DELETE Hasten, SLIGHTLY ALTER all enemies, SLIGHTY ALTER all player powers

[Steampunkette]

1 minute ago, DR_Mechano said:

Notice how I mentioned I didn't mind your compromise that keeps things the same but distributes the recharge differently. However balancing changes like Energy Melee or Regen (which also only involve changing power numbers) are way more important. Sets that are considered the dogs dinner due to previous overnerfing need to be worked on (since it's kind of agreed that both those sets need major buffs) more than Hasten which...currently...apart from what you and Bio, doesn't really seem to be a problem...like...at all...

The fact that 83% of level 50 characters use Hasten shows that it's either overpowered or all of it's contemporaries are underpowered, Mechano.

 

It's the single most extreme outlier among power pool choices there is. Nearly -everyone- takes Hasten because it's too good to pass up.

 

I disagree that fixing Energy Melee or Regen is 'More Important'. Those powersets have a significantly lower impact on the game's population than Hasten does. Hasten is used by every single archetype, where EM and Regen are used by 3. It's not really comparable.

[Sniktch]

From the 2014 AMA:

 

Q) OK, *one* last not-really-Lore question then I’m done. You step through a time warp back to ‘04. Axe the Fitness pool or keep it? How about Hasten? (@Interface)

A) Sean McCann (Dr. Aeon) - C) Buff the heck out of Pummel. (also, I’m not a powers designer)

A) Matt Miller (Positron) Axe the fitness pool. Hasten has a hilarious history. In Alpha it was way too good. If I recall correctly, there was no crash. When we added some drawbacks to it, the players went ballistic. I still remember one player claiming that it was “completely worthless now”.

I would always, always, keep that player’s comment in mind whenever we would downgrade other abusive powers and players would complain. A small part of me would always think “maybe it’s not enough?”

A) John Hegner (Protean) - Fitness seemed to remind me of making a Palladium character. How everyone seemed to be a gymnast/boxer/track&field star/professional lawn dart champion, etc, because the bonuses were just too good to pass up. I always felt like choosing your tertiary power pool should have been like D&D feats. The unique spice to make your Fire Tank stand out from the Fire Tank next to him. Instead, some pools were almost universally ignored, while others, like Fitness, were pretty much required.

A) Tim Sweeney (Black Scorp) Barring any other changes, making them more like feats or utility powers from D&D 4e would have been a nice move. Several powersets suffered because thematically correct powers were in the 9, though failed to fulfill a clear mission.

 

Section bolded, italicized, underlined for emphasis.

[Haijinx]

1 minute ago, TheAdjustor said:

Maybe. I can see how that could be made, but there's lots of other things that would need to changed maybe even the whole concept of recharge in the game.

 

That said, If you are going to say hasten is too good, I gotta say the ability to softcap defense while hardcapping resistance is completely bonkers by comparison. You can literally build a character with hundreds maybe low thousands the amount of survivability of character that hasn't gone that route.

True, there are multiple areas like this.

 

I'd be glad to try a game where they made sweeping changes to balance and mechanics. Voluntarily.

 

Just not those same changes to the established game.

 

That's why i mentioned COH2 

[MunkiLord]

2 minutes ago, TheAdjustor said:

 

Vox populi vox dei.

 

adfigens illud cruci

[Haijinx]

3 minutes ago, Sniktch said:

From the 2014 AMA:

 

Q) OK, *one* last not-really-Lore question then I’m done. You step through a time warp back to ‘04. Axe the Fitness pool or keep it? How about Hasten? (@Interface)

A) Sean McCann (Dr. Aeon) - C) Buff the heck out of Pummel. (also, I’m not a powers designer)

A) Matt Miller (Positron) Axe the fitness pool. Hasten has a hilarious history. In Alpha it was way too good. If I recall correctly, there was no crash. When we added some drawbacks to it, the players went ballistic. I still remember one player claiming that it was “completely worthless now”.

I would always, always, keep that player’s comment in mind whenever we would downgrade other abusive powers and players would complain. A small part of me would always think “maybe it’s not enough?”

A) John Hegner (Protean) - Fitness seemed to remind me of making a Palladium character. How everyone seemed to be a gymnast/boxer/track&field star/professional lawn dart champion, etc, because the bonuses were just too good to pass up. I always felt like choosing your tertiary power pool should have been like D&D feats. The unique spice to make your Fire Tank stand out from the Fire Tank next to him. Instead, some pools were almost universally ignored, while others, like Fitness, were pretty much required.

A) Tim Sweeney (Black Scorp) Barring any other changes, making them more like feats or utility powers from D&D 4e would have been a nice move. Several powersets suffered because thematically correct powers were in the 9, though failed to fulfill a clear mission.

 

Section bolded, italicized, underlined for emphasis.

Awesome Heroes unlimited example in this.  

 

We had a house rule limiting how many sport skills you could take.  

 

Which meant everyone just took boxing since it was the best one.

 

Basically exactly like Hasten. 

[DR_Mechano]

9 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

The fact that 83% of level 50 characters use Hasten shows that it's either overpowered or all of it's contemporaries are underpowered, Mechano.

 

It's the single most extreme outlier among power pool choices there is. Nearly -everyone- takes Hasten because it's too good to pass up.

 

I disagree that fixing Energy Melee or Regen is 'More Important'. Those powersets have a significantly lower impact on the game's population than Hasten does. Hasten is used by every single archetype, where EM and Regen are used by 3. It's not really comparable.

Yes they have significantly low impact...because they're fecking awful AND EVERYBODY KNOWS THEY'RE AWFUL...which if you buff them...means more people might play them..which means they may make more of an impact. 

 

And yes...all of it's contemporaries ARE underpowered...apart from like Tough, Weave, Combat Jumping, Hover and Maneuvers...those are fine as is. The presence pool is just crap, the Medicine pool is just crap (mostly), the teleport powers are well, mostly crap (IIRC it's the least used travel power), the Sorcery pool is...actually not bad but still kind of crap...just not used as much. Stealth is actually not bad if you can it it in.

 

That's the thing Hasten is useful to everyone, Presence is not useful too everyone, Medicine is not useful too everyone, Sorcery isn't useful too everyone. What sets are useful too everyone?

Fighting, Leadership, Leaping, Flight, Speed and Stealth.

 

So yeah, you know what, buff the other pools to actually give something GOOD, give them something to compete with Hasten as a major pool pick!

Edited September 26, 2019 by DR_Mechano

[TheAdjustor]

4 minutes ago, DR_Mechano said:

Yes they have significantly low impact...because they're fecking awful AND EVERYBODY KNOWS THEY'RE AWFUL...which if you buff them...means more people might play them..which means they may make more of an impact. 

 

Quoted for truth man.  speaking of that I'd love to see how many people slot boxing with anything but a kinetic combat set. Most of the power pools are just plain awful and even the ones in the "good" pools are pretty bad.

Edited September 26, 2019 by TheAdjustor

[Haijinx]

I always get hasten, combat jumping, tough and weave.  All of them.  Those are givens to me. 

 

Which sure, points to game design issues.  Somebody should have addressed those a long time ago.  Back before they became ingrained in how people play and build.

 

 

[Sniktch]

4 minutes ago, DR_Mechano said:

Yes they have significantly low impact...because they're fecking awful AND EVERYBODY KNOWS THEY'RE AWFUL...which if you buff them...means more people might play them..which means they may make more of an impact. 

 

And yes...all of it's contemporaries ARE underpowered...apart from like Tough, Weave, Combat Jumping, Hover and Maneuvers...those are fine as is. The presence pool is just crap, the Medicine pool is just crap (mostly), the teleport powers are well, mostly crap (IIRC it's the least used travel power), the Sorcery pool is...actually not bad but still kind of crap...just not used as much. Stealth is actually not bad if you can it it in.

 

That's the thing Hasten is useful to everyone, Presence is not useful too everyone, Medicine is not useful too everyone, Sorcery isn't useful too everyone. What sets are useful too everyone?

Fighting, Leadership, Leaping, Flight, Speed and Stealth.

 

So yeah, you know what, buff the other pools to actually give something GOOD, give them something to compete with Hasten as a major pool pick!

 

 

Ok - WHAT can you give other pools that would be 'worth' a 70% global recharge buff that wouldn't blow the doors off the game, especially considering we've got multiple people here threatening to leave over any change at all to that buff?  Seriously think about it from that angle - if you can't give any other pool something equal, not even better, without blowing holes in difficulty curves that are already wobbly, then maybe something is wrong.

[Haijinx]

3 minutes ago, TheAdjustor said:

Quoted for truth man.  speaking of that I'd love to see how many people slot boxing with anything but a kinetic combat set. Most of the power pools are just plain awful and even the ones in the "good" pools are pretty bad.

I was looking at the superior blistering cold 2 slot for 15% slow resist, lol

 

Same basic idea though.

[MunkiLord]

4 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

I always get hasten, combat jumping, tough and weave.  All of them.  Those are givens to me. 

 

Which sure, points to game design issues.  Somebody should have addressed those a long time ago.  Back before they became ingrained in how people play and build.

 

 

Me too. Combat Jumping getting removed would be my deal breaker change for any version of City of Heroes. I hate playing without it.

[TheAdjustor]

2 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

I always get hasten, combat jumping, tough and weave.  All of them.  Those are givens to me. 

 

Which sure, points to game design issues.  Somebody should have addressed those a long time ago.  Back before they became ingrained in how people play and build.

 

 

I am in the same place with the addition maneuvers.  Willing to bet those 5 are the single most popular pool powers by a wide margin.

 

There's lots of things that could be done to fix that though.  Buffing the defense sets so they didn't need Maneuvers and Weave as much, improving aid self so it didn't have an interrupt (don't care if you have to nerf the other effects a heal that doesn't work is pointless). Don't know what you would do for the presence pool. Sorcery would maybe make rune of protection something that could be permed (once again don't care if you have nerf other parts of it)

[Haijinx]

6 minutes ago, Sniktch said:

 

 

Ok - WHAT can you give other pools that would be 'worth' a 70% global recharge buff that wouldn't blow the doors off the game, especially considering we've got multiple people here threatening to leave over any change at all to that buff?  Seriously think about it from that angle - if you can't give any other pool something equal, not even better, without blowing holes in difficulty curves that are already wobbly, then maybe something is wrong.

The solution is definitely not buff other pools to match hasten levels.

 

 

[Haijinx]

1 minute ago, TheAdjustor said:

I am in the same place with the addition maneuvers.  Willing to bet those 5 are the single most popular pool powers by a wide margin.

 

There's lots of things that could be done to fix that though.  Buffing the defense sets so they didn't need Maneuvers and Weave as much, improving aid self so it didn't have an interrupt (don't care if you have to nerf the other effects a heal that doesn't work is pointless). Don't know what you would do for the presence pool. Sorcery would maybe make rune of protection something that could be permed (once again don't care if you have nerf other parts of it)

Id be more inclined to leave the current pools alone, and work on the partly developed ones.

 

There's enough novelty in those that people will want some of them.

[Steampunkette]

16 minutes ago, DR_Mechano said:

Yes they have significantly low impact...because they're fecking awful AND EVERYBODY KNOWS THEY'RE AWFUL...which if you buff them...means more people might play them..which means they may make more of an impact. 

 

And yes...all of it's contemporaries ARE underpowered...apart from like Tough, Weave, Combat Jumping, Hover and Maneuvers...those are fine as is. The presence pool is just crap, the Medicine pool is just crap (mostly), the teleport powers are well, mostly crap (IIRC it's the least used travel power), the Sorcery pool is...actually not bad but still kind of crap...just not used as much. Stealth is actually not bad if you can it it in.

 

That's the thing Hasten is useful to everyone, Presence is not useful too everyone, Medicine is not useful too everyone, Sorcery isn't useful too everyone. What sets are useful too everyone?

Fighting, Leadership, Leaping, Flight, Speed and Stealth.

 

So yeah, you know what, buff the other pools to actually give something GOOD, give them something to compete with Hasten as a major pool pick!

The problem being that pool powers are SUPPOSED to be kinda bad. They fill out your style, rather than define your play experience.

 

They're not supposed to be something huge that you would forgo a primary powerset or even secondary powerset pick to choose. That's why even as "Good" as tough and weave are they're not as good as any Scrapper's defense or resistance toggles.

 

"Buffing the other pools to be good" won't help unless they also provide globally big benefits that would make someone consider not taking Hasten to take one of them, instead. And that's a -huge- leap on the power curve. Particularly since they wouldn't be mutually exclusive.

 

People would just take Hasten -and- three other 'Character ability redefining' powers instead of just Hasten.

[DR_Mechano]

12 minutes ago, Sniktch said:

 

 

Ok - WHAT can you give other pools that would be 'worth' a 70% global recharge buff that wouldn't blow the doors off the game, especially considering we've got multiple people here threatening to leave over any change at all to that buff?  Seriously think about it from that angle - if you can't give any other pool something equal, not even better, without blowing holes in difficulty curves that are already wobbly, then maybe something is wrong.

Firstly the easiest one I can think of, is you make the power pools act like the travel power pools. You don't need the first or second to pick up the third or fourth. You can get Tough and Weave without taking the crappy melee power that is boxing or kick. I don't need to take stimulant to take Aid Self. This opens up more diversity on builds for a start.

 

Then I'd work on making those powers useful. Aid self, for example, would have the interrupt removed, making it more useful for ATs without defense and heals, that's just one idea off the top of my head.

Edited September 26, 2019 by DR_Mechano

[Sniktch]

1 minute ago, DR_Mechano said:

Firstly the easiest one I can think of, is you make the power pools act like the travel power pools. You don't need the first or second to pick up the third or fourth. You can get Tough and Weave without taking the crappy melee power that is boxing or kick. I don't need to take stimulant to take Aid Self. This opens up more diversity on builds for a start.

*eyebrow*  You'd trade Hasten for Aid Self?

[TheAdjustor]

1 minute ago, Steampunkette said:

The problem being that pool powers are SUPPOSED to be kinda bad. They fill out your style, rather than define your play experience.

 

They're not supposed to be something huge that you would forgo a primary powerset or even secondary powerset pick to choose. That's why even as "Good" as tough and weave are they're not as good as any Scrapper's defense or resistance toggles.

 

"Buffing the other pools to be good" won't help unless they also provide globally big benefits that would make someone consider not taking Hasten to take one of them, instead. And that's a -huge- leap on the power curve. Particularly since they wouldn't be mutually exclusive.

 

People would just take Hasten -and- three other 'Character ability redefining' powers instead of just Hasten.

You can only pick 4. So yes 3 and hasten would be mutually exclusive with other power pool picks. I doubt I would ever take medicine on a squishy even if the interrupt were removed, because it's far too likely they would be mezzed when they wanted to use it.

[nihilii]

Is this the jump the shark moment for S&F? Starting to feel like some of you are playing a game inside the game where the goal is to make increasingly absurd and eye-catching suggestions. 😛

[Snakebit]

Isnt calling for a hasten nerf while nerfing recharge for 90% of players.

 

No.

[DR_Mechano]

4 minutes ago, Sniktch said:

*eyebrow*  You'd trade Hasten for Aid Self?

No I'm saying it would be a start towards balancing things.

[Haijinx]

Hasten is more powerful than any other +recharge power in any set.   Primary or Secondary.

 

Definitely was a bad idea lol.  

 

Those playtesters back in 2002 should have sniffed less glue.

 

Oh well.  

Edited September 26, 2019 by Haijinx

[Sniktch]

1 minute ago, DR_Mechano said:

No I'm saying it would be a start towards balancing things.

I'm not asking for 'a start'.  I'm asking what SINGLE POWER can each of those other pools have that could even possibly be comparable to Hasten, without shattering what little risk/reward balance is left?  What single aspect of the character would it affect?  How big?  How frequently?  How much END cost?  If you wouldn't trade Hasten for a no-interrupt Aid Self AND NOTHING ELSE, even if it was a one-dip, then it's not 'big enough' to match yet.  How fast would it have to animate, how much would its base heal have to be, how much END would you consider 'low enough'?  And if it gets 'good enough' to be a fair trade for Hasten, how badly does that fuck over primary or secondary click self-heals?

[Jeuraud]

Hasten was always broken, and should have been tweaked before release.

I'm voting

Yes

for the OP's updated idea for Hasten.

[Steampunkette]

17 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Hasten is more powerful than any other +recharge power in any set.   Primary or Secondary.

 

Definitely was a bad idea lol.  

 

Those playtesters back in 2002 should have sniffed less glue.

 

Oh well.  

The playtesters in 2002 through 2004 didn't have IO Set Bonuses to contend with.

 

In a Vaccum, without set bonuses, Hasten is fine. It's about a 20% overall passive recharge bonus like Quickness from Super Reflexes. Only it's not going to have any effect on most melee attack powers outside of it's 2 minute window, and it's really only absurdly long recharge time powers that take full advantage of it.

 

It's only now, with Set Bonuses, that Hasten has become the big bad that it is.

Edited September 26, 2019 by Steampunkette