Add a smidge of +Recharge to inherent Swift?

[TheAdjustor]

2 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

No one is forced to use their optimal attack chain. In fact, the majority of players don't KNOW their optimal attack chain... They just go through the game fighting and having a blast beating up bad guys (Or good guys)

 

 

LOL, Must be nice to be queen in a land of stupid peasants.

 

Just out of curiosity how did you reach this conclusion about the ignorance of the masses?  Somehow I think people (the great mass) are aware of how much damage their abilities do and actually do work to be the most effective players they can be/

[DSorrow]

1 minute ago, TheAdjustor said:

LOL, Must be nice to be queen in a land of stupid peasants.

 

Just out of curiosity how did you reach this conclusion about the ignorance of the masses?  Somehow I think people (the great mass) are aware of how much damage their abilities do and actually do work to be the most effective players they can be/

I think whether or not players use their optimal chains is beside the point. The game doesn't require anything close to an optimal attack chain anywhere so I don't think it's out of line that you'd have to make some specific choices to push the envelope.

[Steampunkette]

4 minutes ago, TheAdjustor said:

My mom before she passed away was very fond of the phrase figures don't lie but liars sure can figure. Oddly enough she was the financial controller for manufacturing firm.

 

Anyway looking at the number

For level 50 characters hasten is the number 1 pool power pick

Speed	Hasten	53,580

 

Tough is a distant number 2 with 35k and change.

 

And oddly enough  that's out of

60,348 of those are Level 50

 

So that's practically 90%

 

Looks like an overwhelming and nearly forced pick to me. What's more it looks like a lot of people as they level decide it's absolutely needed.

 

 

Could be... Could be...

 

Or it could be that as you level even if you take your entire primary and secondary powerset you absolutely HAVE TO take a Pool Power at 24 and another at 30 and most pool powers kinda suck or lend themselves to specific builds while Hasten improves literally every build.

 

Unless you're contending that all 53,000 characters are slamming their heads against the Recharge Limit and trying to get the absolute perfect attack chain... 

 

Huh... More than anything that kind of hints at the fact that Hasten, on it's own, might be too good as a power pool choice, doesn't it? Great Figures, Adjustor!

[Rathulfr]

47 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

*vibrates with the urge to get political*

 

You can't tease me like that, Rath!

Why not?  Turnabout is fair play, after all... *winks and blows a kiss* 🥰

Edited September 25, 2019 by Rathulfr

[TheAdjustor]

5 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

Could be... Could be...

 

Or it could be that as you level even if you take your entire primary and secondary powerset you absolutely HAVE TO take a Pool Power at 24 and another at 30 and most pool powers kinda suck or lend themselves to specific builds while Hasten improves literally every build.

 

Unless you're contending that all 53,000 characters are slamming their heads against the Recharge Limit and trying to get the absolute perfect attack chain... 

 

Huh... More than anything that kind of hints at the fact that Hasten, on it's own, might be too good as a power pool choice, doesn't it? Great Figures, Adjustor!

I never gave mom enough credit for her prowess at BS detection.

 

Quote

Or it could be that as you level even if you take your entire primary and secondary powerset you absolutely HAVE TO take a Pool Power at 24 and another at 30 and most pool powers kinda suck or lend themselves to specific builds while Hasten improves literally every build.

 

Lets see you have gone from virtually nobody takes it to it's something that everyone has to have. What's more in your world people don't understand how to play their builds or when to use their powers but understand hasten is a must have and they know when to use them faster ?

 

P.S. You don't absolutely have to take power pools, You can make a build with just one or two don't think so ? I suggest reading the standardized primary test thread.

 

Quote

Unless you're contending that all 53,000 characters are slamming their heads against the Recharge Limit and trying to get the absolute perfect attack chain... 

 

Have you missed the entirety of this thread where people were talking about how it would be nice to have a good attack chain without being forced into hasten ?

 

[MunkiLord]

36 minutes ago, TheAdjustor said:

Just amplifying in separate post, not sure if this doesn't deserve it's own topic.

 

Just what should you be forced to take run your optimal attack chain ?

 

As things stand people generally wind up taking 3-5 picks to slot LotG +7.5 whether or not the abillities are particularly germane to their build/ concept.  Then the +recharge chase starts up.

 

This is so antithetical to the core of the game which is make your concept and then make it awesome, it's not funny. Having a way to get what you need just through power picks would be something that would breathe a lot of fresh air into the game.

I'm going to disagree here to an extent. I'm not opposed to making things better for the casual player that, in general that's a good thing. But making such sacrifices and tweaking my build to eak out 10% extra recharge, or DPS, or 2% defense is something I enjoy immensely about this game. So I would be opposed to something that overly simplifies it.

[TheAdjustor]

6 minutes ago, MunkiLord said:

I'm going to disagree here to an extent. I'm not opposed to making things better for the casual player that, in general that's a good thing. But making such sacrifices and tweaking my build to eak out 10% extra recharge, or DPS, or 2% defense is something I enjoy immensely about this game. So I would be opposed to something that overly simplifies it.

Fair enough I can understand and empathize with that position. Personally (and that is a purely personal position) I favor more build diversity. From personal experience you have whole ATs that seem to be slaves to hasten. Blasters and Dominators are very good examples. Domination being such a defining power, and blasters if they want to any kind damage at all are chained to aim, build up and hasten.

Edited September 25, 2019 by TheAdjustor

[Hero Star]

23 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

No one is forced to use their optimal attack chain. In fact, the majority of players don't KNOW their optimal attack chain... They just go through the game fighting and having a blast beating up bad guys (Or good guys)

 

But the Optimal Attack Chain is forever going to be be held to the limits of what can, currently, be done. Because the absolute best Single Target Attack Chain for Super Strength would be Knockout Blow with no Cooldown. Just infinite punches over and over and over again doing 600+ DPS.  And the best SS AoE would just be infinite Footstomps one after another 'til everything is dead with no cooldown.

 

Not that I think that's where this is going. Just trying to illustrate that the current "Optimal" is only the best 'til the next big change, regardless of what it is. Optimal is only Optimal in relation to what can currently e done, and every change alters the optimal.

 

Thank God no one Advocates for the removal of ED so there's no way my previous example could ever hap-

Oh.

 

Yeah... No. /Jranger to both. Let's start bringing stuff to parity through buffs and nerfs to get 'Ballpark Balance' and then we can revisit this.

It wasn't a serious proposal lol. I just think adding recharge to swift is a bit silly. I'm glad most people are just having fun playing the game without perfect attack chains etc. I think perfect balance is highly overrated and a game that caters to a minority of min/maxers is a bad idea.

[Steampunkette]

Just now, Hero Star said:

It wasn't a serious proposal lol. I just think adding recharge to swift is a bit silly. I'm glad most people are just having fun playing the game without perfect attack chains etc. I think perfect balance is highly overrated and a game that caters to a minority of min/maxers is a bad idea.

I agree, fully. And I was using your unserious proposal as a joke. Before you posted it I had Rath's "Half Joking" ED removal comment in the same spot. You just gave me a better set up for the joke!

 

Perfect Balance is impossible. Ballpark Balance is possible and should always be the goal. Catering to the minmax minority is... yeah. A bad idea. The amount of elitism it encourages can destroy a community.

[MunkiLord]

23 minutes ago, TheAdjustor said:

Fair enough I can understand and empathize with that position. Personally (and that is a purely personal position) I favor more build diversity. From personal experience you have whole ATs that seem to be slaves to hasten. Blasters and Dominators are very good examples. Domination being such a defining power, and blasters if they want to any kind damage at all are chained to aim, build up and hasten.

It's a balance. Build diversity is good and people that like tweaking the get just a bit more out of builds is good too. I get some people want to feel decent or good or uber powerful without feeling they need certain powers, and I support changes that will appeal to the broader audience. I just don't want it to get to the point in which Mid's is worthless. Not that this proposed change would get us there or put us on the path that to that. Really just wanted to throw out my preferences. Plus some changes can make better builds more accessible to more people while giving me other ways to maximize performance.

 

Though this isn't my business and nobody asked for my input(because that has every stopped me), I don't think Steampunkette is bs'ing anyone. I've disagreed with her plenty over the years, so this is something I have experience with.

Edited September 25, 2019 by MunkiLord

[TheAdjustor]

1 minute ago, MunkiLord said:

It's a balance. Build diversity is good and people that like tweaking the get just a bit more out of builds is good too. I get some people want to feel decent or good or uber powerful without feeling they need certain powers, and I support changes that will appeal to the broader audience. I just don't want it to get to the point in which Mid's is worthless. Not that this proposed change would get us there or put us on the path that to that. Really just wanted to throw out my preferences. Plus some changes can make better builds more accessible to more people while giving me other ways to maximize performance.

 

Though this isn't my business and nobody asked for my input(because that has every stopped me), I don't think Steampunkette is bs'ing anyone. I've disagreed with her plenty over the years, so this is something I have experience with.

There's a big difference between BS and BSing someone. I think she just took a position without really thinking it through and then started looking for things to support it without actually looking closely while discounting anything that might undercut that position.

 

It's common behavior. Everyone does it occasionally or even more often.

 

[Rathulfr]

29 minutes ago, MunkiLord said:

I don't think Steampunkette is bs'ing anyone. I've disagreed with her plenty over the years, so this is something I have experience with.

Now I'm jealous. 😫

[Steampunkette]

31 minutes ago, TheAdjustor said:

There's a big difference between BS and BSing someone. I think she just took a position without really thinking it through and then started looking for things to support it without actually looking closely while discounting anything that might undercut that position.

 

It's common behavior. Everyone does it occasionally or even more often.

 

Look at my first post in this thread.

 

While I was against adding a global 10% recharge rate to everyone, I was down with the idea of adding some Recharge Mechanics to other parts of the Superspeed Power Pool. Specifically because it makes thematic sense that someone who runs at superspeed -reacts- at superspeed.

 

But over the course of the thread my position changed. And when you presented the hard numbers of how overwhelmingly big Hasten is at high end, where it's a largely mandatory power, it made me completely reconsider my position... It's not that a 10% global recharge bonus would be a bad thing. It's that Hasten is -so- close to mandatory that is the bigger problem.

 

My positions in this thread have changed from "More recharge isn't a problem, but we should make it thematic rather than global" to "Holy shit look at how overwhelmingly popular this +recharge power is, far beyond it's peers to the point where it's perceived as mandatory... shit. This is bad."

 

I didn't "Pick a position and then aim for confirmation bias to prop myself up". I took a very loose position and then saw more and more evidence that that position was in the wrong and chose a much different, and a bit harder line? Position.

Edited September 25, 2019 by Steampunkette

[Rathulfr]

Just now, Steampunkette said:

Look at my first post in this thread.

 

While I was against adding a global 10% recharge rate to everyone, I was down with the idea of adding some Recharge Mechanics to other parts of the Superspeed Power Pool. Specifically because it makes thematic sense that someone who runs at superspeed -reacts- at superspeed.

 

But over the course of the thread my position changed. And when you presented the hard numbers of how overwhelmingly big Hasten is at high end, where it's a largely mandatory power, it made me completely reconsider my position... It's not that a 10% global recharge bonus would be a bad thing. It's that Hasten is -so- close to mandatory that is the bigger problem.

 

My positions in this thread have changed from "More recharge isn't a problem, but we should make it thematic rather than global" to "Holy shit look at how overwhelmingly popular this +recharge power is, far beyond it's peers to the point where it's perceived as mandatory... shit. This is bad."

 

I'm glad my crazy and selfish suggestion sparked the discussion and had some impact, even if it does get shot down.  Cool!

 

[Steampunkette]

1 minute ago, Rathulfr said:

 

I'm glad my crazy and selfish suggestion sparked the discussion and had some impact, even if it does get shot down.  Cool!

 

Hilariously, your suggestion ultimately lead to me suggesting a larger global recharge rate buff to everyone than you initially suggested, but the removal of Hasten as the counterbalance.

[Rathulfr]

Just now, Steampunkette said:

Hilariously, your suggestion ultimately lead to me suggesting a larger global recharge rate buff to everyone than you initially suggested, but the removal of Hasten as the counterbalance.

Either way works for me.  Thanks for being a good sport.

[TheAdjustor]

3 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

Look at my first post in this thread.

 

While I was against adding a global 10% recharge rate to everyone, I was down with the idea of adding some Recharge Mechanics to other parts of the Superspeed Power Pool. Specifically because it makes thematic sense that someone who runs at superspeed -reacts- at superspeed.

 

But over the course of the thread my position changed. And when you presented the hard numbers of how overwhelmingly big Hasten is at high end, where it's a largely mandatory power, it made me completely reconsider my position... It's not that a 10% global recharge bonus would be a bad thing. It's that Hasten is -so- close to mandatory that is the bigger problem.

 

My positions in this thread have changed from "More recharge isn't a problem, but we should make it thematic rather than global" to "Holy shit look at how overwhelmingly popular this +recharge power is, far beyond it's peers to the point where it's perceived as mandatory... shit. This is bad."

 

I didn't "Pick a position and then aim for confirmation bias to prop myself up". I took a very loose position and then saw more and more evidence that that position was in the wrong and chose a much different, and a bit harder line? Position.

I too have no objection to marginal changes to things nobody uses or is ever likely to use.  I think you could probably make flurry a zero end use power as well.

[MetaVileTerror]

Just 'cause this thread got pretty overshadowed by the new one, I want to reiterate that I think the premise of giving scaling +Recharge at the exclusion of Hasten is worth investigating.  It's bugging the hell out of me, but I'm almost certain that there's a mechanic already in the game code as-is that allows what I'm proposing.  

 

Would one of the technically-minded coder types be able to verify?  

I know there are conditional effects in Powers (ie:  Brawl just does damage, unless you also have Boxing and Kick, then it has extra features!).  

Is it not possible for conditional effects to work in reverse?  ie:  An Auto Power grants +x% Bonus, unless you also have Y or Z Power, at which point that bonus is suppressed.

[Rathulfr]

1 minute ago, MetaVileTerror said:

this thread got pretty overshadowed by the new one

[Rathulfr]

So it looks like everyone is still pissed of about @Steampunkette's thread.  Does this mean that nobody wants to buff Swift with a smidge of +recharge?  It still seems to me to be a good, simple, and easy idea.  Especially if we just leave Hasten alone (apparently).

 

[TheAdjustor]

26 minutes ago, Rathulfr said:

So it looks like everyone is still pissed of about @Steampunkette's thread.  Does this mean that nobody wants to buff Swift with a smidge of +recharge?  It still seems to me to be a good, simple, and easy idea.  Especially if we just leave Hasten alone (apparently).

 

I have said this before, I'd like to see another path with costs (not just a giveaway) that provides an autopower that provides significant amounts of recharge. (20-35%) Seems about the right amount. The 20% quickness powers that are out there are a bit underwhelming. I take them but only because they are zero slot picks and I can occasionally slot uniques in them.

 

It would be very nice to have the chance to get my recharge into the area I'd like it without taking hasten or bending my entire build to get that 150% or so number.

Edited September 26, 2019 by TheAdjustor

[Rathulfr]

50 minutes ago, TheAdjustor said:

I have said this before, I'd like to see another path with costs (not just a giveaway) that provides an autopower that provides significant amounts of recharge. (20-35%) Seems about the right amount. The 20% quickness powers that are out there are a bit underwhelming. I take them but only because they are zero slot picks and I can occasionally slot uniques in them.

 

It would be very nice to have the chance to get my recharge into the area I'd like it without taking hasten or bending my entire build to get that 150% or so number.

 

How would we accomplish that without disrupting the existing power sets?  We already know how well any idea that involves modifying Hasten in any way makes people lose their sh*t completely.  I can imagine the same being true if we suggested modifying any other pools (not even mentioning primaries/secondaries), aside from simply tacking on +Recharge to one of them. 

 

So if we're going to tack on +Recharge anywhere without upsetting anyone else's apple cart, it seems to me that Swift is the most likely candidate.  The only other option would be to touch every other power individually to reduce their base recharge rates, which I think would be even more chaotic/unpredictable, and require a massive rebalancing effort.

 

The fact that so many builds include Hasten indicates that players feel like their builds need more recharge.  The fact that suggesting any change to Hasten was received as the equivalent of slaughtering a sacred cow indicates that far too many players depend on it for far too much.  It seems that particular genie is out of the lamp for good, so there's no way anyone (myself included) wants to consider anything less than 70% base recharge (slottable/enhanceable to perma-Hasten, with boosters).  All that said, I don't see any path that costs either too much or nothing at all.

 

Which leads us back to "what problem are we trying to solve?"  The problem is that I have builds that have Hasten but don't really need 70% more recharge (diminishing returns), and lack other benefits that I would prefer to have but cannot take because Hasten takes the power pick and 2 or 3 slots.  If I could get just 10-20% more recharge, I could drop Hasten entirely on those builds.

 

Yeah, that's just me whining that I want more candy.  I never claimed to be altruistic.  In my very first post, I made it clear that I'm crazy and selfish.  I was just hoping that a few more people would agree to whine with me.  (And I certainly didn't expect anyone to burn down the forums over Hasten.)

 

Edited September 26, 2019 by Rathulfr
typos/phrasing

[TheAdjustor]

1 minute ago, Rathulfr said:

 

How would we accomplish that without disrupting the existing power sets?  We already know how well any idea that involves modifying Hasten in any way makes people lose their sh*t completely.  I can imagine the same being true if we suggested modifying any other pools (not even mentioning primaries/secondaries), aside from simply tacking on +Recharge to one of them. 

 

So if we're going to tack on +Recharge anywhere without upsetting anyone else's apple cart, it seems to me that Swift is the most likely candidate.  The only other option would be to touch every other power individually to reduce their base recharge rates, which I think would be even more chaotic/unpredictable, and require a massive rebalancing effort.

 

The fact that so many builds include Hasten indicates that players feel like their builds need more recharge.  The fact that suggesting any change to Hasten was received as the equivalent of slaughtering a sacred cow indicates that far too many players depend on it for far too much.  It seems that particular genie is out of the lamp for good, so there's no way anyone (myself included) wants to consider anything less than 70% base recharge (slottable/enhanceable to 99%, with boosters).  All that said, I don't see any path that costs either too much or nothing at all.

 

Which leads us back to "what problem are we trying to solve?"  The problem is that I have builds that have Hasten but don't really need 70% to 99% more recharge (diminishing returns), and lack other benefits that I would prefer to have but cannot take because Hasten takes the power pick and 2 or 3 slots.  If I could get just 10-20% more recharge, I could drop Hasten entirely on those builds.

 

Yeah, that's just me whining that I want more candy.  I never claimed to be altruistic.  In my very first post, I made it clear that I'm crazy and selfish.  I was just hoping that a few more people would agree to whine with me.  (I didn't expect anyone to burn down the forums over Hasten, I must admit.)

Simplest way would be to include an auto power in the speed pool that adds plus recharge.  The only downside is that it would make taking the speed pool even more popular.  I am not at all worried  about it being OP. Recharge self nerfs.

 

Just for example a power with 10 second recharge time 60% recharge slotted under 0% global recharge bonus, 30% global recharge, 70% global recharge and 100% global recharge

  0%  global rech : 6.25 seconds

 30%  global rech : 5.26 seconds

 70%  global rech : 4.3 seconds

100%  global rech : 3.8 seconds

 

Quote

Which leads us back to "what problem are we trying to solve?"  The problem is that I have builds that have Hasten but don't really need 70% to 99% more recharge (diminishing returns), and lack other benefits that I would prefer to have but cannot take because Hasten takes the power pick and 2 or 3 slots.  If I could get just 10-20% more recharge, I could drop Hasten entirely on those builds.

 

If I understand this correctly, I am mostly in agreement with it.  I have builds that don't need the full hasten effect or particularly want the maintenance and end hit of hasten. I also have character concepts that I just don't build because of what is needed to bring them into a decent level of performance. Not real happy with where dominators are currently (just a personal thing but there it is).  I also feel this way about Time where I feel like I am chained to a treadmill of boost power farsight chronoshift hasten.

 

Having some other ways to play these would be welcome.

 

[EyeLuvBooks]

As much as I'd love more Free Recharge, I'm going to agree with others that have said that it should be a conscious pick. Mainly because people that already have Perma-Hasten could skip it if they choose and those that want to skip Hasten would pick the alternative instead.

 

How about an auto-power that scales (loved that idea when I saw it) as well as having Sprint-like slots to put in Running, Jumping and Flight Enhancers? The Recharge part would be unenhancable and have one slot for the Movement Enhancers. Stretch it out so it starts at 1% at lvl 4 (or whenever Pool Powers unlock now) and tops out at 5% at level 50.

[Rathulfr]

On 9/26/2019 at 3:22 PM, TheAdjustor said:

Simplest way would be to include an auto power in the speed pool that adds plus recharge.  The only downside is that it would make taking the speed pool even more popular.  I am not at all worried  about it being OP. Recharge self nerfs.

 

No, the simplest way (as I've pointed out), is to tack on a smidge more recharge to an existing power (such as Swift, which is thematically appropriate) that's not in the Speed pool.  Adding an auto power to the Speed pool just makes the problem worse, not better.  Everyone would simply take both that and Hasten from Speed, making Speed all the more entrenched in builds where it doesn't belong.  I'm trying to get rid of both Hasten and the Speed pool, so I can take something else (such as Combat Jumping or Stealth).

 

(edit) I just thought of another wacky idea that isn't quite as "free" as adding +recharge to Swift.  What if we added +5% recharge to Combat Jumping, Hover, Maneuvers, Stealth, and Weave?  That wouldn't help as much as a global 20% across the board to everyone, but it would sure help me.  LOL  😋

 

Edited September 27, 2019 by Rathulfr