DELETE Hasten, SLIGHTLY ALTER all enemies, SLIGHTY ALTER all player powers

[TheAdjustor]

Just now, Steampunkette said:

The playtesters in 2002 through 2004 didn't have IO Set Bonuses to contend with.

 

In a Vaccum, without set bonuses, Hasten is find. It's about a 20% overall passive recharge bonus like Quickness from Super Reflexes. Only it's not going to have any effect on most melee attack powers outside of it's 2 minute window, and it's really only absurdly long recharge time powers that take full advantage of it.

 

It's only now, with Set Bonuses, that Hasten has become the big bad that it is.

Sorry hasten in beta was permanent 70% + recharge. They didn't need set bonuses just 6 SOs

[macskull]

2 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

The playtesters in 2002 through 2004 didn't have IO Set Bonuses to contend with.

 

In a Vaccum, without set bonuses, Hasten is fine. It's about a 20% overall passive recharge bonus like Quickness from Super Reflexes. Only it's not going to have any effect on most melee attack powers outside of it's 2 minute window, and it's really only absurdly long recharge time powers that take full advantage of it.

 

It's only now, with Set Bonuses, that Hasten has become the big bad that it is.

Well, the developers on live repeatedly said the game was balanced around SOs, so...

[Steampunkette]

1 minute ago, macskull said:

Well, the developers on live repeatedly said the game was balanced around SOs, so...

And it still would be with the proposed change. With ultimately no real difference to IO builds. But a psychological change that weakens the power without weakening the character, overall.

[Haijinx]

3 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

The playtesters in 2002 through 2004 didn't have IO Set Bonuses to contend with.

 

In a Vaccum, without set bonuses, Hasten is fine. It's about a 20% overall passive recharge bonus like Quickness from Super Reflexes. Only it's not going to have any effect on most melee attack powers outside of it's 2 minute window, and it's really only absurdly long recharge time powers that take full advantage of it.

 

It's only now, with Set Bonuses, that Hasten has become the big bad that it is.

Back then they could 6 slot hasten with no ED.  So quite a bit more than that.

 

It would be like now with +99% global recharge.

 

 

[William Valence]

Just now, Steampunkette said:

And it still would be with the proposed change. With ultimately no real difference to IO builds. But a psychological change that weakens the power without weakening the character, overall.

It would be more likely to increase power than reduce it.

 

If the things you can do with perma-hasten can be done with inherant hasten replacement, and you get additional pool/power options on top of that, you're making a change for the sole purpose of allowing for hasten level results without having to spent the power/pool picks to get them.

[Steampunkette]

Just now, William Valence said:

It would be more likely to increase power than reduce it.

 

If the things you can do with perma-hasten can be done with inherant hasten replacement, and you get additional pool/power options on top of that, you're making a change for the sole purpose of allowing for hasten level results without having to spent the power/pool picks to get them.

The suggestion as it stands is 3 parts:

 

Reduce Hasten to a 25% Recharge Buff.

Add a 20% Recharge Buff to all Players.

Reduce Hasten's Cooldown time to 200 seconds.

 

On it's face it's a nerf. Hasten and the auto-grant only give 45% recharge rate. But at 200 seconds you can get Permahasten with 2 Recharge SOs.

 

And actually slotting for recharge allows you to double-stack. Bringing it back to 70%.

[Haijinx]

3 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Back then they could 6 slot hasten with no ED.  So quite a bit more than that.

 

It would be like now with +99% global recharge.

 

 

Well i mean as far as hasten goes.

[DR_Mechano]

7 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

And it still would be with the proposed change. With ultimately no real difference to IO builds. But a psychological change that weakens the power without weakening the character, overall.

See this is why I have no problem with your suggestion. I was railing against completely nerfing Hasten into oblivion just because it was popular which is what seemed to be the overarching goal of most here. 

 

As for what power I'd add in to compete with hasten. A Rage type toggle in the fighting pool, +30% damage and +10% to hit however it costs a decent amount of endurance to use per tick and requires you take both tough and weave. That is a decent chunk of bonus damage there and damage is something all ATs can use. That's just an idea off the top of my head. On my SS/Invuln brute I would totally drop hasten for a power like that and it's useful to all ATs.

 

Is it overpowered...well apparently just having recharge is overpowered so..yeah....

 

Edit: Also I noticed nobody answered my question of asking where nerfing hasten some how magically improves the health of the game can be proven...not Biostem (who actively avoided the question) or Steampunkette (who I think just missed it).

Edited September 26, 2019 by DR_Mechano

[macskull]

5 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

The suggestion as it stands is 3 parts:

 

Reduce Hasten to a 25% Recharge Buff.

Add a 20% Recharge Buff to all Players.

Reduce Hasten's Cooldown time to 200 seconds.

 

On it's face it's a nerf. Hasten and the auto-grant only give 45% recharge rate. But at 200 seconds you can get Permahasten with 2 Recharge SOs.

 

And actually slotting for recharge allows you to double-stack. Bringing it back to 70%.

Does that allow you to double-stack it for its entire duration? If not, it's a nerf.

[Steampunkette]

Just now, macskull said:

Does that allow you to double-stack it for its entire duration? If not, it's a nerf.

Yes. With enough Recharge (Basically Permahasten levels) it'll be a complete overlap, recharging every 60 seconds.

 

It'll be a nerf for the first 60 seconds, then it'll get up to full power and stay there as long as you've either got it autofiring or click it once per minute.

[Snakebit]

10 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

And it still would be with the proposed change. With ultimately no real difference to IO builds. But a psychological change that weakens the power without weakening the character, overall.

Then why bother?

 

Leave it alone and pump the work into the unreleased pools. I don't care if it takes 30 seconds to change, Hasten isn't broken, it isn't OP and nobody GAF about balance. It's been the standard since release, along with Health and Stamina. 

 

If you want to dump hasten as a pickable choice and give every toon a 70% recharge buff I'm ok with that, but after EVERYTHING in the development pipeline is done. 

[DR_Mechano]

Oh and nice thread title change there.

 

Incase people missed it the thread was titled "Delete Hasten" before it was changed.

[TheAdjustor]

12 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Back then they could 6 slot hasten with no ED.  So quite a bit more than that.

 

It would be like now with +99% global recharge.

 

 

Need a bullseye emoji

[Steampunkette]

 

1 minute ago, DR_Mechano said:

Oh and nice thread title change there.

 

Incase people missed it the thread was titled "Delete Hasten" before it was changed.

... I made a note about changing the title in the OP. Why are you trying to make a 'thing' of it? The suggestion changed, so so did the title.

[Starforge]

20 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

It's only now, with Set Bonuses, that Hasten has become the big bad that it is.

Big bad? Being a bit dramatic here aren't we?

[William Valence]

5 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

The suggestion as it stands is 3 parts:

 

Reduce Hasten to a 25% Recharge Buff.

Add a 20% Recharge Buff to all Players.

Reduce Hasten's Cooldown time to 200 seconds.

 

On it's face it's a nerf. Hasten and the auto-grant only give 45% recharge rate. But at 200 seconds you can get Permahasten with 2 Recharge SOs.

 

And actually slotting for recharge allows you to double-stack. Bringing it back to 70%.

It would take about +250% recharge to double perma, which is less than the +275% needed to perma current hasten.

 

And they get an autopower quickness for the times before they would have selected hasten.

 

I don't believe this suggestion does what you believe it does

[Corruption]

4 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

Yes. With enough Recharge (Basically Permahasten levels) it'll be a complete overlap, recharging every 60 seconds.

 

It'll be a nerf for the first 60 seconds, then it'll get up to full power and stay there as long as you've either got it autofiring or click it once per minute.

I don't understand what this proposed change is supposed to address. Who still wouldn't take Hasten? It would still be a must have power.

[DR_Mechano]

1 minute ago, Steampunkette said:

 

... I made a note about changing the title in the OP. Why are you trying to make a 'thing' of it? The suggestion changed, so so did the title.

Fair enough, I apologize. I had assumed the worst of you and you'd edited the title in order to make people look bad in that you'd suggested these alterations all along and people had over-reacted. It IS an all too common tactic I've seen on forums before but you kept the original post intact and amended it.

 

As said though...what can you provide that changing hasten would improve the game in any way? If so, how would it improve the game.

[Steampunkette]

1 minute ago, William Valence said:

It would take about +250% recharge to double perma, which is less than the +275% needed to perma current hasten.

 

And they get an autopower quickness for the times before they would have selected hasten.

 

I don't believe this suggestion does what you believe it does

Two things: 

1) Psychological change. If you've got 20% recharge buff, do you -really- need a click-recharge buff for 25% that recharges 3 minutes later? Sure you do, if you're building a recharge build. But for a lot of people who aren't -specifically- trying to build for recharge it appears less needed on it's face. It even looks like it's been nerfed with a 45% total, before double stacking.

2) It also helps to level the playing field for people who don't take Hasten, bringing the bottom up while not really moving the top very much.

Just now, Corruption said:

I don't understand what this proposed change is supposed to address. Who still wouldn't take Hasten? It would still be a must have power.

See above.

[Starforge]

1 minute ago, Steampunkette said:

2) It also helps to level the playing field for people who don't take Hasten, bringing the bottom up while not really moving the top very much.

If bringing the bottom up is the end goal, why not actually look at buffing under-performing sets like I suggested pages ago? That's going to do a ton more than a needless change to Hasten that I'd wager 99% of the player base would be against.

[Steampunkette]

Just now, Starforge said:

If bringing the bottom up is the end goal, why not actually look at buffing under-performing sets like I suggested pages ago? That's going to do a ton more than a needless change to Hasten that I'd wager 99% of the player base would be against.

If 99% of the playerbase was against a change that gave 100% of the playerbase +20% Recharge at all times and made Hasten marginally less powerful for 1 minute before it 'spun up' to full power I'd be STUNNED.

 

In no small part 'cause a lot of people would just be getting a minor buff.

 

And "Why not look"? Because it's not a Zero-Sum game. There's people talking over fixes for underperforming sets. There's people talking over fixes for underperforming ATs. This isn't Rocket Surgery, dude.

 

People can care about more than 1 thing at a time.

[Snakebit]

5 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

It also helps to level the playing field for people who don't take Hasten, bringing the bottom up while not really moving the top very much.

 

 

It already is level. If you team with a character that has hasten and you don't you enjoy an xp/min buff that you haven't done anything to earn. 

 

[Corruption]

So, you just want to buff people who don't take Hasten? Because I don't see how that 85% number is going to change. Also, while minor, I don't like the idea of having to activate the power more often.

Edited September 26, 2019 by Corruption

[macskull]

3 minutes ago, Corruption said:

So, you just want to buff people who don't take Hasten? Because I don't see how that 85% number is going to change.

Yep. Even with these proposed changes I'd expect Hasten to be something that 90% of builds still pick up at some point.

 

EDIT: Basically, as long as Hasten continues to be a single-pick power that provides a huge benefit to every single character regardless of build, a majority of players will still take it. The only way that's changing is if it gets significantly nerfed which I don't see happening and people would not like.

Edited September 26, 2019 by macskull

[Starforge]

Which is funny because I thought the point of this thread was too many people take Hasten? If that's still going to be the case, why not just make it inherent like the Fitness pool?