stone Armor for accuracy), that's a set that should be looked at as an edge case underperformer.

ok fair enough, i understand.

[Captain Powerhouse]

Let's stick to the topic, please.

[Captain Powerhouse]

2 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

So I figure why Breath of Fire wasn't increased is because it was already 15ft range but was its arc increased at all?

Cone Radius/Range do not change. Only Sphere Radius change, cones have their Arc increased not their radius.

[Replacement]

2 minutes ago, Sylar said:

ok fair enough, i understand.

You get a Thanks for being willing to engage in the conversation and to listen to another opinion.  Frankly, I needed it to restore some of my faith in humanity.